All Australian thread 2015

[Scotland]

Johnson played 20 games in 07. 15 games in 06 but he didn't make it that year.

Still just Ablett at this stage.

Stevie J played 3 finals in 2007, so just 17 H&A games.

I know Gary Ablett Sr only played 17 games in 1993 and made it. He did kick 124 goals though.

 

[Scotland]

Ablett and Franklin. Pretty rare company.

There could well be others but I would think the rarity of it speaks to the calibre of player and season that is generally required.

Apparently Brett Deledio is that good.

Apparently.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Apparently Brett Deledio is that good.

Apparently.

Sure is.

 

[A Swallow]

Sure is.

Hahaha

 

[Ron The Bear]

Changed clubs after being named AA since 1991

2015 Patrick Dangerfield Ad-Ge* (rover)
2011 Gary Ablett jnr Ge-GC (rover)
2010 Brendan Fevola Ca-Br (full forward)
1996 Darren Jarman Ha-Ad (forward pocket)
1994 Ben Allan Ha-Fr (forward pocket)
1993 Alastair Lynch Fi-Br (full back)

 

[Bollox]

I agree with this. Jack Riewoldt is a case in point. Whether you think he deserved his spot or not there is a clear consensus that this was his best year. Yet he scored less goals this year than any of the previous 5. How is this? Because he's been playing further up the ground and the emergence of Vickery as a 2 goal a game player, along with a range of other goal targets, has justified him being a decoy more often.
Stats are useful, but only if you use them in context, taking into account variables like game style and the nature of the opposition.

Despite what many of us believe re less delineation between a FF and a CHF, the selectors still treat CHF as the most difficult slot on the field and are not swayed by simply picking #1,#2 or #3 in Coleman and jamming them both into FF and CHF.
CHF is still a slot they prefer a marking target that is mobile and constantly presenting. He will invariably kick less than a FF due to wider/tougher shots and distance, but marking stats and to a lesser extent how much ball they've had go right to the core of their thinking. It may seem old school but it is still absolutely relevant.
They place enormous value on picking the CHF each season.
There is still the odd season where you simply cant ignore a cpl of standouts that are parked closer to goal but no reason they wont keep on picking one in a FP. Same goes for a ruckman picked in a FP that may have kicked a goal a game plus type season. If Natanui for instance kicked maybe 25-30 for the season he likely would have shunted one of the FP's out or to the bench.

The premier KPF this season though was definitely a FF which immediately frees up CHF....it was not a strong season for KPF's and for my thinking the Number 2/3/4 Coleman type KPF's didnt really have standout AA quality seasons that begged selection, and would have only made it on a next best basis rather than on brilliant performance.

To me they got CHF correct once again. They do that premier slot very well.

 

[A Swallow]

As I said in the Brownlow thread;

Rioli 5 votes
Deledio 8 votes
Kennedy 25 votes

Confirmed rubbish selections.

 

[Forward Press]

As I said in the Brownlow thread;

Rioli 5 votes
Deledio 8 votes
Kennedy 25 votes

Confirmed rubbish selections.

Wingard 6 votes. Rance 8 votes. Shaw not even one. I can go on.

Are they all undeserving?

Brownlows are a midfielder's award. And if you've been 4th-5th best all year you will be in AA contention but barely poll and Brownlows.

 

[A Swallow]

Wingard 6 votes. Rance 8 votes. Shaw not even one. I can go on.

Are they all undeserving?

Brownlows are a midfielder's award. And if you've been 4th-5th best all year you will be in AA contention but barely poll and Brownlows.

Huh? Kennedy polled 25 votes. Priddis polling 26 last year being the most recent farce from the panel. Rioli nowhere near AA and Deledio also VERY lucky.

 

[Forward Press]

Huh? Kennedy polled 25 votes. Priddis polling 26 last year being the most recent farce from the panel. Rioli nowhere near AA and Deledio also VERY lucky.

You can easily find anomalies in AA vs Brownlow because both are assessed via very different ways. As I stated above:

Brownlows are a midfielder's award. And if you've been 4th-5th best all year you will be in AA contention but barely poll in Brownlows.

 

[cyril4brownlow]

As I said in the Brownlow thread;

Rioli 5 votes
Deledio 8 votes
Kennedy 25 votes

Confirmed rubbish selections.

So you are calling the opinions of a panel of experts rubbish because they tend to have a different outcome to the umpire voted Brownlow. Why don't you call the umpires rubbish for not having a more similar spread of votes corresponding with the All Australian team? Do you use your brain to try and make an argument or do you just look for any numbers that may have a tiny correlation to your point and then try and use it as evidence. Congratulations, you confirmed nothing but your lack of intellect.

