All things Politics

[JB1975]

This isn't the same calibre as an Israeli investigation, but a forensic group in the UK are certain that Hind Rajab was killed by Israel.

It also says that the tank would have had a clear view into the car and the kids it was spraying with rapid fire.

Forensic Architecture probe concludes Israeli tank likely killed Palestinian child Hind Rajab

Investigation reveals Rajab's car was hit with 335 bullets and finds it 'not plausible' that Israeli tank couldn't see children inside car

www.middleeasteye.net

Not sure why the analysis was necessary. Hind's cousin (before she died) made it clear in one of her final phone calls that a tank was bearing down on them.

The Red Crescent audio tells the story.

Maybe they decided that there were too many Muslims involved and the whole drama needed to be verified.

 

[JB1975]

The massacres of October 7 fast became a political event as much as a human tragedy. It is the horror which unleashed many horrors.

There are efforts to 'map' the events of October 7, as a way to understand what happened and as a way to remember the individuals who became a number.

Mapping the Massacres

Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.

oct7map.com

There's a photo and short bio of most of the victims (including the kidnapped), including how they died.

I'm not sure what to say about it. It doesn't justify what Israel has done, but I'm comfortable in admitting that it helps to make sense of it, to make sense of the unchecked fury we've witnessed since.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

The massacres of October 7 fast became a political event as much as a human tragedy. It is the horror which unleashed many horrors.

There are efforts to 'map' the events of October 7, as a way to understand what happened and as a way to remember the individuals who became a number.

Mapping the Massacres

Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.

oct7map.com

There's a photo and short bio of most of the victims (including the kidnapped), including how they died.

I'm not sure what to say about it. It doesn't justify what Israel has done, but I'm comfortable in admitting that it helps to make sense of it, to make sense of the unchecked fury we've witnessed since.

And Hamas leaders post-October 7 promised there would be more of this to follow

 

[JB1975]

And Hamas leaders post-October 7 promised there would be more of this to follow

You have to admit, it'd be strange if Hamas said that October 7 was the best they could manage and that they would now be putting their energies into dance as a form of activism.

 

[Markfs]

This isn't the same calibre as an Israeli investigation, but a forensic group in the UK are certain that Hind Rajab was killed by Israel.

It also says that the tank would have had a clear view into the car and the kids it was spraying with rapid fire.

Forensic Architecture probe concludes Israeli tank likely killed Palestinian child Hind Rajab

Investigation reveals Rajab's car was hit with 335 bullets and finds it 'not plausible' that Israeli tank couldn't see children inside car

www.middleeasteye.net

Not sure why the analysis was necessary. Hind's cousin (before she died) made it clear in one of her final phone calls that a tank was bearing down on them.

The Red Crescent audio tells the story.

Maybe they decided that there were too many Muslims involved and the whole drama needed to be verified.

didnt the israelis have an investigation on this one.....one of the hundreds over the last 8 months....their investigation process is normally pretty thorough...

 

[Markfs]

The massacres of October 7 fast became a political event as much as a human tragedy. It is the horror which unleashed many horrors.

There are efforts to 'map' the events of October 7, as a way to understand what happened and as a way to remember the individuals who became a number.

Mapping the Massacres

Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.

oct7map.com

There's a photo and short bio of most of the victims (including the kidnapped), including how they died.

I'm not sure what to say about it. It doesn't justify what Israel has done, but I'm comfortable in admitting that it helps to make sense of it, to make sense of the unchecked fury we've witnessed since.

did they map the ones where the hostages got shot from israelis in helicopters? ....or the ones that died as a result of israeli tanks shooting directly into housing?

 

[Markfs]

Today's incident that will be reviewed by the IDF...

ICRC says 22 killed in strike near its Gaza office

The International Committee of the Red Cross said the "grave security incident" was the latest of several.

www.bbc.com

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

You have to admit, it'd be strange if Hamas said that October 7 was the best they could manage and that they would now be putting their energies into dance as a form of activism.

