Club History AFL greats Kevin Sheedy and Terry Daniher named in Krakouer brothers' racism class action

[ghostdog]

Bit rich coming from someone who has judged the majority of society as racist.

Anyway agree to disagree. Moving on.

Convenient.

 

[Howard Moon]

One of the most powerful footy show moments was Dermies unreserved apology to Chris Lewis, that's what a real man does, not hide behind the era.

 

[ant555]

I mean, it's before the court.

It's not unusual for the era. It pre-dates Sheeds' Dreamtime brainwave by some years. Putrid if true. Nothing surprises me anymore.

There will be a lot of truth in it simply because racism by ignorance was simply how it was . I doubt very much these guys where genuine racists not that it excuses it but it highlights why calling it out is important. Virtually no one called it out. I saw it first hand with my cousin when we where growing up . I got into a number of scraps because of it . At least we have moved some way to eliminating the ignorant part .

 

[Vander18]

This is interesting.

I have no doubt they were racially abused frequently and vigorously, as all other indigenous players at the time would have been - especially the ones who could seriously play.

No idea how these things work but would it be correct to think this will get bigger with other players adding themselves to the class action?

 

[ant555]

This is interesting.

I have no doubt they were racially abused frequently and vigorously, as all other indigenous players at the time would have been - especially the ones who could seriously play.

No idea how these things work but would it be correct to think this will get bigger with other players adding themselves to the class action?

You would think it will get bigger given it is how it was and real change did not begin until the mid nineties.

 

[ghostdog]

There will be a lot of truth in it simply because racism by ignorance was simply how it was . I doubt very much these guys where genuine racists not that it excuses it but it highlights why calling it out is important. Virtually no one called it out. I saw it first hand with my cousin when we where growing up . I got into a number of scraps because of it . At least we have moved some way to eliminating the ignorant part .

The problem I have with the racism by ignorance is that it excuses the jokes and mockery as 'harmless fun.' That positions the victim to feel like a bad sport or not one of the boys if they speak up about it, and to never feel comfortable or a sense of belonging if they don't. Generally they don't, looking for the smoothest way forward and choosing instead to suffer in silence. That sends the wrong message to those funny racist guys that their non-white mate is okay with it, hence, "Some of my best friends are [insert race here]."

Then when a serious conversation about race comes up, the line that the ignorant racist often qualifies their casual ignorant racism with with said silent victim is "Not saying you're like them though..."

 

[Mootsy]

when will this club hoodoo end...

 

[Happyskeret]

It was bad in the country too in those times and it was draining calling people out as it usually resulted in you getting the cold shoulder and ostracised. Cant imagine what it was like for the victims. I do know it hurt them badly. I have no regrets and was glad I rose above the pack mentality.

 

[ant555]

The problem I have with the racism by ignorance is that it excuses the jokes and mockery as 'harmless fun.' That positions the victim to feel like a bad sport or not one of the boys if they speak up about it, and to never feel comfortable or a sense of belonging if they don't. Generally they don't, looking for the smoothest way forward and choosing instead to suffer in silence. That sends the wrong message to those funny racist guys that their non-white mate is okay with it, hence, "Some of my best friends are [insert race here]."

Then when a serious conversation about race comes up, the line that the ignorant racist often qualifies their casual ignorant racism with with said silent victim is "Not saying you're like them though..."

Your view is different to mine then. Racism by ignorance is simply what it is. It is an ignorance of the situation. Most people are not genuine racists but they go with what they learn which is why ignorance is not as common as it used to be. As people learn they know what is not acceptable. It is real. Not saying it is right. I grew up side by side with my cousin and best mate taking it on through the 80's and 90's as young men. It was not directed at me as I am white and you could not tell I had indigenous heritage but my cousin who was born on the same day as me and who I consider my brother had to wear it.
Ignorant racism is real. There is no excuse for it but it does not 100% stem from people who are actually racist. It comes from how society developed in this country and how it was accepted. You only have to look now that there is a change in attitude people accept what happened was wrong and being ignorant is less of an issue an the more genuine racists are being seen.
As most know we still have a way to go.
Anyone spinning a line like your last line is a racist. Plain and simple. They are not ignorant because of how society was when they where brought up. They are simply racist.

 

[Happyskeret]

If the allegations are true which I am not asserting they are, the most disappointing aspect for me would be Sheedy’s involvement. That would be an absolute shame considering the good strides he took to promote indigenous culture after that period.

 

[ant555]

If the allegations are true which I am not asserting they are, the most disappointing aspect for me would be Sheedy’s involvement. That would be an absolute shame considering the good strides he took to promote indigenous culture after that period.

