All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[sr36]

I agree - it would have been out of character; that’s not my point, it is

If you promise more rape and murder of young and old women, and your founding intent is the destruction of that state, then you can expect a hard response

And if you are jihadists, and declare that your civilian deaths are welcome for your cause of international sympathy, then you will co-orchestrate a very large body count

Rightly or wrongly, most Israelis believe that Hamas will never agree to peace with Israel

Legit question, based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

(not wanting to napalm each other, thinking though how this ends with Hamas remaining as one of the significant actors)

PLO were pretty brutal in terms of both words and actions, but things were looking pretty promising until Rabin was murdered and Israel changed tack.

Hamas is just the name for the dominant resistance movement in Gaza and all resistance movements have factions. Their future resistance strategy was no more fixed than Israel's future strategy. However it's very unlikely that Israel's actions will result in anything other than future brutal resistance.

This war will eventually end with Gazan resistance being temporarily beaten into pacification, but it won't last. For Israeli security, brutal apartheid policing over both OPT will have to continue after the war and their guard will eventually drop again with more nassacres and it will be sold as crucial to stamp out whatever the name of the new group that advocates militant resistance. The Gazan war is an Israeli commitment to increase their complete domination of Palestinians far into the future. It won't increase their security in the long run, unless they can maintain that complete domination - and that doesn't usually go well without obliterating the other side.

Rather than strategy of Hamas resistance being fixed previously. This war ensures that future resistance will be brutal and that Israeli strategy has to be fixed and repressive and that will give rise to more brutal resistance. They haven't increased security; they've fed the circle of massacre.

 

[Markfs]

Israelis use a new weapon in the West Bank

 

[Markfs]

The Greens put a resolution to recognise Palestine to the lower house. THe only people who voted for it were Green.

There are different reasons for saying No. Some are probably christian zionists loving Israel's actions. Others like my local member Josh Wilson want to keep their seat. The previous member for Fremantle effectively got run out of town by the jewish lobby. Others, like the Assistant minister for Foreign Affairs sees such discussions as a point to promote themselves to the jewish lobby.....and he went for it too. They will be impressed.

Hansard Display

Hansard Display

www.aph.gov.au

 

[sr36]

The Greens put a resolution to recognise Palestine to the lower house. THe only people who voted for it were Green.

There are different reasons for saying No. Some are probably christian zionists loving Israel's actions. Others like my local member Josh Wilson want to keep their seat. The previous member for Fremantle effectively got run out of town by the jewish lobby. Others, like the Assistant minister for Foreign Affairs sees such discussions as a point to promote themselves to the jewish lobby.....and he went for it too. They will be impressed.

Hansard Display

Hansard Display

www.aph.gov.au

I'm surprised no idenpendents voted for it.

 

[Markfs]

I'm surprised no idenpendents voted for it.

i think most of them are those pink liberals or whatever they call themselves...and they're from eastern suburb sydney seats......and they know who butters their bread...

probably the greens are the only ones stupid enough to incur the wrath ...which leads to some strange outcomes. Is Australia going to bypass any political leadership in global warming etc, so that israel can get to their promised land?

 

[Markfs]

PLO were pretty brutal in terms of both words and actions, but things were looking pretty promising until Rabin was murdered and Israel changed tack.

Hamas is just the name for the dominant resistance movement in Gaza and all resistance movements have factions. Their future resistance strategy was no more fixed than Israel's future strategy. However it's very unlikely that Israel's actions will result in anything other than future brutal resistance.

This war will eventually end with Gazan resistance being temporarily beaten into pacification, but it won't last. For Israeli security, brutal apartheid policing over both OPT will have to continue after the war and their guard will eventually drop again with more nassacres and it will be sold as crucial to stamp out whatever the name of the new group that advocates militant resistance. The Gazan war is an Israeli commitment to increase their complete domination of Palestinians far into the future. It won't increase their security in the long run, unless they can maintain that complete domination - and that doesn't usually go well without obliterating the other side.