I agree - it would have been out of character; that’s not my point, it is

If you promise more rape and murder of young and old women, and your founding intent is the destruction of that state, then you can expect a hard response

And if you are jihadists, and declare that your civilian deaths are welcome for your cause of international sympathy, then you will co-orchestrate a very large body count

Rightly or wrongly, most Israelis believe that Hamas will never agree to peace with Israel

Legit question, based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

(not wanting to napalm each other, thinking though how this ends with Hamas remaining as one of the significant actors)

 

[Markfs]

Lebanese leaders this week received a “blunt” warning from US special envoy Amos Hochstein that the White House is ready to support an Israeli offensive in southern Lebanon if a “diplomatic solution” is not found to stop cross-border hostilities with Hezbollah. Hochstein was born in Israel, and reportedly used to be a dual US-Israeli citizen, but the state dept has stated that that is no longer the case.

 

[Markfs]

I was thnking with Amos Hochstein, and Antony Blinking, and Trump's son in law mapping out the deals a couple of years back, do american christians ever get involved in middle east negotiations? Is it allowed in the US constitution or has the supreme court made it illegal?

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Lebanese leaders this week received a “blunt” warning from US special envoy Amos Hochstein that the White House is ready to support an Israeli offensive in southern Lebanon if a “diplomatic solution” is not found to stop cross-border hostilities with Hezbollah. Hochstein was born in Israel, and reportedly used to be a dual US-Israeli citizen, but the state dept has stated that that is no longer the case.

View attachment 2027277

Fortunately neither Joe nor Trumpy have confounding citizenship

One of them (unless they die of old age) will make the call

 

[JB1975]

I agree - it would have been out of character; that’s not my point, it is

If you promise more rape and murder of young and old women, and your founding intent is the destruction of that state, then you can expect a hard response

And if you are jihadists, and declare that your civilian deaths are welcome for your cause of international sympathy, then you will co-orchestrate a very large body count

Rightly or wrongly, most Israelis believe that Hamas will never agree to peace with Israel

Legit question, based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

(not wanting to napalm each other, thinking though how this ends with Hamas remaining as one of the significant actors)

It's a moot point. I don't envision that Israel would ever accept a sovereign Palestine next door, whether it is led by Hamas or the PA or Taylor Swift.

That unwillingness preceded October 7.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

It's a moot point. I don't envision that Israel would ever accept a sovereign Palestine next door, whether it is led by Hamas or the PA or Taylor Swift.

That unwillingness preceded October 7.

no its not a moot point

its a legitimate question

Israel has agreed enduring peace deals with Egypt and Jordan

Bill Clinton, who was in the room, said an in-principle peace deal was agreed between Israel and Arafat

Israel may soon have very different leadership than Netanyahu


So...

based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

I was thnking with Amos Hochstein, and Antony Blinking, and Trump's son in law mapping out the deals a couple of years back, do american christians ever get involved in middle east negotiations? Is it allowed in the US constitution or has the supreme court made it illegal?

Yes

William Burns, the CIA Director, was educated as a Catholic

He seems to be Biden's most trusted US negotiator

 

[JB1975]

no its not a moot point

its a legitimate question

Israel has agreed enduring peace deals with Egypt and Jordan

Bill Clinton, who was in the room, said an in-principle peace deal was agreed between Israel and Arafat

Israel may soon have very different leadership than Netanyahu


So...

based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

That was 30 years ago and the Israeli side of those discussions was assassinated by someone who thought he was going down the wrong road.

It hasn't looked likely since.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

That was 30 years ago and the Israeli side of those discussions was assassinated by someone who thought he was going down the wrong road.

It hasn't looked likely since.

Peace can be a long game

And it has 2 sides

So...

based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

That was 30 years ago and the Israeli side of those discussions was assassinated by someone who thought he was going down the wrong road.

I believe you are referring to the assassination of PM Rabin in 1995


The Clinton negotiations at Camp David were between PM Barak and Chairman Arafat in 2000

Supposedly, Arafat subsequently thought Hamas would assassinate him if the deal went through

 

[JB1975]

Peace can be a long game

And it has 2 sides

So...

based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

Alright.

Based on the wisdom that peace is a long game...

If confronted with the tangible possibility of a workable state (i.e. sovereign), backed by the meaningful protection of the international community, then one of two things might conceivably happen:
- Hamas could agree to coexist with Israel
- The existence of a sovereign state would deescalate the politics of violence, pushing groups like Hamas to the margins

But I'm going to reiterate that Israel will never accept a sovereign Palestine. The notion that it would is absurd.
- The West Bank has been far too settled by Israel to be contemplated as anything other than part of Israel
- The levelling of Gaza doesn't suggest a willingness to contemplate a viable Palestinian state.

