All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[Markfs]

Is there work to put in? Don't you just look at stuff through the small end?

alignment, movement, knowing what you're looking at etc etc...

 

[sr36]

alignment, movement, knowing what you're looking at etc etc...

Just look into it Mark. You'll know what you're looking at better if you're looking at it.

Not sure what you do after you look at it though - perhaps that's what you need to learn.

 

[Markfs]

Still peddling the bogus sex crime accusataions made against Assange by two Swedish operatives and the CIA, allied with msm. You've just gone another step further than them in depravity by adding pedophilia to the fraudulent accusations of rape. Considering how your moral stature as a smug and ignorant keyboard warrior who has no accountability for the sh** he posts online, compares with a man like Julian Assange, it makes your comment more nauseating even than it is stupid.

maybe its my grammar or maybe it's your interpretation, but I thought he was targetted in sweden because he didnt mind taking advantage of his fame. I remember there was a story of trump interacting with urine somewhere in moscow some years back.

I compare how the US accepts the israeli protection of paedophiles with the way it targets journalists....

 

[Markfs]

Just look into it Mark. You'll know what you're looking at better if you're looking at it.

Not sure what you do after you look at it though - perhaps that's what you need to learn.

at this point in time, I'm not motivated but I will make sure that I will ask for directions from swipey when the time comes....

 

[IlovethePies]

maybe its my grammar or maybe it's your interpretation, but I thought he was targetted in sweden because he didnt mind taking advantage of his fame. I remember there was a story of trump interacting with urine somewhere in moscow some years back.

I compare how the US accepts the israeli protection of paedophiles with the way it targets journalists....

Well, you should
a) read up about what has happened to Assange (because he was targeted in Sweden on the basis of trumped up "rape" allegations, in an attempt by the Swedish government to get him to return to Sweden to "answer" the socalled "charges". Had Assange agreed to do so, the Swedish government would have immediately extradited him to the US
b) make your posts clearer in meaning.

I am glad that my interpretation of your post was not what you meant, because what it appeared to mean to me (given the history of bogus sexual allegations against Assange) was another disgusting slander against this courageous man.

 

[Markfs]

I'm interested in your takes on Assange's politics. A lot of his ideas reek of fairly standard RW libertarianism (forgive the shallow labels, they're easier). I'd have imagined you would be fairly opposed to him for the most part.

This is not saying he ought to be locked up, by the way.

The key sentence is your last, isnt it? You may have guessed over the mouths that I dont surround myself with like-minded people. I think he did valuable things at wikileaks totally indpendent of his politics. A fascists or a commo can release information and it is still the same information.

i watched a liberatarian on youtube earlier speak about the huge buildings associated with their many agencies and the waste of money involved and the way corporates suck cash off the state. He made some good points. i dont agree with others.

 

[Markfs]

Well, you should
a) read up about what has happened to Assange (because he was targeted in Sweden on the basis of trumped up "rape" allegations, in an attempt by the Swedish government to get him to return to Sweden to "answer" the socalled "charges". Had Assange agreed to do so, the Swedish government would have immediately extradited him to the US
b) make your posts clearer in meaning.

I am glad that my interpretation of your post was not what you meant, because what it appeared to mean to me (given the history of bogus sexual allegations against Assange) was another disgusting slander against this courageous man.

well i'm glad that you're happy.

a) i wont be reading that
b) i will post as i always do

And finally, may I offer my thanks to all for the various questions, points of order and advice in the recent posts. I will be going out to dinner tonight but I will be returning later if anyone wants to offer me further advice.

 

[IlovethePies]

well i'm glad that you're happy.

a) i wont be reading that
b) i will post as i always do

And finally, may I offer my thanks to all for the various questions, points of order and advice in the recent posts. I will be going out to dinner tonight but I will be returning later if anyone wants to offer me further advice.

Good to see that you have an open mind.

 

[Markfs]

I should remind everyone that about 20 further palestinians were killed by the israelis today. Evidently they were involved in food truck movements. The israelis have a strong need to see palestinians starve. They are very committed to this goal. You have to respect how they state a goal and then pursue it.

