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Markfs said:
I've got a question that just came to mind...

If you were head of AIPAC and you had both trump and biden in your back pocket, which one would you back? Biden's been in the firm for all his political life and has the support of the clintons. Trump looks like he'll give everything that you want, but he has no emotional tie to the israeli state. In other words, he's untrustworthy. Biden, of course, is a self-proclaimed zionist.

So which one do you pick?
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No question but that the Israeli government would want a victory for the Democrats, because Trump and his fascist cronies have shown themselves to be a little less clear on which war they want to wage right now. On the other hand, the Democrats (whether it's Biden or someone who replaces him after the debating debacle) are fully trusted war mongers with a proven track record.
 

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IlovethePies said:
No question but that the Israeli government would want a victory for the Democrats, because Trump and his fascist cronies have shown themselves to be a little less clear on which war they want to wage right now. On the other hand, the Democrats (whether it's Biden or someone who replaces him after the debating debacle) are fully trusted war mongers with a proven track record.
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yes a proven record....but trump has been paid a large sum of money to assist israel to acquire the whole west bank and possibly further east in jordan. It's a tempting opportunity....maybe acquire the whole promised land within the decade. But I must admit that trump is unstable and he might change his mind if putin asks him not to assist israel confronting iran...
 
What was that story about austwitch that came out a couple of weeks ago? I've forgotten but I thought Rupert was doing great work on his free site. Well it seems he's got another 80 year old headline about the famous concentration camp. I wonder if this is a monthly thing?...

Not that Rupert is doing it. He's just paying his minions. I notice that it's same "journalist" with this "new" story. Jasmine got her bachelor of journalism a few years back and says that she likes real life and human interest. Good luck with the career Jasmine....

oh by the way, the actual story is 3 months old...
 
sr36 said:
I wouldn't pay Donny up front and assume you'll get what you paid for.
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well I suppose its a question of whether it is upfront or a downpayment. He did some previous work for Israel with his son-in-law through the Abraham accords (love the name). You probably know about them....encouraging Middle East Arab countries to sign agreements with Israel to broaden their economies and give them access to the US, and effectively dismissing the Palestinian question so that no one would argue about Israel taking over the West Bank...

In fact, it was the Saudi intention to sign one of these agreements that sparked the Hamas action in the first place....as the Saudis are sunnis like the Palestinians. The signing probably would have ended hope of any possibility for a Palestinian homeland.....

So I expect that to continue with Trump. The Palestinian side has no money. I think the only way to get a two state policy out of Trump is to do a world wide gofundme campaign to get $100m directly to Trump. He's definitely willing to do anything for money. A true capitalist. I think that's why we admire him. A man who has his price. I'm not sure if he would sell his daughter to the saudis. Something seems to have happened between the two of them. Maybe he got frisky one night...
 
I understand that people wage war in any way that they can, and will use any advantage that they have over their adversary, but as someone who was raised on a string of Hollywood war movies made by Warner Bros, MGM, 20th Century Fox, RKO pictures, Universal, Columbia and similar producers, and the valor that those films portrayed, I can say that dropping bombs from the sky on innocent civilians seems to me to be a pretty gutless way to win a war.
 

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Markfs said:
I understand that people wage war in any way that they can, and will use any advantage that they have over their adversary, but as someone who was raised on a string of Hollywood war movies made by Warner Bros, MGM, 20th Century Fox, RKO pictures, Universal, Columbia and similar producers, and the valor that those films portrayed, I can say that dropping bombs from the sky on innocent civilians seems to me to be a pretty gutless way to win a war.
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Worked well for the British in WW2
 
There are plenty of distinctions to be drawn between the bombing campaigns of WWII and what is being done in Gaza.

Even more than the First World War, the Second World War involved the full mobilisation of most of the industrialised world. Faced with a rampant Germany and Japan, the conflict was existential in every sense of the word.

Both Germany and Japan resisted surrender for as long as possible. The forces at their disposable were diminishing but capable of large-scale violence, which brought the need to keep bombing them into complete submission.

It really was a 'total' war.

Gaza isn't anything like that.

For one thing, it's hardly a war. It's a broad-based campaign of violence (including starvation) being waged against a group of people, not a state.