 

[Markfs]

Fortunately neither Joe nor Trumpy have confounding citizenship

One of them (unless they die of old age) will make the call

i'm just worried about the employment opportunities of christians in the US state dept. Evidently, they're excluded from representing the US in the middle east.

 

[JB1975]

I believe you are referring to the assassination of PM Rabin in 1995


The Clinton negotiations at Camp David were between PM Barak and Chairman Arafat in 2000

Supposedly, Arafat subsequently thought Hamas would assassinate him if the deal went through

I won't pretend to be across the negotiations of 2000.

I might check them out for curiosity's sake, but needless to say we're as far from peace as we've ever been.

 

[Markfs]

I believe you are referring to the assassination of PM Rabin in 1995


The Clinton negotiations at Camp David were between PM Barak and Chairman Arafat in 2000

Supposedly, Arafat subsequently thought Hamas would assassinate him if the deal went through

Evidently israel got to him first...

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Alright.

Based on the wisdom that peace is a long game...

If confronted with the tangible possibility of a workable state (i.e. sovereign), backed by the meaningful protection of the international community, then one of two things might conceivably happen:
- Hamas could agree to coexist with Israel
- The existence of a sovereign state would deescalate the politics of violence, pushing groups like Hamas to the margins

But I'm going to reiterate that Israel will never accept a sovereign Palestine. The notion that it would is absurd.
- The West Bank has been far too settled by Israel to be contemplated as anything other than part of Israel
- The levelling of Gaza doesn't suggest a willingness to contemplate a viable Palestinian state.

Hamas 'could' or Hamas 'would'?

Hamas has yet to, and to the best of my knowledge has not stated it would


Israel has negotiated peace treaties

Clinton said the offer was on the table for a sovereign Palestine


So your conclusion is Hamas 'could', but Israel would 'never'

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

i'm just worried about the employment opportunities of christians in the US state dept. Evidently, they're excluded from representing the US in the middle east.

No risk Mark

White Christian blokes are still well-represented in the US military-industrial complex

They have proven to be very successful colonialists and protectors of privilege

 

[JB1975]

Hamas 'could' or Hamas 'would'?

Hamas has yet to, and to the best of my knowledge has not stated it would


Israel has negotiated peace treaties

Clinton said the offer was on the table for a sovereign Palestine


So your conclusion is Hamas 'could', but Israel would 'never'

The question is about loss and gain.

At this point, what does Israel gain by negotiating for an independent Palestine? Even before October 7, not much more than one-third of Israelis believed that Israel could coexist with an independent Palestine.

Any Israeli leader who makes a serious attempt at a two-state solution wouldn't be leader for very long. It would be seen as a situation in which Israel would lose so much and gain almost nothing at all.

As for the Palestinians, it is now three decades since the last serious attempt at peaceful coexistence. If faced with a meaningful prospect of real independence, it's possible that the opportunity would be embraced...an embrace of a two-state solution.

It has become painfully clear that they have everything to gain from such an outcome, and everything to lose if such a chance doesn't eventuate.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

The question is about loss and gain.

At this point, what does Israel gain by negotiating for an independent Palestine? Even before October 7, not much more than one-third of Israelis believed that Israel could coexist with an independent Palestine.

Any Israeli leader who makes a serious attempt at a two-state solution wouldn't be leader for very long. It would be seen as a situation in which Israel would lose so much and gain almost nothing at all.

As for the Palestinians, it is now three decades since the last serious attempt at peaceful coexistence. If faced with a meaningful prospect of real independence, it's possible that the opportunity would be embraced...an embrace of a two-state solution.

It has become painfully clear that they have everything to gain from such an outcome, and everything to lose if such a chance doesn't eventuate.

It was 23 years

Israel put forward a very strong settlement offer - one that Palestinians would have likely thrived under with US, European, and Japanese development aid

The Palestinian rebuild could have had the state look like Dubai or Cyprus at a minimum


It is a very specific question, that I don't think you have answered

Based upon Hamas’ track record. including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee Hamas accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?