 

[IlovethePies]

I should remind everyone that about 20 further palestinians were killed by the israelis today. Evidently they were involved in food truck movements. The israelis have a strong need to see palestinians starve. They are very committed to this goal. You have to respect how they state a goal and then pursue it.

Sarcasm has no place here. Just call it out for what it is. Genocide.

 

[Markfs]

Sarcasm has no place here. Just call it out for what it is. Genocide.

Good to see that you have an open mind.

 

[gouki88]

I am not concerned much about his personal politics. What I know is that he has fought for the truth, and sacrificed years of his life as a result. He is a journalist who is profoundly committed to the right of the public to know the truth about the crimes and the diplomatic intrigues of US imperialism and its allies. His only crime has ever been that he had the "audacity"" to expose the war crimes of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and its deals/agreements with dictatorships.

Assange has always followed a supreme personal conviction: that in a democracy, every person has the right to know the truth about government criminality.

For that alone, he stands heads and shoulders above all the right wing, corrupt, bought out " journalists" who today function not as journalists but as propaganda agents for imperialist governments.

Assange has immense personal courage, because he knew the risks to his personal safety that he was taking by publishing material such as Collateral Murder, which had the power to radicalise opinion.

Indeed, the exposure of US government crimes by Wikileaks played a significant role in the radicalisation of the masses that took place in Egypt and Tunisia (and in other Arab countries) in 2010 during the Arab spring.

Men like Assange need to be celebrated for their immense bravery, resilience, and the example they set to never accept government criminality, but instead fight to expose it and warn others about it.

I feel like you're putting him on quite the pedestal. On exposed form, he seems to be at best be a pretty sleazy person on a personal level.

It feels as if you're quite quick to brush aside his SA allegations.

 

[IlovethePies]

I feel like you're putting him on quite the pedestal. On exposed form, he seems to be at best be a pretty sleazy person on a personal level.

It feels as if you're quite quick to brush aside his SA allegations.

I'm not quick to brush aside the allegations. I have read voluminously about it. Anyone who makes a point of doing so, will understand conclusively that the allegations of rape were trumped up by a female operative of the Swedish Social Democratic party, which itself was acting in collusion with the US government.
The msm launched an entire campaign (NY Times, The Guardian, ABC, The Age etc) attempting to portray him precisely as you described: a "sleazy person on a personal level", in an effort which was, for several years unfortunately reasonably successful.

The purpose of this campaign was to discredit him as a person, in order to distract people from the significance of the rampant criminality in the US government that he exposed,

Also, and just as importantly, it was meant to act as an intimidation to any other journalist who might be thinking of likewise exposing the war crimes and diplomatic crimes of the US goverment.

 

[sr36]

I am not concerned much about his personal politics. What I know is that he has fought for the truth, and sacrificed years of his life as a result. He is a journalist who is profoundly committed to the right of the public to know the truth about the crimes and the diplomatic intrigues of US imperialism and its allies. His only crime has ever been that he had the "audacity"" to expose the war crimes of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and its deals/agreements with dictatorships.

Assange has always followed a supreme personal conviction: that in a democracy, every person has the right to know the truth about government criminality.

For that alone, he stands heads and shoulders above all the right wing, corrupt, bought out " journalists" who today function not as journalists but as propaganda agents for imperialist governments.

Assange has immense personal courage, because he knew the risks to his personal safety that he was taking by publishing material such as Collateral Murder, which had the power to radicalise opinion.

Indeed, the exposure of US government crimes by Wikileaks played a significant role in the radicalisation of the masses that took place in Egypt and Tunisia (and in other Arab countries) in 2010 during the Arab spring.

Men like Assange need to be celebrated for their immense bravery, resilience, and the example they set to never accept government criminality, but instead fight to expose it and warn others about it.

The Assange case has been really important for journalists - with massive ramifications, but Assange wasn't a journalist himself; he was a publisher and a lazy one.

 

[Black_White]

I am not concerned much about his personal politics. What I know is that he has fought for the truth, and sacrificed years of his life as a result. He is a journalist who is profoundly committed to the right of the public to know the truth about the crimes and the diplomatic intrigues of US imperialism and its allies. His only crime has ever been that he had the "audacity"" to expose the war crimes of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and its deals/agreements with dictatorships.