I think you would be surprised at how many who are right behind First Nations people now did make similar comments. It is how it was. It was part of society and until players started to draw a line in the sand it was prevalent. Sheedy was brought up in a time where it was acceptable against not just First Nations people but immigrants as well. I do not find it disappointing that he may have vilified people. I find it encouraging that he can see what was going on in that era and actually lead they way well before it was common practice.
Kids learn behaviors from their parents and we are a country founded on colonialism so it was always going to be a long road.
I would say 100% as each generation comes along now casual racism becomes less and less accepted and the real racists are being exposed.

 

[Happyskeret]

I think you would be surprised at how many who are right behind First Nations people now did make similar comments. It is how it was. It was part of society and until players started to draw a line in the sand it was prevalent. Sheedy was brought up in a time where it was acceptable against not just First Nations people but immigrants as well. I do not find it disappointing that he may have vilified people. I find it encouraging that he can see what was going on in that era and actually lead they way well before it was common practice.
Kids learn behaviors from their parents and we are a country founded on colonialism so it was always going to be a long road.
I would say 100% as each generation comes along now casual racism becomes less and less accepted and the real racists are being exposed.

I disagree with you as I lived in a time of how it was but I was able to know it for what it really was. It wasn’t in my bones to utter such words because of peer pressure or because of anything really. It was really below the belt stuff even back then imo. I don’t think it undoes the good he did if proven true but if true it deserves to be called out.

 

[faible]

If the allegations are true which I am not asserting they are, the most disappointing aspect for me would be Sheedy’s involvement. That would be an absolute shame considering the good strides he took to promote indigenous culture after that period.

Probably a good illustration that people aren’t all good or all bad. That kind of abuse was sadly commonplace at the time, and still far too common today.

If Sheedy was able to recognise that it wasn’t ok and make an effort to do better then at least that shows some level of learning and growth.

 

[eth-dog]

Probably a good illustration that people aren’t all good or all bad. That kind of abuse was sadly commonplace at the time, and still far too common today.

If Sheedy was able to recognise that it wasn’t ok and make an effort to do better then at least that shows some level of learning and growth.

Basically this.

 

[Happyskeret]

Probably a good illustration that people aren’t all good or all bad. That kind of abuse was sadly commonplace at the time, and still far too common today.

If Sheedy was able to recognise that it wasn’t ok and make an effort to do better then at least that shows some level of learning and growth.

I agree with the statement that most people aren’t pure evil or pure good however most people are sheep especially back then. I can’t relate to the offenders because I never found it in my soul to offend! At the end of the day it was just a game Maybe I was super aware but I was dumbstruck why people had to be educated about something to me that was pretty common sense although I did hear the term that common sense isn’t always that common. I can tell you though to fight back against it was like going against a Tsunami. You can see with the Adam Goodes debacle how ingrained people were. Does anyone remember it took the AFL like 10 weeks before they questioned the behaviour! I’m so glad how far they come I can’t believe it actually. Stil more work to do.

 

[ant555]

I disagree with you as I lived in a time of how it was but I was able to know it for what it really was. It wasn’t in my bones to utter such words because of peer pressure or because of anything really. It was really below the belt stuff even back then imo. I don’t think it undoes the good he did if proven true but if true it deserves to be called out.

I have mentioned that I saw it up close and personal as well during that time as a kid in the 70's and 80's growing up along side my best mate and cousin . I heard it all . I called it out and got in fights about it. It was horribly wrong for sure but society was what it was and it was not called out back then. I know how bad it was. My family hid their Indigenous heritage for years because of it. I did not find out my great grandma was Italian / Aboriginal until I was 16. We only ever knew about the Italian side. I just do not find it disappointing that people who may have offended have seen the error of their ways.

 

[faible]

I agree with the statement that most people aren’t pure evil or pure good however most people are sheep especially back then. I can’t relate to the offenders because I never found it in my soul to offend! At the end of the day it was just a game Maybe I was super aware but I was dumbstruck why people had to be educated about something to me that was pretty common sense although I did hear the term that common sense isn’t always that common. I can tell you though to fight back against it was like going against a Tsunami. You can see with the Adam Goodes debacle how ingrained people were. Does anyone remember it took the AFL like 10 weeks before they questioned the behaviour! I’m so glad how far they come I can’t believe it actually. Stil more work to do.

Some people have a win at all costs mentality I suppose, the idea that you can say anything or do anything so long as you win.

I’d like to think we know better now, that you can still win but you don’t have to denigrate people along the way. That more people would be like you and not participate in something that was obviously not ‘right’ even if it was common.

The Aboriginal community has brought something special to the game we all love watching, I can’t imagine ever wanting to put them down or drive them out of the sport (or elsewhere).

 

[ghostdog]

So this is what I reckon has happened re: Sheedy, or something similar; I wrote this on the main board;


Re: Sheedy, the era of the claim predates Longy and Monkhorst I think, and therefore Dreamtime at the G. It could be that he'd never given his racism much thought until he saw the impacts on Michael Long, then sought to correct things. That could explain why he went hard to bring the Dreamtime game to fruition.

