Recruiting AFL Draft Watch 2022 - Tsatas, Hayes, Davey x2, Munkara & Montgomerie

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[BrunoV]

Zach Reid played some of his best footy in the ruck
Cox played his best games underage as a forward

Do you believe Reid is a ruck? Are you arguing that he's not a key defender? How does that fit with our use of him?

As for Cox ant555 believes Cox would be a star defender based on what he saw. Better than Ridley at the same age.

What's your point at the end of this? That recruiting the guys, playing 3 of them in defence and 1 on the wing and delisting 2 after 2 years is good?

I've seen almost every game Reid, Eyre and Brand played at the lower level. There was barely any difference between them by the time Brand got it together and Eyre played in defence.

 

[ant555]

You know very well they all played best in defence.

I know very well they played in the spots they played. You can invent whatever you want to suit your narrative.

 

[ant555]

Do you believe Reid is a ruck? Are you arguing that he's not a key defender? How does that fit with our use of him?

As for Cox ant555 believes Cox would be a star defender based on what he saw. Better than Ridley at the same age.

What's your point at the end of this? That recruiting the guys, playing 3 of them in defence and 1 on the wing and delisting 2 after 2 years is good?

I've seen almost every game Reid, Eyre and Brand played at the lower level. There was barely any difference between them by the time Brand got it together and Eyre played in defence.

Did you see them before they where drafted ?
What happened after they had been on the list for a season and finally got to play VFL has zero relevance to what they where expecting when drafted.
Eyre played half a season forward before they moved him back to try and find some form.
Yes I did say Cox could be a star CHB. Does not change the fact he also played forward and played some good games there.
On top of that we have been playing a patch work defense for two seasons and you are wondering why they drafted 3 players who had played defense in one draft ?

 

[ant555]

Not really sure which or what your arguing here

We still have Cox, Reid, Zerk and Stewart on the list

I thought Stewart had shown a bit as a forward and preferred him there which probably means you dont need Weideman which would allow us to keep an Eyre or Brand on the list

Actually think Brand was showing himself to be a very capable intercept player down back in the VFL, not just a shutdown. I guess an AFL club will pick him up if he is a lock

What Bruno is arguing is fair, at the time many argued that 4 talls in the one draft wouldnt last long and was pointless. 3 were key defenders. I guess the club was happy if 2 of the 3 made it and Brand was hardly someone we spent large draft capital on but knowing he was coming means we couldve potentially altered our top end pick strategy...going smaller.

I guess if Zerk didnt come on leaps and bounds he probably wouldve been the one out and we couldve kept a Brand or Eyre

Reid, Cox and a Brand/Eyre couldve worked with Ridley as the 4th at some point down the line

The point is simple. Our defense was not ideal. They picked one KP defender. Brand. Two KP players who had played forward and back , Cox and Reid who had played back and ruck with a little forward. They also picked Eyre who at that stage was a forward and where he played in the VFL until they had to move him. Three of where not key defenders. Two of them had scope to play at both ends based on where they played before they where drafted.
We still need two KP defenders out of them. So why is it wrong they drafted that group of players.

 

[ant555]

This is a really strange argument, I thought we were all in agreement that Laverde and Ridley were playing too tall and we needed to get some key defensive options into the club.

Reckon far stranger moves like bringing in Jake Kelly, flagging that Weideman ‘could play back’ and trying Stewart in defense have caused the Brand and Eyre delistings anyway so it’s all jumping at shadows stuff.

There should have been plenty of room on the list to persist with both of them, Brand in particular didn’t have a massively high ceiling but was as good as a lock to make it at AFL level as a dour shut down type.

Kelly was easy to understand. Not a star but able to play his role on small forwards and a bit of a blue collar hard head. Something we have few of.

 

[andleanback]

Do you believe Reid is a ruck? Are you arguing that he's not a key defender? How does that fit with our use of him?

As for Cox ant555 believes Cox would be a star defender based on what he saw. Better than Ridley at the same age.

What's your point at the end of this? That recruiting the guys, playing 3 of them in defence and 1 on the wing and delisting 2 after 2 years is good?

I've seen almost every game Reid, Eyre and Brand played at the lower level. There was barely any difference between them by the time Brand got it together and Eyre played in defence.