Also, Rioli got 7 votes you donkey.

 

[A Swallow]

You can easily find anomalies in AA vs Brownlow because both are assessed via very different ways. As I stated above:

You're probably spot on, I just wanted to take the opportunity to have a dip at Cyril and Deledio - though I do genuinely think they both shouldn't have been in the side.

 

[eaglespremiers]

I just wanted to take the opportunity to have a dip at Cyril and Deledio

And there we have it.

 

[Dr Awkward]

Deledio was pretty lucky, I wouldn't have had him ahead of Martin. His season got a bit overrated as the commentators have fallen in love with him this year always saying how many times we lose when he's not playing.

Having said that he was pretty borlderline so I wouldn't call it a really bad selection.

Comparing him to J.Kennedy is not that useful because I doubt they were competing for the same spot.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Deledio was pretty lucky, I wouldn't have had him ahead of Martin. His season got a bit overrated as the commentators have fallen in love with him this year always saying how many times we lose when he's not playing.

Having said that he was pretty borlderline so I wouldn't call it a really bad selection.

Comparing him to J.Kennedy is not that useful because I doubt they were competing for the same spot.

A spot on the bench?

Kennedy could easily have been picked there.

In what sense were they 'not competing for the same spot'?

 

[Dr Awkward]

A spot on the bench?

Kennedy could easily have been picked there.

In what sense were they 'not competing for the same spot'?

In the sense that I'm guessing they thought they had enough inside midfielders and maybe wanted a FWD/MID option for versatility. I'm not saying this is the right way to go about it.

 

[Underdog]

In the sense that I'm guessing they thought they had enough inside midfielders and maybe wanted a FWD/MID option for versatility. I'm not saying this is the right way to go about it.

That was their excuse but it was a bullshit one as they picked a single ruckman with not a single player in the team remotely capable of giving him a spell or providing support.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

In the sense that I'm guessing they thought they had enough inside midfielders and maybe wanted a FWD/MID option for versatility.

They were still competing for the same spot. Surely.

 

[t_bond_legend]

Apparently Brett Deledio is that good.

Apparently.

Considering he's been the 4th best performer since round 7 in regards to Champion Data points - only behind Goldy, Fyfe & Danger - yeah he's been that good this season. Apparently.

Deledio was pretty lucky, I wouldn't have had him ahead of Martin. His season got a bit overrated as the commentators have fallen in love with him this year always saying how many times we lose when he's not playing.

Massive impact player, and surely being a Richmond supporter watching weekly (I'm hoping and assuming) you can clearly see he is much more damaging than Martin barring a few games where Dusty got BOG. Is second in the league for score involvements despite missing 5 games (JJK is #1). Here are his stats compared to those at Richmond:
Disposals - 5th

Marks on lead - 2nd

Inside 50's - 2nd

Score involvements - 1st

Score assists - 2nd

Goals - 3rd
Remember that he's played more as a high HF this year than in the midfield compared to Martin and these stats reflect that. Elite HFF of the competition. Wouldn't mind squeezing Dusty in on the bench too though, think he'll take out the Richmond B&F.

A spot on the bench?

Kennedy could easily have been picked there.

In what sense were they 'not competing for the same spot'?

Clueless, but unsurprising when it comes to you. Mundy + Mitchell on the bench; JPK would be competing with them, or Priddis, the guy from your own team that you don't rate. You normally stack the bench full of inside mids do you?

They were still competing for the same spot. Surely.

Surely not. Deledio plays HF, JPK is an inside contested ball winner. Does that sound like the same spot to you? Every year we have people crying and moaning about the team being stacked with mids. Now the crying is about not enough mids getting in.

That was their excuse but it was a bullshit one as they picked a single ruckman with not a single player in the team remotely capable of giving him a spell or providing support.

Goldy rucks alone and is capable of running out a match with very minimal assistance.

 

[Underdog]

Goldy rucks alone and is capable of running out a match with very minimal assistance.

So he does get assistance?

Of course he does, Brown gives him relief. There is nobody in this team capable of that role. What happens if he does a knee in the opening minutes? There nobody at all to replace him.

They made a big deal about picking a team to play a game, no way does anyone select a team with only 1 person capable of rucking.

 

[t_bond_legend]

So he does get assistance?

Of course he does, Brown gives him relief. There is nobody in this team capable of that role. What happens if he does a knee in the opening minutes? There nobody at all to replace him.