Assange has always followed a supreme personal conviction: that in a democracy, every person has the right to know the truth about government criminality.

For that alone, he stands heads and shoulders above all the right wing, corrupt, bought out " journalists" who today function not as journalists but as propaganda agents for imperialist governments.

Assange has immense personal courage, because he knew the risks to his personal safety that he was taking by publishing material such as Collateral Murder, which had the power to radicalise opinion.

Indeed, the exposure of US government crimes by Wikileaks played a significant role in the radicalisation of the masses that took place in Egypt and Tunisia (and in other Arab countries) in 2010 during the Arab spring.

Men like Assange need to be celebrated for their immense bravery, resilience, and the example they set to never accept government criminality, but instead fight to expose it and warn others about it.

Unfortunately that point of view ignores the reality of life.
Governments do have to have secrets. Because other governments present threats to our governments ability to protect you and me.
Where’s the line? I don’t know. But there is a line and wholesale dumps of information without understanding the possible repercussions is criminal.
Do you really think that Assange would not do a wholesale dump of security information from inside the Ukraine government if he had a chance? Even if it gave Russia a decisive advantage?
There really is no justification for us to know everything our governments do.

 

[IlovethePies]

The Assange case has been really important for journalists - with massive ramifications, but Assange wasn't a journalist himself;

That's not what the Walkley Foundation thinks:

Statement: Julian Assange Extradition - The Walkley Foundation

Statement: Julian Assange Extradition

www.walkleys.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Unfortunately that point of view ignores the reality of life.
Governments do have to have secrets. Because other governments present threats to our governments ability to protect you and me.
Where’s the line? I don’t know. But there is a line and wholesale dumps of information without understanding the possible repercussions is criminal.
Do you really think that Assange would not do a wholesale dump of security information from inside the Ukraine government if he had a chance? Even if it gave Russia a decisive advantage?
There really is no justification for us to know everything our governments do.

Sorry BW, but you and I are light years apart.
a) Governments have no right to keep secrets because their aim is not to "protect you and me". Rather, their aim is protect the profit interests of their corporate and financial backers. And the profit interests of corporations, hedge funds, banks etc are inimical to those of "you and me".
b) Throughout Asange's numerous court hearings, the prosecution has never been able to produce a shred of evidence that anything Assange published caused harm to US military personnel. Assange carefully curated all the information he released to ensure that this would be the case.
c) There is every justification for us to know what "our" governments do. It does not sound like you have a very strong attachment to democracy if you think otherwise.

 

[sideswipe]

Sorry BW, but you and I are light years apart.
a) Governments have no right to keep secrets because their aim is not to "protect you and me". Rather, their aim is protect the profit interests of their corporate and financial backers. And the profit interests of corporations, hedge funds, banks etc are inimical to those of "you and me".
b) Throughout Asange's numerous court hearings, the prosecution has never been able to produce a shred of evidence that anything Assange published caused harm to US military personnel. Assange carefully curated all the information he released to ensure that this would be the case.
c) There is every justification for us to know what "our" governments do. It does not sound like you have a very strong attachment to democracy if you think otherwise.

Your attachment to reality is looser.


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[sr36]

That's not what the Walkley Foundation thinks:

Statement: Julian Assange Extradition - The Walkley Foundation

Statement: Julian Assange Extradition

www.walkleys.com

The award was for contribution to journalism. And by encouraging the release of and publishing a heap of primary sources wikileaks was an absolute boon for journalists and journalism. The journalists who reported on the wikileaks sources haven't been tried. The publisher of the sources has been. It's a really interesting case and a tragic one for the toll it's taken on Assange. We don't need to revere him though.

 

[IlovethePies]

Your attachment to reality is looser.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Coming from you I feel very assured now that I have nailed reality.

 

[IlovethePies]

The award was for contribution to journalism. And by encouraging the release of and publishing a heap of primary sources wikileaks was an absolute boon for journalists and journalism. The journalists who reported on the wikileaks sources haven't been tried. The publisher of the sources has been. It's a really interesting case and a tragic one for the toll it's taken on Assange. We don't need to revere him though.

Yes no need to revere him.
But there is a need to acknowledge what he fought for and what he has now achieved. The US government has been forced to back down from its totally lawless attempt to railroad Assange into a US prison for the rest of his life.

