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WalterBlaknWhte said:
It was 23 years

Israel put forward a very strong settlement offer - one that Palestinians would have likely thrived under with US, European, and Japanese development aid

The Palestinian rebuild could have had the state look like Dubai or Cyprus at a minimum


It is a very specific question, that I don't think you have answered

Based upon Hamas’ track record. including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee Hamas accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?
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I've answered the question as best as can be answered by someone who can't see hypothetical futures.

I can only respond according to probability.

Right now, many Palestinians want a state of their own...alongside Israel. Right now, the vast majority of Israelis cannot accept the possibility of an independent Palestine.

But we are so far from the prospect of a two-state solution, it'd be more practical to discuss what a Pauline Hanson-led Australia will look like.
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
No risk Mark

White Christian blokes are still well-represented in the US military-industrial complex

They have proven to be very successful colonialists and protectors of privilege
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i just dont think they have that connection to greater israel....it limits their promotional opportunities
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
It was 23 years

Israel put forward a very strong settlement offer - one that Palestinians would have likely thrived under with US, European, and Japanese development aid

The Palestinian rebuild could have had the state look like Dubai or Cyprus at a minimum


It is a very specific question, that I don't think you have answered

Based upon Hamas’ track record. including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee Hamas accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?
Click to expand...

geez walter, you shouldnt mislead poor jb like that...
 

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Markfs said:
geez walter, you shouldnt mislead poor jb like that...
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Not so sure about misled. Feeling a bit badgered, though.

Appreciate the sympathy.
 
JB1975 said:
I've answered the question as best as can be answered by someone who can't see hypothetical futures.

I can only respond according to probability.

Right now, many Palestinians want a state of their own...alongside Israel. Right now, the vast majority of Israelis cannot accept the possibility of an independent Palestine.

But we are so far from the prospect of a two-state solution, it'd be more practical to discuss what a Pauline Hanson-led Australia will look like.
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Your words were Hamas could but Israel would never deal

Without having much knowledge of the 2000 Camp David dialogue and confusing it with the 1995 assassination of Rabin

As one of the most educated posters on BF, let alone in this thread, doesn't that sum up the lack of informed commentary on this topic


Israelis don't believe Hamas will ever deal on peace because Hamas have said they won't

Israeli's know they did peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt (corrected)

They signed an accord with the UAE and were close to signing with the Saudis

And they tried very hard in 2000 with Arafat


It is no excuse to drop dumb 2000 pound bombs on Gaza, and the injuries caused to the innocent Gazans are horrific

And Netanyahu should be thrown out now

But to understand Israel we need a better understanding of what offers it has previously advanced

And a better understanding of what Hamas stands for
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
Your words were Hamas could but Israel would never deal

Without having much knowledge of the 2000 Camp David dialogue and confusing it with the 1995 assassination of Rabin

As one of the most educated posters on BF, let alone in this thread, doesn't that sum up the lack of informed commentary on this topic


Israelis don't believe Hamas will ever deal on peace because Hamas have said they won't

Israeli's know they did peace treaties with Jordan and Palestine

They signed an accord with the UAE and were close to signing with the Saudis

And they tried very hard in 2000 with Arafat


It is no excuse to drop dumb 2000 pond bombs on Gaza, and the injuries caused to the innocent Gazans are horrific

And Netanyahu should be thrown out now

But to understand Israel we need a better understanding of what offers it has previously advanced

And a better understanding of what Hamas stands for
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I appreciate the regard for my education, that it earns me a place among BF's best.

I've contemplated a possibility that Hamas could one day accept a two-state solution because the majority of Palestinians want it. I've also contemplated a possibility that Hamas won't be relevant in the future.

I can't see Israel accepting a two-state solution because (a) the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't accept the possibility and (b) there's nothing for Israel to gain by it.

If you want to suggest that Israel is ready to negotiate for an independent Palestine, then I'd be happy to hear an argument for that.

It'd be a more worthwhile exercise than trying to suggest I'm somehow not across the ideology of Hamas.

Whatever importance you want to place in the year 2000 (excuse my ignorance on that one), the realty remains that we are further from the prospect of a two-state solution than we've ever been.
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
Given your numerous posts on this thread, of your own volition, surely it is legitimate to debate
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My post to Mark was jocular. Sorry that it wasn't more apparent.

I'm not sure what the debate is about, but you don't need me to invite your opinion.
 
JB1975 said:
I appreciate the regard for my education, that it earns me a place among BF's best.

I've contemplated a possibility that Hamas could one day accept a two-state solution because the majority of Palestinians want it. I've also contemplated a possibility that Hamas won't be relevant in the future.

I can't see Israel accepting a two-state solution because (a) the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't accept the possibility and (b) there's nothing for Israel to gain by it.

If you want to suggest that Israel is ready to negotiate for an independent Palestine, then I'd be happy to hear an argument for that.

It'd be a more worthwhile exercise than trying to suggest I'm somehow not across the ideology of Hamas.

Whatever importance you want to place in the year 2000 (excuse my ignorance on that one), the realty remains that we are further from the prospect of a two-state solution than we've ever been.
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The Egyptian-Israeli peace deal was negotiated on the basis of Israel wanting security and Egypt wanting sovereignty

Israel will deal again because Israelis have better things to do - music festivals and commerce - rather than fight the never-ending war

An international force in the West Bank and Gaza and international development aid could lead to a vibrant Palestinian state

It won't happen under Netanyahu and the Israeli Jewish Ultra-Right

It won't happen under Hamas

But there are other Palestinians and other Israelis who could make it happen
 

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WalterBlaknWhte said:
Was connecting to your point of feeling badgered

The debate is one that you have dedicated tens of hours to in the past 6 months
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Yep, I was being facetious about demands that I predict the future.