They made a big deal about picking a team to play a game, no way does anyone select a team with only 1 person capable of rucking.

Yeah, very minimal. North roll the dice on him every week with Petrie/Brown as back ups, and he hasn't missed a game except for round 23 when he was rested. Jack/JJK can surely get to 5 or so contests between them to give him that very minimal assistance. Goldy averages 90%+ time on ground, so really isn't an issue.
You're alluding that NicNat should be named on the bench as a back up ruckman - he hasn't played as one and has been the #1 ruckman all year. No other candidates has shown that they can play KPF and 2nd ruck consistently all season, so no one gets picked. Petrie getting in a couple of years ago as that KPF/2nd ruck was an absolute howler, so I'm glad they didn't make the same mistake twice.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Clueless, but unsurprising when it comes to you. Mundy + Mitchell on the bench; JPK would be competing with them, or Priddis, the guy from your own team that you don't rate. You normally stack the bench full of inside mids do you?

Rubbish.

They picked four mids on the bench so clearly diversity wasn't that big a priority. But now you're telling me that they simply couldn't have dropped Deledio for Kennedy because they already had too many inside mids. Absolute rubbish. Kennedy could absolutely have been picked on the bench instead of Deledio, so could therefore be considered to have been competing for the same spot.

It's amazing watching Tigers supporters tie themselves in knots to defend their players. Just fighting tooth and nail to defend even the smallest victories. Don't you think it seems a little desperate? Like these AA selections are the best evidence you have that Richmond are half-decent so you simply cannot allow those selections to be questioned or undermined.

Surely not. Deledio plays HF, JPK is an inside contested ball winner.

Irrelevant.

That kind of consideration clearly didn't weigh heavily enough on their thinking to pick, for example, a second ruckman. That would have been a genuine nod to the kind of 'diversity' argument you're making but apparently this argument holds only to the extent that they had to pick a 'different kind of midfielder'.

You can't pick four midfielders on the bench and then fall back on a 'diversity' argument to justify picking one midfielder over another. That argument is forfeit as soon as there are four midfielders because clearly that consideration of diversity isn't a big part of the equation.

Does that sound like the same spot to you?

Deledio wasn't picked on a HFF. He was picked on the bench, a spot which could easily have gone to Kennedy. So yeah, same spot. A spot on the bench. Same.

Every year we have people crying and moaning about the team being stacked with mids. Now the crying is about not enough mids getting in.

It's not about whether it's 'too many' mids or 'not enough'.

It's about whether Josh Kennedy had a good enough season to justify selection. I think he did and could justifiably have been picked on the bench ahead of Deledio.

 

[t_bond_legend]

Rubbish.

They picked four mids on the bench so clearly diversity wasn't that big a priority. But now you're telling me that they simply couldn't have dropped Deledio for Kennedy because they already had too many inside mids. Absolute rubbish. Kennedy could absolutely have been picked on the bench instead of Deledio, so could therefore be considered to have been competing for the same spot.

It's amazing watching Tigers supporters tie themselves in knots to defend their players. Just fighting tooth and nail to defend even the smallest victories. Don't you think it seems a little desperate?

They picked what they deemed to be the next best two contested ball winners in Mitchell + Mundy onto the bench, and picked the next best two high HF's on the bench in Deledio + Gray. I guess they didn't see JPK as better than Mitchell/Mundy, which I disagree with. How can you compare two players who don't play the same position?
Deledio is a high HF with stints in the midfield, ditto Gray. Nice logic here... Typical, again from you. Deledio and Gray are a lot more versatile and both average over a goal a game and are heavily involved with score/goal assists. Mitchell has played HBF/Midfield this year too, so again, versatility wins on the bench. I love how you try to deflect here referring to me as a supporter, yet you can't even address any points without merit. They're not competing for the same spot, they don't play the same positions. All you're doing is convincing yourself that Kennedy should be picked ahead of Deledio... just because. Good one mate.

Irrelevant.

That kind of consideration clearly didn't weigh heavily enough on their thinking to pick, for example, a second ruckman. That would have been a genuine nod to the kind of diversity argument you're making but apparently this argument holds only to the extent that they had to pick a 'different kind of midfielder'. Sorry, that doesn't wash at all.

How is that irrelevant? God you make awful cases, you'd be a shit lawyer. They both play different positions.
I'm sorry, who would be the second ruckman? Who has played efficiently as a back up ruckman and also spends time forward kicking goals? Deledio is not a midfielder. Again, you always try to make it look like you know it all, without any basis and end up proving yourself wrong.