They know that buckets of evidence could be produced by Assange's defence to prove that the US government spied on him illegally while he was in the Ecuadorian embassy, and also plotted to kidnap/assassinate him while he was there, They buckled because they feared the international exposure of their own criminality that any trial of Julian Assange would bring...however stacked the court was in their favour. Hence, they have backed down.

Assange has shown the courage and reslilience to stay alive, despite what Niels Meltzer described as "torture" in Belmarsh prison.


He has defied the attempt of the US government and its allies to eliminate him (which is what they were hoping for. They hoped that he might commit suicide, or die in Belmarsh from ill health. Not to be, Assange was too resilient).

The release of Julian Assange is a great victory to be celebrated by all those who value democratic rights and the right of journalists to expose the truth about government criminality. It only occurred because the US government (and the UK government, and the Australian government) have understood that there is global support for Assange, and a kangaroo court railroading him to prison could ignite a massive social rebellion that they could not control.

 

[sr36]

Yes no need to revere him.
But there is a need to acknowledge what he fought for and what he has now achieved. The US government has been forced to back down from its totally lawless attempt to railroad Assange into a US prison for the rest of his life.

They know that buckets of evidence could be produced by Assange's defence to prove that the US government spied on him illegally while he was in the Ecuadorian embassy, and also plotted to kidnap/assassinate him while he was there, They buckled because they feared the international exposure of their own criminality that any trial of Julian Assange would bring...however stacked the court was in their favour. Hence, they have backed down.

Assange has shown the courage and reslilience to stay alive, despite what Niels Meltzer described as "torture" in Belmarsh prison.


He has defied the attempt of the US government and its allies to eliminate him (which is what they were hoping for. They hoped that he might commit suicide, or die in Belmarsh from ill health. Not to be, Assange was too resilient).

The release of Julian Assange is a great victory to be celebrated by all those who value democratic rights and the right of journalists to expose the truth about government criminality. It only occurred because the US government (and the UK government, and the Australian government) have understood that there is global support for Assange, and a kangaroo court railroading him to prison could ignite a massive social rebellion that they could not control.

I just don't think Assange fought for anything other than Assange. I couldn't care less if I never heard his name againd. The heroes are those who fought for Assange and journalistic freedoms.

 

[sideswipe]

Yes no need to revere him.
But there is a need to acknowledge what he fought for and what he has now achieved. The US government has been forced to back down from its totally lawless attempt to railroad Assange into a US prison for the rest of his life.

They know that buckets of evidence could be produced by Assange's defence to prove that the US government spied on him illegally while he was in the Ecuadorian embassy, and also plotted to kidnap/assassinate him while he was there, They buckled because they feared the international exposure of their own criminality that any trial of Julian Assange would bring...however stacked the court was in their favour. Hence, they have backed down.

Assange has shown the courage and reslilience to stay alive, despite what Niels Meltzer described as "torture" in Belmarsh prison.


He has defied the attempt of the US government and its allies to eliminate him (which is what they were hoping for. They hoped that he might commit suicide, or die in Belmarsh from ill health. Not to be, Assange was too resilient).

The release of Julian Assange is a great victory to be celebrated by all those who value democratic rights and the right of journalists to expose the truth about government criminality. It only occurred because the US government (and the UK government, and the Australian government) have understood that there is global support for Assange, and a kangaroo court railroading him to prison could ignite a massive social rebellion that they could not control.

You are getting carried away. Quite a deal of what Assange and his pals released is stuff that should never have seen the light of day.


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[IlovethePies]

You are getting carried away. Quite a deal of what Assange and his pals released is stuff that should never have seen the light of day.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

That is because you think governments have the right to keep secrets...and that my friend is antithetical to democracy.

 

[IlovethePies]

I just don't think Assange fought for anything other than Assange. I couldn't care less if I never heard his name againd. The heroes are those who fought for Assange and journalistic freedoms.

That is your opinion...then there is reality.
The ones you claim "fought for his freedom" were often the ones who initially spread the vile rape allegations(ie The guardian, the abc et al)
They changed their tune somewhat when they realised that their smear campaign was wearing thin.