That of course doesn't exonerate him, and truth-telling needs to happen, for him and the Krakouer brothers; it may explain the paradox of his sentiment though. People can change.

Your view is different to mine then. Racism by ignorance is simply what it is. It is an ignorance of the situation. Most people are not genuine racists but they go with what they learn which is why ignorance is not as common as it used to be. As people learn they know what is not acceptable. It is real. Not saying it is right. I grew up side by side with my cousin and best mate taking it on through the 80's and 90's as young men. It was not directed at me as I am white and you could not tell I had indigenous heritage but my cousin who was born on the same day as me and who I consider my brother had to wear it.
Ignorant racism is real. There is no excuse for it but it does not 100% stem from people who are actually racist. It comes from how society developed in this country and how it was accepted. You only have to look now that there is a change in attitude people accept what happened was wrong and being ignorant is less of an issue an the more genuine racists are being seen.
As most know we still have a way to go.
Anyone spinning a line like your last line is a racist. Plain and simple. They are not ignorant because of how society was when they where brought up. They are simply racist.

What you've described here is what I'd call institutionalised racism. I agree that people are ignorant of it; they think it's okay because our social institutions have allowed it to flourish instead of calling it out. It has happened everywhere in our country, in all of our institutions including education, but it's not surprising; the white Australia policy was only rescinded in 1973. You're right though, education has improved. There are still gaps of disadvantage to close though.

 

[NAB777]

Tim Watson has just unequivocally come out & said the Sheedy stuff isn't true.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Sheedy is accused of telling one of the Krakouer brothers that he would encourage his players to target them racially. Maybe Sheeds meant yes target them and try to get in their heads but not through racial abuse.

Then again early 80s who knows, like others have said maybe he learned his lesson. But then to admit this to one of the Krakouers years later after all the good he did? I really find that hard to believe from Sheeds.

 

[Vindicater]

I am shocked to be sitting here.

 

[I Remember Bluey]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/mark-robinson-kevin-sheedys-contribution-to-and-celebration-of-indigenous-culture-in-football-is-unmatched/news-story/2dd71f736eeaa048e0bc87cbb6c280ce

Mark Robinson: Kevin Sheedy’s contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched​

When he was accused of racial abuse, it felt like a stake through Kevin Sheedy’s heart. His contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched, writes Mark Robinson.

When Kevin Sheedy was told that he had been accused of racial abuse, it felt like a stake through his heart and through everything he had accomplished for Indigenous people for the past 50 years.
Stunned doesn’t go close to describing his reaction.

He was angry and most of all was saddened. He spoke briefly on Sunday and asked not to be quoted. But as his grandchildren splashed around in the pool at home in front of him, you could tell.

His voice lacked the enthusiasm and playfulness that almost always accompanies a Sheedy conversation. This hurt him. Perhaps more than losing a Grand Final.

Sheedy has created more front pages for football than probably anyone who has served the game, and this time he was in the crosshairs.

The headline might as well have been that Sheedy is a racist.

All this from a comment, allegedly made at a sportsmen’s night in 2017, that Sheedy encouraged his players to abuse Jim and Phil Krakouer in the 1980s to gain a tactical advantage.

It’s flimsy.

But mud sticks because the internet never forgets.

And that’s jarring because his good outweighs his bad 100,000-1.

Michael Long and Kevin Sheedy. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Andrew Henshaw

Undoubtedly, the brothers were dealt with appallingly through that time. The world was a naive and nasty place then. The words attributed to a bunch of Essendon players in the class action were commonplace, and not only on the footy field.

Thankfully, as education became paramount, vilification became real and punishable in football.

The AFL was the first sporting organisation in the world to introduce an anti-vilification code. That was in 1995. The AFL couldn’t right the wrongs of the past, but it sure as hell wanted to shape the future.

Sheedy was part of that.

As coach of Essendon, he took the club around Australia. From Port Lincoln to Geraldton. From Mildura to the Tiwi Islands.

He’s been to more remote communities in Western Australia and Northern Territory than every Prime Minister combined.

He engaged Indigenous Australians. He offered hope. If Michael Long from the Tiwis could make it to Melbourne, so could they.

He helped create traineeships and school scholarships and, with then Essendon official Simon Matthews, pioneered the Dreamtime blockbuster between the Bombers and Richmond at the MCG.

His contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched.

And now he’s accused of racial abuse.

Sheedy has taken the game around Australia. Picture: Alex Coppel.

The class action against the AFL might well lead to pay outs for the Krakouer brothers and the Supreme Court might not be the place to determine that. Mediation has to be the first play.

It will be complex because the 1980s were a free-for-all for racism compared to today’s standards.