Still not sure what the debate is, not exactly, but it's true that I've devoted a lot of time to talking about the current conflict.

I am duly ashamed.
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
The Egyptian-Israeli peace deal was negotiated on the basis of Israel wanting security and Egypt wanting sovereignty

Israel will deal again because Israelis have better things to do - music festivals and commerce - rather than fight the never-ending war

An international force in the West Bank and Gaza and international development aid could lead to a vibrant Palestinian state

It won't happen under Netanyahu and the Israeli Jewish Ultra-Right

It won't happen under Hamas

But there are other Palestinians and other Israelis who could make it happen
Click to expand...

you need to update yourself on israeli public opinion...

1719060609927.png
 
JB1975 said:
Yep, I was being facetious about demands that I predict the future.

Still not sure what the debate is, not exactly, but it's true that I've devoted a lot of time to talking about the current conflict.

I am duly ashamed.
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i think your main fault is that you haven't considered the israeli side in gaza....it's difficult to have to murder every day...
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
The Egyptian-Israeli peace deal was negotiated on the basis of Israel wanting security and Egypt wanting sovereignty

Israel will deal again because Israelis have better things to do - music festivals and commerce - rather than fight the never-ending war

An international force in the West Bank and Gaza and international development aid could lead to a vibrant Palestinian state

It won't happen under Netanyahu and the Israeli Jewish Ultra-Right

It won't happen under Hamas

But there are other Palestinians and other Israelis who could make it happen
Click to expand...

I'll admit, the proposition that Israel would be willing to negotiate a Palestinian state because they want to focus on money and dance isn't very persuasive.

It's spurious to say it won't happen under Hamas; it just won't happen under any Palestinian authority...including the Palestinian Authority.

I've been pro-Israel in the past. I know that there have been roads untaken, which should have been taken, by both sides.

But here we are, in a situation where Israel (and the majority of its citizens, whether they support Netanyahu or not) feels justified in massacring the population of Gaza and turning the place into rubble.
 
JB1975 said:
Yep, I was being facetious about demands that I predict the future.

Still not sure what the debate is, not exactly, but it's true that I've devoted a lot of time to talking about the current conflict.

I am duly ashamed.
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And your ideas are worthy to solicit because you read and think

And you come in good faith
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
And your ideas are worthy to solicit because you read and think

And you come in good faith
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Friday night, 11pm. About time you started started talking sexy.
 
JB1975 said:
I'll admit, the proposition that Israel would be willing to negotiate a Palestinian state because they want to focus on money and dance isn't very persuasive.
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Israeli youth, which includes many Arabs, pre-Oct 7, registered as the happiest youth on the planet

Why?

Hope for economic future, free voting, freedom to express sexuality, freedom of speech, freedom to dance and listen to music etc

A good life

Yes, these things matter

Why were the young women in Iran protesting - because they have none of the above
 
A little different for Palestinians. The survey was conducted before October 7 in the West Bank and Gaza, and even then the Palestinians were only ranked 103rd out of 143 countries. Maybe living in a jail isnt that great....
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
Israeli youth, which includes many Arabs, pre-Oct 7, registered as the happiest youth on the planet

Why?

Hope for economic future, free voting, freedom to express sexuality, freedom of speech, freedom to dance and listen to music etc

A good life

Yes, these things matter

Why were the young women in Iran protesting - because they have none of the above
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I've been given freedoms, but my ideology requires that I remain disgruntled.

Israeli youth should be happy to have what they do, in the same way that many Palestinians are understandably miserable about their lot.

And Iran is a tragedy. It was a sad story before the Ayatollah arrived from Paris, and it has been a sad story ever since.

Maybe they would have done better if the US didn't overthrow their attempt at democracy and install a shah in the 1950s, but it'd be easier to speculate about the future.
 
It makes me think that the youth which is the happiest in the world, are the same people who stand at checkpoints in the West Bank and humiliate palestinians and often shoot them...kids included. I find that very strange. There's a "silence of the lambs" feel to it...
 
WalterBlaknWhte said:
I agree - it would have been out of character; that’s not my point, it is

If you promise more rape and murder of young and old women, and your founding intent is the destruction of that state, then you can expect a hard response

And if you are jihadists, and declare that your civilian deaths are welcome for your cause of international sympathy, then you will co-orchestrate a very large body count

Rightly or wrongly, most Israelis believe that Hamas will never agree to peace with Israel

Legit question, based upon Hamas’ track record including Oct 7, and its stated principles, do you foresee it accepting the state of Israel and ceasing military attacks?

(not wanting to napalm each other, thinking though how this ends with Hamas remaining as one of the significant actors)
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PLO were pretty brutal in terms of both words and actions, but things were looking pretty promising until Rabin was murdered and Israel changed tack.

Hamas is just the name for the dominant resistance movement in Gaza and all resistance movements have factions. Their future resistance strategy was no more fixed than Israel's future strategy. However it's very unlikely that Israel's actions will result in anything other than future brutal resistance.

This war will eventually end with Gazan resistance being temporarily beaten into pacification, but it won't last. For Israeli security, brutal apartheid policing over both OPT will have to continue after the war and their guard will eventually drop again with more nassacres and it will be sold as crucial to stamp out whatever the name of the new group that advocates militant resistance. The Gazan war is an Israeli commitment to increase their complete domination of Palestinians far into the future. It won't increase their security in the long run, unless they can maintain that complete domination - and that doesn't usually go well without obliterating the other side.

Rather than strategy of Hamas resistance being fixed previously. This war ensures that future resistance will be brutal and that Israeli strategy has to be fixed and repressive and that will give rise to more brutal resistance. They haven't increased security; they've fed the circle of massacre.
 
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