Rather than strategy of Hamas resistance being fixed previously. This war ensures that future resistance will be brutal and that Israeli strategy has to be fixed and repressive and that will give rise to more brutal resistance. They haven't increased security; they've fed the circle of massacre.

You know, for all your analysis about hamas/palestinian resistance etc, a lot of the resistance would melt away if israel simply gave them their patch of land. But it's never going to happen, not because of hamas resistance, but because israel has the weapons and they want their promised land. They want it all. So come gunning for me and call me a fool if a two state solution ever eventuates ....and i will mea culpa and lay down at your feet and worship the israeli squad who turn up in this thread to defend israel. I'm confident that the israelis will win this and get us all back in line...and we might even return to the days where everyone was called anti-semitic for even questioning the israelis.

 

[sr36]

You know, for all your analysis about hamas/palestinian resistance etc, a lot of the resistance would melt away if israel simply gave them their patch of land. But it's never going to happen, not because of hamas resistance, but because israel has the weapons and they want their promised land. They want it all. So come gunning for me and call me a fool if a two state solution ever eventuates ....and i will mea culpa and lay down at your feet and worship the israeli squad who turn up in this thread to defend israel. I'm confident that the israelis will win this and get us all back in line...and we might even return to the days where everyone was called anti-semitic for even questioning the israelis.

My view is that has historically only been the goal of a small percentage of Israelis.

I think it's a vicious circle. Israel isn't going stop the repression and give them their patch of land when they are such a security threat and Palestine aren't going to stop being a security threat if Israel continues to crush them and deny them a patch of land.

Israel are the one's in a position of power to alter the cycle, but this war has made that virtually impossible in the short or medium term.

 

[ZEV]

Israelis use a new weapon in the West Bank

Tried to save money on his rideshare...

Never use Jewber Pool.

 

[Markfs]

I've been watching this guy for a while and I haven't seen him beaten yet.

 

[ZEV]

You know, for all your analysis about hamas/palestinian resistance etc, a lot of the resistance would melt away if israel simply gave them their patch of land.

Um, it actually got way, way, way worse.

Why don't you just call it terrorism instead of pretending it's resistance?

 

[JB1975]

Um, it actually got way, way, way worse.

Why don't you just call it terrorism instead of pretending it's resistance?

Curious for your view, where is the line of demarcation between the two?

 

[ZEV]

Curious for your view, where is the line of demarcation between the two?

Well for me the line stops clearly when the aim is not to remove the "occupying power" but to destroy the State of Israel.

Hamas' aim is not based on wanting freedom for anyone.

 

[JB1975]

Well for me the line stops clearly when the aim is not to remove the "occupying power" but to destroy the State of Israel.

Hamas' aim is not based on wanting freedom for anyone.

I don't mind that.

Sometimes I've thought that the stated desire to see Israel's destruction is little more than a rhetorical device, but yes, there's also been plenty of actual intention in it.

I think that resistance slides into terrorism according to the action as well, which is a murkier line. Even if carried out by a national resistance movement which had no genocidal intention, setting hundreds of armed fighters upon 'enemy' civilians would sit comfortably in the definition of terrorism.

Not sure why I'm posting tonight. I told myself I wouldn't. Pretend I was never here.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Not sure why I'm posting tonight. I told myself I wouldn't. Pretend I was never here.

You're meant to be in our Mens' Feelings Club

Login mofo

 

[JB1975]

You're meant to be in our Mens' Feelings Club

Login mofo

There in a jiffy...as long as we don't have to do that thing where we touch our own nipples and snort like an ox.

I find that slightly strange.

 

[sr36]

Well for me the line stops clearly when the aim is not to remove the "occupying power" but to destroy the State of Israel.

Hamas' aim is not based on wanting freedom for anyone.

Under that distinction, are quotes like this about defence or are they advocating terrorism:

"All of the places which Hamas is deployed, hiding and operating in, that wicked city, we will turn them into rubble."