No I don’t but you said they had all played their best footy as a defender which is incorrect. Reid will be a key defender but played some good footy in the ruck and up forward for gippy in his underage year.

I also agree with ant555 I watched cox play all his preseason games in 2020 before the pandemic hit and he was absolutely dominate as a key defender, taking intercept marks and killing contests.

That doesn’t change the fact that as an underager some his best games were as a key forward.

 

[Vindicater]

My ideal outcome.

Sheezel falls to our pick.
We trade 22 into a future 2nd and later points.
Davey X2.
Munkarra slips past 40.
We resign Eyre for a year.

 

[Cup_o_Jobe]

My ideal outcome.

Sheezel falls to our pick.
We trade 22 into a future 2nd and later points.
Davey X2.
Munkarra slips past 40.
We resign Eyre for a year.

My ideal is more fanciful (but hey, that's an ideal for ya)
1. Wardlaw slips to pick 4 (if not, we happily take Tsatas).
2. We trade 22 + F2 for Melbourne's 12 (Geelong grabbed Jefferson and the Dees are now targeting Barnett, you see). Phillpou's interviews spook the top 10 picks so he slips to 12.
3. A. Davey bid doesn't come until late 20s.
4. Neither Jayden or Munkara are bid on. We take both as rookies (Jayden as Cat A, Munkara as Cat B).
5. We invite a bunch of eager lads to train over summer for the SSP.

Jackets' swan song year ends with: Wardlaw/Tsatas, Phillipou, Davey, Davey, Munkara.

We tank 2023, Parish walks to Geelong, we get the double Reid sweepstakes. Our 2026 premiership spine is: Reid, Cox, Reid, Baldwin, Reid. Centre bounce attendees are: Draper, Hobbs, Reid, Phillipou/Perkins.

Have I just about synthesized all the dreams of this thread or have I missed something.

Oh, right. We actually trade back 4 to Saints for 9 and F1. Instead of Tsatas/Phillipou we end up with MacKenzie/Phillipou. Now I think we're complete.

 

[ant555]

My ideal outcome.

Sheezel falls to our pick.
We trade 22 into a future 2nd and later points.
Davey X2.
Munkarra slips past 40.
We resign Eyre for a year.

I would actually take Wardlaw over Sheezal. If your dream comes true we would be taking 4 small / medium forwards in one draft. I know it is a spot that needs filling desperately but all eggs in one basket ?

 

[Lads2023]

I really like Wardlaw and that his a passionate Essendon supporter, however the 3 hamstring injuries (while not big injuries) concerns me. Happy for him to go to north and we pick him up in a few years lol

 

[Yoda_]

This is a really strange argument, I thought we were all in agreement that Laverde and Ridley were playing too tall and we needed to get some key defensive options into the club.

Reckon far stranger moves like bringing in Jake Kelly, flagging that Weideman ‘could play back’ and trying Stewart in defense have caused the Brand and Eyre delistings anyway so it’s all jumping at shadows stuff.

There should have been plenty of room on the list to persist with both of them, Brand in particular didn’t have a massively high ceiling but was as good as a lock to make it at AFL level as a dour shut down type.

Keeping Stewart on top of getting Weidemann was odd, should have been enough room on the list for one of Stewart/Weid and one of Brand /Eyre

 

[Don Won]

Keeping Stewart on top of getting Weidemann was odd, should have been enough room on the list for one of Stewart/Weid and one of Brand /Eyre

Stewart decision was unrelated to weiderman - end of August. Weidemann decision was the pivotal one

 

[MiguelM]

Stewart decision was unrelated to weiderman - end of August. Weidemann decision was the pivotal one

Yeah, timing.

Just my 2c but I see Stewart as depth only. Clearly not a backman (plus we are stacked there) and Weiderman/Jones in front of him in fwd line.

He would have to have a huge season to be best 22, don't see it happening, would be happy to be proven wrong though.

 

[Keystone agony]

If E.Hewett or Jefferson are slipping through to mid to late teens. 14 onwards.

Im happy to offer up 22, F2 and F3 with maybe a late F3 (Pies, Swans, Dees ect) in return

 

[doug85]

If E.Hewett or Jefferson are slipping through to mid to late teens. 14 onwards.