Deledio wasn't picked on a HFF. He was picked on the bench, a spot which could easily have gone to Kennedy. So yeah, same spot. A spot on the bench. Same.

Wow your logic is so bad I can't even comprehend. For a spot on the bench which already has two inside midfielders, why would they pick Kennedy? Deledio/Gray are playmakers forward of centre who either kick goals, or directly contribute to assisting goals.

It's not about whether it's 'too many' mids or 'not enough'.

It's about whether Josh Kennedy had a good enough season to justify selection. I think he did and could justifiably have been picked on the bench ahead of Deledio.

He definitely has had a great season and I've touched on the topic previously, stating that he deserves to be in the team, but not at the expense of players who play in a different position to him.
All these posts and you still can't comprehend how positions work? You still refer to Deledio as a 'different type of midfielder' yet he hasn't been a midfielder this year barring stints at centre bounces. You can't have 6 midfielders on the ground and expect another 4 on the bench. Deledio/Gray adds that versatility.
They are not in direct competition for Kennedy. Mundy/Mitchell both are.
2,200 posts in less than a year and you still have no clue.
Says a lot about you really, you can't comprehend or understand the basic concepts. You're either a brilliant troll or someone who is hopelessly stupid, so you're just going to be on my ignore list from now on because words to you is like shit falling from my ass.
You have nothing apart from 'JPK should be picked instead of Deledio'. Steady on.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Deledio is a high HF with stints in the midfield, ditto Gray. Nice logic here... Typical, again from you. Deledio and Gray are a lot more versatile and both average over a goal a game and are heavily involved with score/goal assists. Mitchell has played HBF/Midfield this year too, so again, versatility wins on the bench.

What's your point?

Obviously these midfielders play different styles but that doesn't mean Deledio should be picked over Kennedy, who you could argue was more deserving.

As I said, this kind of diversity argument is forfeit by the fact you've got four mids on the bench in the first place. You can't then turn around and say, 'well, they had to be different kinds of mids'.

If diversity on the bench is a priority, why not a ruckman or another defender?

As we see, this diversity argument is a non-starter. In light of that, Kennedy could easily have been picked ahead of Deledio.

I love how you try to deflect here referring to me as a supporter, yet you can't even address any points without merit.

You love how I refer to you as "a supporter"? OK. That's weird.

And I have addressed your points – if you can call them that.

You've basically repeated over and over that Deledio's selection over Kennedy is justified because they couldn't have justified picking another inside mid. But, as I've demonstrated, this kind of diversity argument doesn't hold up when you've got four mids on the bench to begin with.

They're not competing for the same spot, they don't play the same positions.

They would both be competing for a spot on the bench. How is that not the same spot?

All you're doing is convincing yourself that Kennedy should be picked ahead of Deledio... just because.

Because he had a better season.

That's a far more compelling reason than your case for Deledio.

I'm sorry, who would be the second ruckman? Who has played efficiently as a back up ruckman and also spends time forward kicking goals?

You could make cases for various players as the second ruckman.

The point is that if you're going to make the argument that there should be diversity on the bench, there's a problem with that when you've got four midfielders there.

Wow your logic is so bad I can't even comprehend. For a spot on the bench which already has two inside midfielders, why would they pick Kennedy?

Because he had a good enough season to justify selection and the diversity argument is neither here nor there.

If you want diversity, pick another ruckman or another defender.

Don't pick four midfielders and then fall back on diversity to justify one over the other. That diversity argument has already been thrown overboard by virtue of there being four midfielders.

He definitely has had a great season and I've touched on the topic previously, stating that he deserves to be in the team, but not at the expense of players who play in a different position to him.

We're not talking about Kennedy replacing Deledio on a wing or a HFF. We're talking about him replacing him on the bench, which is perfectly acceptable.

Besides, if we're judging Deledio as a forward, he shouldn't be in the side at all, given he kicked only 26 goals. The likes of Higgins, LeCras or Breust would be far more deserving if we're talking about genuine forwards. Rather, Deledio is in there as an attacking outside utility midfielder who can rotate through the engine room, a wing or a flank. Whether he was good enough in that role to be picked ahead of Kennedy is, I think, open to question.

 

[Ian Dunross]

The All Australian selection panel disagrees with your assessment.

The same panel that made Harry O'Brien, Leon Davis & Cam Mooney AAs?

Let's not pretend they're an unbiased, all knowing, infallible font of football wisdom.