Hamas resides within Gaza, but it is no army. It is a relatively 'primitive' paramilitary group: low tech, poorly armed, basic training, no air power etc.

In other words, it's a one-sided slaughter against people who are either innocent or have no real power of resistance. Barbarism.
 
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JB1975 said:
There are plenty of distinctions to be drawn between the bombing campaigns of WWII and what is being done in Gaza.

Even more than the First World War, the Second World War involved the full mobilisation of most of the industrialised world. Faced with a rampant Germany and Japan, the conflict was existential in every sense of the word.

Both Germany and Japan resisted surrender for as long as possible. The forces at their disposable were diminishing but capable of large-scale violence, which brought the need to keep bombing them into complete submission.

It really was a 'total' war.

Gaza isn't anything like that.

For one thing, it's hardly a war. It's a broad-based campaign of violence (including starvation) being waged against a group of people, not a state.

Hamas resides within Gaza, but it is no army. It is relatively 'primitive' paramilitary group: low tech, poorly armed, basic training, no air power etc.

In other words, it's a one-sided slaughter against people who are either innocent or have no real power of resistance. Barbarism.
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Absolutely. Hamas aren't currently a threat. This isnt comparable to those other wars and actions designed to end or turn a war. This is biblical stuff, trying to beat a group into submission to scare them off from future uprisings.
 
sr36 said:
Absolutely. Hamas aren't currently a threat. This isnt comparable to those other wars and actions designed to end or turn a war. This is biblical stuff, trying to beat a group into submission to scare them off from future uprisings.
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i disagree and time will tell if i'm wrong. This isnt about scaring them into submission, or thats only part of the goal. They want the palestinians out of the area, one way or another.

And people laugh at this idea of the promised land, and I understand israeli supporters would do that, but israeli govt ministers are currently extending israeli control of the west bank, and jewish american billionaires are paying Trump to assist in the takeover of the West Bank.

THis is the end goal....you might be an israeli apologist or you're supporting your jewish mates, and of course, you'll deny it, but to me it's as plain as day. It has been obvious for the last 9 months.
 
sr36 said:
Absolutely. Hamas aren't currently a threat. This isnt comparable to those other wars and actions designed to end or turn a war. This is biblical stuff, trying to beat a group into submission to scare them off from future uprisings.
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It very much feels colonial, with an occupying force trying to subjugate or (more likely) expel a population from the territory.
 
Markfs said:
i disagree and time will tell if i'm wrong. This isnt about scaring them into submission, or thats only part of the goal. They want the palestinians out of the area, one way or another.

And people laugh at this idea of the promised land, and I understand israeli supporters would do that, but israeli govt ministers are currently extending israeli control of the west bank, and jewish american billionaires are paying Trump to assist in the takeover of the West Bank.

THis is the end goal....you might be an israeli apologist or you're supporting your jewish mates, and of course, you'll deny it, but to me it's as plain as day. It has been obvious for the last 9 months.
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When they had everyone squeezed down into Rafah, I think they probably hoped to drive lots of Gazans into Egypt, but Egypt didn't play ball and open the border.

There'd be a lot more dead if they were trying to ethnically cleanse through killing.
 
ZEV said:
Or maybe we are just trying kill Hamas and get our people back.
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Spoken by an Israeli military leader, this seemed like an obvious point at the start of the conflict and has become more obvious since:

The central stated goal of the war in Gaza — to destroy Hamas — was not possible, and to maintain it was meant "throwing sand in the eyes of the public," Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said. “Hamas is an idea. Anyone who thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong'.

As for just trying to get people home, Netanyahu has shown a recurring ambivalence for such an idea. All indications are that he wants the bloodletting to continue for as long as possible.
 
JB1975 said:
Spoken by an Israeli military leader, this seemed like an obvious point at the start of the conflict and has become more obvious since:

The central stated goal of the war in Gaza — to destroy Hamas — was not possible, and to maintain it was meant "throwing sand in the eyes of the public," Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said. “Hamas is an idea. Anyone who thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong'.

As for just trying to get people home, Netanyahu has shown a recurring ambivalence for such an idea. All indications are that he wants the bloodletting to continue for as long as possible.
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Not many Nazi's around these days.
 
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