Im happy to offer up 22, F2 and F3 with maybe a late F3 (Pies, Swans, Dees ect) in return

I reckon Hewett could be available at 25. Jefferson is rumoured to be heading to the dees, so probably no chance for us.

 

[Keystone agony]

I reckon Hewett could be available at 25. Jefferson is rumoured to be heading to the dees, so probably no chance for us.

Well maybe we are more interested in him at 22. Hard to see him getting past the eagles pick at 20 though so im happy to trade up and lock him away. Im a big Hewett fan have him well in the top 10

Twomeys latest regarding Hewett; A very interesting one to track. Essendon has done its work on him but most likely would be if the Bombers moved back from No.4. St Kilda has also been looking at Hewett, while Carlton and West Coast could be a chance. Greater Western Sydney would likely consider if available in the teens and he could get through to deeper into the first round


Twomeys latest regarding Jefferson;
Melbourne has been linked to Jefferson at pick No.13. Sydney and the Giants could consider him given they have multiple picks but he could also be available deeper into the top 20.

You would think too many clubs like Dees, Pies, GWS, Sydney would want Jefferson than to do a trade. Youd think hes perfect for the dees. Needs years to develop in the VFL which the dees can offer for atleast 2 years

 

[BrunoV]

No, it requires far more skill to beat someone when you're playing as a forward. It is why we see these dominating intercept defenders go to water when the opposition puts a defensive forward on them.

Defence only requires athletic capabilities and concentration.

We're in agreement.

Juniors who are key forwards play forward essentially exclusively.

I've not read anything of Max King (Ben seemingly only played back because of Max's presence), McDonald, Amiss, Cadman, McKay, Curnow, Lynch, Daniher, Patton, Scache, Cameron or Boyd playing defence as juniors. Playing a quarter or a game here and there is not playing defence. Playing defence is having done it for half a year to the point that its second nature.

Guys like Ridley, Carlisle, Stewart and Hurley are the ones I can name off the top of my head. Played forward and back at something like 30/70 or 50/50. Interesting Stewart is probably the forward success that never was due to injury.

My impression is that the good defenders get swung forward to try to make things happen. It makes sense to me because if dominant making in defence works forward you've got a player whose virtually a unicorn these days.

Granted that there are lots of players who don't end up making it as forwards who play defence. That's usually career saving because they've been tried forward for so long but it hasn't worked.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

What does that even mean?
Polec showed enough class to go pick 5 at the same age.

Defecting back to Adelaide after Brisbane developed him. Classless.

 

[BrunoV]

I know very well they played in the spots they played. You can invent whatever you want to suit your narrative.

You're always talking about the importance of having 'that draft' where a club sets a list up, except when you're trying to justify picking 4 players who were either key defenders or played their best footy as key defenders. That's been my standard all along as I thought having players in natural positions was important.

I'd say a really good way to have a list defining draft is to take a balanced approach. Taking a blend of players you can fit onto the list and then into a team.

I don't even know why you are arguing about this. You've raved about the potential of Cox in defence based on what you saw, and don't seem to believe he can learn the role of wingman, Reid is a defender (it's poor satire to even suggest he will make it as a ruck with his build) and you watched and commented on Eyre getting it together in defence.

Mahoney will get time and will be judged in time. As things stand we're almost 3 years into a rebuild and we've:

- wasted a top 10 pick on a KPD, knowing that we had access to 2 guys who were perfectly capable KPDs later in that draft;

- we then moved on both of those KPDs following giving BZT a 2 year deal the year after recruiting 4 KPDs, signing Stewart for 2 years, with Mahoney saying he's a defender and that's saying nothing about his injury history, and bringing in Weidemann;

- had our 2021 draft. Have you looked at our 2021 draft? Lord is a mile away and is odds on to be cut at the end of his second year, McDonagh is gone. If Voss, a guy you won't loose any sleep over not making it because he is a rookie, doesn't make it the second draft of our rebuild will deliver 1 player. You can't fall back on Martin, Tex or any mid season draftees because we didn't tank a draft for players who we didn't know would be available (or would be fit enough to even consider signing as SSPs);

- we've gotten to the third draft and don't have the list spots for any flexibility, committed to 3 players unless we're lucky enough that no one bids on Munkara and we can sign him as a cat B. We're going to be the first club in this new era of pick valuation that is going to pay fair value for a first round quality player we have guaranteed access too.