 

[ZEV]

I think that resistance slides into terrorism according to the action as well, which is a murkier line. Even if carried out by a national resistance movement which had no genocidal intention, setting hundreds of armed fighters upon 'enemy' civilians would

Thousands.

 

[ZEV]

Under that distinction, are quotes like this about defence or advocating terrorism:

"All of the places which Hamas is deployed, hiding and operating in, that wicked city, we will turn them into rubble."

I'm not sure why you are quoting Netanyahu on October 7th.

Given the entirety of the statement what do you think?

 

[sr36]

I'm not sure why you are quoting Netanyahu on October 7th.

Given the entirety of the statement what do you think?

Considering the quote is about destruction of "that wicked city" and that has since been carried out, I think it would meet your defintion of terrorism.

In reality whether violent military aggression is categorised as terrorism comes down simply to whether or not it is an act by a recognised government, with it not being categorised as terrorism if it is a recognised government and terrorism if it is not by a recognised government. Hamas probably fit into a blurry category.

Violent military aggression by Hamas is automatically terrorism and by Israel it cannot be. It can be war crime, but not terrorism. It's a semantic label - unless you're someone being killed and then the distinction is even less than semantics.

How horrendous, how justified or unjustified or criminal the military action is is another story.

 

[ZEV]

Considering the quote is about destruction of "that wicked city" and that has since been carried out, I think it would meet your defintion of terrorism.

You read it differently to me. A comma makes a big difference.

EDIT: Just listened to the original statement, the text you quoted is a translation from Hebrew. Its not saying destroy the whole city, just where Hamas is operating from.

 

[sr36]

Um, it actually got way, way, way worse.

Why don't you just call it terrorism instead of pretending it's resistance?

It's both.

 

[sr36]

You read it differently to me. A comma makes a big difference.

The quote is about destroying the places where Hamas is deployed. "that wicked city" is a qualifier about the places.

Not sure how it can be read differently. You might assume or hope that he misspoke, but he clearly spoke or wrote or it's been translated (not sure) about turning a place into rubble and that has also clearly occured since. I think it meets your definition of terrorism.

 

[ZEV]

The quote is about destroying the places where Hamas is deployed. "that wicked city" is a qualifier about the places.

Not sure how it can be read differently. You might assume or hope that he misspoke, but he clearly spoke or wrote or it's been translated (not sure) about turning a place into rubble and that has clearly occured.

Someone added in a comma that wasn't there when the statement was made in Hebrew.

Here is the original statement. I didn't assume or hope...

Statement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu | Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at the Kirya in Tel Aviv: "Dear citizens of Israel, This morning, on Shabbat and a holiday, Hamas... | By The Prime Minister of IsraelFacebook

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at the Kirya in Tel Aviv: "Dear citizens of Israel, This morning, on Shabbat and a holiday, Hamas...

www.facebook.com

 

[sr36]

Someone added in a comma that wasn't there when the statement was made in Hebrew.

Here is the original statement. I didn't assume or hope...

Statement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu | Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at the Kirya in Tel Aviv: "Dear citizens of Israel, This morning, on Shabbat and a holiday, Hamas... | By The Prime Minister of IsraelFacebook

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at the Kirya in Tel Aviv: "Dear citizens of Israel, This morning, on Shabbat and a holiday, Hamas...

www.facebook.com

Unless it is incorrectly translated in that video as well, the subject of that sentence is "the places where Hamas is deployed." That's what he is going to turn into rubble, he clarifies that it's not just army barracks - it's "the wicked city." And it wasn't just an intial emotive response; he's been a man of his word in this regard.

 

[Markfs]

i tend to put myself in the position where I am sitting in a tent in the middle of nowhere having been bombed out of my home and being told to go to "safe zones" which are unsafe and being buzzed by drones from morning until night and then seeing family members die or lose their limbs.....i could go on...

but I call that terrorism...non-stop terror for 9 months preceded by decades of intermittent terror....