Can the AFL – the semi-professional VFL in those days – be held responsible for the community, government, business and school attitudes back then?

Maybe Sheedy said those things. He says he didn’t.

And people close to Phil Krakouer say he wouldn’t make it up.

Still, it must be traumatic for him and certainly it has devastated Sheedy.

It came a week after he agreed to another venture in his Iconic football book series. There’s been the best-selling list of the greatest coaches and players, the icons of footy, and the greatest sportsmen of Australia.

​

The title of this one?

The Greatest Indigenous Players.

He is still planning to pen it.

 

[citizen-erased]

Tim Watson has just unequivocally come out & said the Sheedy stuff isn't true.

Tim should sit back on this one and let the process play out (you'd think he'd have learned that after the meddling in the drugs stuff).
This matter is between the Krakouer brothers and the people they've accused.
It does not need a media kangaroo court. Will help nothing and only serve egos.

 

[citizen-erased]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/mark-robinson-kevin-sheedys-contribution-to-and-celebration-of-indigenous-culture-in-football-is-unmatched/news-story/2dd71f736eeaa048e0bc87cbb6c280ce

Mark Robinson: Kevin Sheedy’s contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched​

When he was accused of racial abuse, it felt like a stake through Kevin Sheedy’s heart. His contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched, writes Mark Robinson.

When Kevin Sheedy was told that he had been accused of racial abuse, it felt like a stake through his heart and through everything he had accomplished for Indigenous people for the past 50 years.
Stunned doesn’t go close to describing his reaction.

He was angry and most of all was saddened. He spoke briefly on Sunday and asked not to be quoted. But as his grandchildren splashed around in the pool at home in front of him, you could tell.

His voice lacked the enthusiasm and playfulness that almost always accompanies a Sheedy conversation. This hurt him. Perhaps more than losing a Grand Final.

Sheedy has created more front pages for football than probably anyone who has served the game, and this time he was in the crosshairs.

The headline might as well have been that Sheedy is a racist.

All this from a comment, allegedly made at a sportsmen’s night in 2017, that Sheedy encouraged his players to abuse Jim and Phil Krakouer in the 1980s to gain a tactical advantage.

It’s flimsy.

But mud sticks because the internet never forgets.

And that’s jarring because his good outweighs his bad 100,000-1.

Michael Long and Kevin Sheedy. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Andrew Henshaw

Undoubtedly, the brothers were dealt with appallingly through that time. The world was a naive and nasty place then. The words attributed to a bunch of Essendon players in the class action were commonplace, and not only on the footy field.

Thankfully, as education became paramount, vilification became real and punishable in football.

The AFL was the first sporting organisation in the world to introduce an anti-vilification code. That was in 1995. The AFL couldn’t right the wrongs of the past, but it sure as hell wanted to shape the future.

Sheedy was part of that.

As coach of Essendon, he took the club around Australia. From Port Lincoln to Geraldton. From Mildura to the Tiwi Islands.

He’s been to more remote communities in Western Australia and Northern Territory than every Prime Minister combined.

He engaged Indigenous Australians. He offered hope. If Michael Long from the Tiwis could make it to Melbourne, so could they.

He helped create traineeships and school scholarships and, with then Essendon official Simon Matthews, pioneered the Dreamtime blockbuster between the Bombers and Richmond at the MCG.

His contribution to and celebration of Indigenous culture in football is unmatched.

And now he’s accused of racial abuse.

Sheedy has taken the game around Australia. Picture: Alex Coppel.

The class action against the AFL might well lead to pay outs for the Krakouer brothers and the Supreme Court might not be the place to determine that. Mediation has to be the first play.

It will be complex because the 1980s were a free-for-all for racism compared to today’s standards.

Can the AFL – the semi-professional VFL in those days – be held responsible for the community, government, business and school attitudes back then?

Maybe Sheedy said those things. He says he didn’t.

And people close to Phil Krakouer say he wouldn’t make it up.

Still, it must be traumatic for him and certainly it has devastated Sheedy.

It came a week after he agreed to another venture in his Iconic football book series. There’s been the best-selling list of the greatest coaches and players, the icons of footy, and the greatest sportsmen of Australia.

​

The title of this one?

The Greatest Indigenous Players.

He is still planning to pen it.

Tim should sit back on this one and let the process play out (you'd think he'd have learned that after the meddling in the drugs stuff).
This matter is between the Krakouer brothers and the people they've accused.
It does not need a media kangaroo court. Will help nothing and only serve egos.

Robbo too.
Sheeds machine in full swing it seems.

 

[NAB777]

Tim should sit back on this one and let the process play out (you'd think he'd have learned that after the meddling in the drugs stuff).
This matter is between the Krakouer brothers and the people they've accused.
It does not need a media kangaroo court. Will help nothing and only serve egos.

Totally disagree.