And then I recall your comments about the 2023 best 22s. Our list management is horrendous and Mahoney has been there long enough to be questioned for his part in the idiocy. Where are the Petracca, Brayshaw and Oliver? That's what Melbourne was built on and, as I recall, it was Roos who put his foot down demanding midfield competitors.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I'm completely onboard the Phillipou train. Watched King Richard on a plane last night and it reinforced to me how arrogance in sportspeople can be a very good thing.

Also, this:

The highly-touted SA prospect’s desire to be a one-club player

“I’ve always been a guy that’s wanted to go to one club and have a long career there.”

www.sen.com.au

South Australian midfielder Mattaes Phillipou has voiced his desire to become a one-club player with whichever organisation he gets drafted to.

With multiple players opting to return to their home state throughout the trade period, the ‘go-home factor’ has been a topic rife with discussion, yet the young prospect doesn’t see himself following that path.

“I’ve always been a guy that’s wanted to go to one club and have a long career there,” he told Sportsday SA.

“I’ve studied Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan quite heavily coming through, being a basketball guy, looking at those two characters they’re very loyal and that’s how I aspire to be like with whichever club I get drafted to.

“I see myself taking an opportunity interstate and then staying there for a very long time.”

 

[The Prosecutor]

I'm completely onboard the Phillipou train. Watched King Richard on a plane last night and it reinforced to me how arrogance in sportspeople can be a very good thing.

Also, this:

The highly-touted SA prospect’s desire to be a one-club player

“I’ve always been a guy that’s wanted to go to one club and have a long career there.”

www.sen.com.au

I mean in fairness, JHF was sleeping in a Norf jumper before the draft.

 

[Interested01!]

Not really sure which or what your arguing here

We still have Cox, Reid, Zerk and Stewart on the list

I thought Stewart had shown a bit as a forward and preferred him there which probably means you dont need Weideman which would allow us to keep an Eyre or Brand on the list

Actually think Brand was showing himself to be a very capable intercept player down back in the VFL, not just a shutdown. I guess an AFL club will pick him up if he is a lock

What Bruno is arguing is fair, at the time many argued that 4 talls in the one draft wouldnt last long and was pointless. 3 were key defenders. I guess the club was happy if 2 of the 3 made it and Brand was hardly someone we spent large draft capital on but knowing he was coming means we couldve potentially altered our top end pick strategy...going smaller.

I guess if Zerk didnt come on leaps and bounds he probably wouldve been the one out and we couldve kept a Brand or Eyre

Reid, Cox and a Brand/Eyre couldve worked with Ridley as the 4th at some point down the line

You would like to think 4 years in the system at an elite level he had the time to develop, improve, adapt and build endurance, some were not that lucky! I hope he continues to do well always like BZT!

 

[The Prosecutor]

Rival clubs believe the Bombers are open to trading down the order, knowing big-bodied midfielder Phillipou could still be available outside the top 10.

St Kilda, who have the 10th pick, are known to be keen to move up but would have to give up next year’s first-round selection to do so - and that is a steep price, given the excitement about the 2023 class.

Bombers shape as draft wildcards in top-10 calculations

Essendon are set to shape the top 10 selections at the AFL draft, with rival clubs still uncertain which direction the Bombers will go.

www.theage.com.au

 

[ant555]

You're always talking about the importance of having 'that draft' where a club sets a list up, except when you're trying to justify picking 4 players who were either key defenders or played their best footy as key defenders. That's been my standard all along as I thought having players in natural positions was important.

I'd say a really good way to have a list defining draft is to take a balanced approach. Taking a blend of players you can fit onto the list and then into a team.

I don't even know why you are arguing about this. You've raved about the potential of Cox in defence based on what you saw, and don't seem to believe he can learn the role of wingman, Reid is a defender (it's poor satire to even suggest he will make it as a ruck with his build) and you watched and commented on Eyre getting it together in defence.

Mahoney will get time and will be judged in time. As things stand we're almost 3 years into a rebuild and we've:

- wasted a top 10 pick on a KPD, knowing that we had access to 2 guys who were perfectly capable KPDs later in that draft;

- we then moved on both of those KPDs following giving BZT a 2 year deal the year after recruiting 4 KPDs, signing Stewart for 2 years, with Mahoney saying he's a defender and that's saying nothing about his injury history, and bringing in Weidemann;

- had our 2021 draft. Have you looked at our 2021 draft? Lord is a mile away and is odds on to be cut at the end of his second year, McDonagh is gone. If Voss, a guy you won't loose any sleep over not making it because he is a rookie, doesn't make it the second draft of our rebuild will deliver 1 player. You can't fall back on Martin, Tex or any mid season draftees because we didn't tank a draft for players who we didn't know would be available (or would be fit enough to even consider signing as SSPs);

- we've gotten to the third draft and don't have the list spots for any flexibility, committed to 3 players unless we're lucky enough that no one bids on Munkara and we can sign him as a cat B. We're going to be the first club in this new era of pick valuation that is going to pay fair value for a first round quality player we have guaranteed access too.

And then I recall your comments about the 2023 best 22s. Our list management is horrendous and Mahoney has been there long enough to be questioned for his part in the idiocy. Where are the Petracca, Brayshaw and Oliver? That's what Melbourne was built on and, as I recall, it was Roos who put his foot down demanding midfield competitors.

I am arguing about for the simple reason is I do not agree with how you are reading it.

Despite the fact I think Cox can be a star at CHB he was a duel end player when he was drafted. He had played very good footy at both ends.

Not sure we have wasted a pick on Reid. Not saying he is a lock but it is not like our KPD situation is totally sorted.

Brand showed a bit this year but he was hardly a lock.

Eyre was drafted as a forward. I liked what we saw as a back. He was playing forward when BZT was given a new contract. He is a bit unlucky . His spot went to Walla. He may still get a spot.

Stewart is back up.

You can talk about Tex and Martin as spots where left on the list and both of them filled them. They where a part of the list management. Yes McDonagh did not make it and I do not think that Lord will make either. However the simple fact is Hobbs , Wanganeen , Martin and D'Ambrosio have been added to the list. You can not spin it any other way. These are all list management decisions. To say otherwise is total rubbish.

It is also total rubbish to question Mahoney on the list build this early. You mention Petrracca and Brayshaw and Oliver. Well they did not all come in one draft and they came in two drafts and the Oliver draft has only given them Oliver now with the rest not on their list now. Mahoney has been in control for 1 draft. He would have had input as far as Baldwin and Waterman and their SSP picks.
Hobbs. Martin . Wanganeen. Voss . D'Ambrosio . Baldwin are players from his watch. The fact is Mahoney had pretty much zero impact on the 2020 draft. He was appointed in December 2020 (8th) . The draft was 9th and 10th of Dec.

Melbourne did not hit every draft either. In fact they had some complete misses. Have a look. You will see some really weird selections as well. The plan they came up with was not Paul Ros putting his foot down. It was Mahoney , Taylor , Roos and Goodwin working together to change the culture of a footy club and a draft strategy that has seen them have number 1 picks and a bunch of players taken top 20 yet still fail to deliver.

Brand and Eyre are a bit unlucky IMO. Brand showed a bit i the VFL although not as much as BZT did. If Eyre had been able to hold a mark as a forward he would have played at AFL level this year in the back half. Trouble is he did not. I still rate his potential. However I am not going to start yelling at the clouds because we have kept Stewart as a back up or given BTZ a contract which he actually showed last year he could well be up to it. Personally I would not have kept Stewart or Phillips for that matter and have said so previously. That would have made things a bit easier list wise but I also know that you never get more than 70% of your list decisions right.

Our list management has been horrendous but it is not going to be fixed in 1 draft. It is also not going to be fixed going into the third season of a rebuild. To add to this the list will be further shaped by the new coach which may well add another year on things. Listen to anyone and they will tell you continually changing coaches sets back your list management as you have coaches with different ideas on different players and who they want to keep.

The reason our list management is still a mess is as follows . All from the last 5 years.

Worsfold had limited input to the drafting side of things through his choice.

Dan Richardson and Dodoro had different ideas which meant we burnt a footy manager and now we are at the stage where the new one has been in the seat for just under 2 years.

Dodoro being just an average list manager that was given too much unchallenged control.

Having to move Truck on. This has lead to a holding situation with no coach molding the list at the end of this year.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but is there an expectation that a club will let another club know they'll take/bid on an NGA player?