Anzac Gallipoli gatherings misguided, Keating says

[Eric Blair]

It is a difficult one for me. Apart from the fact that I am English and was made to feel responsible for the massacre of the ANZACS when I was at school, I think is important to remember it as a very telling part of Australian history.

I hate overt nationalism. It is irrational and based on the fact that one believes a country is better than any other just because one happens to be born there. The sight of people running round on Australai Day wrapped in the Australain flag is sickening. It goes beyond a bit of national pride and is more reminiscent of Hansonism/Howardism/xenophobia rather than a genuine respect for the flag and the freedom it represents. I am no fan of the British National Front either, by the way.

But the problem with Paul Keating is that he has set himself up as something of an iconaclast. He makes some very good points, but he cannot help but make everything he discusses a polar issue. For people with a genuine interest in the ANZAC/Gallipoli legend, a trip to ANZAC Cove would be an amazing experience for them.

I know a young Aussie that worked as a tour guide there. He is a very well travelled guy and has had some amzing times in his travels, but considers the ANZAC dawn service the highlight of all his world travels. While most of the young people on his bus had had a few boozy nights, he said none drank excessively the night before and had all been told that it would not be tolerated. He said that any drunken people would not be allowed on the bus.

There is a separate argument that it is all a glorification of war. When I was much younger, I bought that argument. Now, I believe that it can be a reflective time.

Lest We Forget still gets to me though as many of the people that are quick to say this are many of the ones that rushed us headlong into two ridiculous wars that we are currently still fighting.

This is my first post on the SRP forum so please be gentle...

I have to agree with everything Jim Docker says. Growing up born to Italian parents, i have felt torn between the land of my birth and the land of my origin. Gallipoli is an important part of our history, however for me personally Kokoda was far more important historically and strategically. It was the first time in WW2 that Japanese troops were defeated on land, and defeated decisively. With the Japanese defeat at Kokoda and at Midaway island, their defeat was only a matter of time.

It is important to remember these dates, not to be full of ill placed nationalism, but to reflect on the sacrifices of those who never came back, and those who returned never the same again.

By the way, for those interested in WW1, you may want to look at the history of the Italian front: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Campaign_(World_War_I) and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollettino_della_Vittoria

Just imagine the western front fought in mountains 1-2km above sea level.

 

[Ted38]

A lot of what he says is correct ie., it was (another) British military stuff up just like the other theatre of war The Western Front which tends to get somewhat overlooked by comparison despite the fact that many more Aussie servicemen were killed there.
Unfortunately Anzac Day at Gallipoli has become too commercialized with too many Politicians and hangers on.

 

[Scratcher Gillespie]

Roylion - you're obviously well read on this area, so your opinion is most welcome.

I don't disagree with most of your post regarding the importance of the actual campaign, but most of the sources I have read state that Germany's naval build-up was no-where matching (or having the potential) that of the UK navy, and that the whole enterprise of WW1 was just a tragic, tragic mistake... No-one even agrees exactly why the war started in the first place.

I have also read that prior to allying with France, the UK proposed an alliance with Germany itself.

Just wondering what your thoughts were on this.

 

[fairdinkum]

I cant believe all youse ****s who arent proud of uhstraiya.

If you dont love this country then why dont you just **** off!

Those men died serving this country with honor which is more than any of you pussies ever did.

Before those men gave their lives we were just a piss-ant colony with no heritage, but after 8,000 men died and 20,000 men got injured we became a true country with true spirit. It defines us as a country. We should be proud of it.

I already have a tattoo on my shoulder to prove how proud I am of uhstraiya. Its the one of the emu and the kangaroo.

Im saving up money so I can go to Gallipoli next year with my mates. We are gonna get smashed over there in France or Durkadurkastan or wherever Gallipoli is to celebrate our uhstrayian haritage.

And if paul keating doesnt like that then he can piss off with the rest of you unuhstrayian bastards.

John howard was a ten times better prime minister than him anyway. At least he was proud of uhstraiya!

 

[Richo83]

And that's whats so annoying about Gallipoli, its been turned into some tool of the culture wars. It's un-Australian and downright evil to question the validity that Gallipoli "made" Australia. So instead we're going to wear an aussie flag, get pissed and trash the place which we laud as so special.

Maybe I'm too un-Australian, but I don't get it.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

And that's whats so annoying about Gallipoli, its been turned into some tool of the culture wars. It's un-Australian and downright evil to question the validity that Gallipoli "made" Australia. So instead we're going to wear an aussie flag, get pissed and trash the place which we laud as so special.

Maybe I'm too un-Australian, but I don't get it.

I'm in agreeance with that one.

I'd love to go see Tobruk one day, but I wouldn't imagine a lot of other Aussies would make that pilgrimage even though it arguably defined our "nation" far more than Gallipoli ever did.

My grandfather fought there, and we get the newsletter from the Tobruk society every few months that has copies of letters sent back from servicemen during WW2. Some of the stuff they write about is truly amazing, and terrifying, especially the divebombers attacking the ports.

But the one thing I really notice reading the letters, is that there is definitely a real sense of optimism tinged with utmost fear at what they're doing. You can tell the Aussies back themselves in, but are genuinely fearful of the conflict. The media has turned the idea of an Aussie serviceman into some kind of All-Australian RAMBO fighting for his countries freedom etc.

And out of every letter back from Tobruk that I've read - not ONE mentioned fighting for any particular cause, or any affinity with Australia as a nation. They were with their mates, they were very shook up when their mates died, and they were scared.

 

[mantis]

I've long had a feeling that Anzac Day in general - not just Gallipoli - has been co-opted to celebrate nationalism rather than the remembrance it seems it should be.

Totally agree, Keating is also spot on.

 

[mantis]

It's not a bad point.

That's why i think that if Australians really feel they must identify with something to be proud of then perhaps they'd be better advised to point to the early pioneers,farmers and gold miners--they were tough and resilient buggers;creators. Also the explorers like Hume Hovell et al.

Trouble with those guys is that they didn't treat the natives too well,in the main.

It might be interesting to learn what Keating thinks we SHOULD be proud of,or not.Pride seems a pretty destructive emotion to me,mostly.

I think the "Eureka Stockade" was a more defining point for what is Aussie, we should be celebrating that more than Gallipoli/Anzac Day.

 

[Hass]

Yes, we need to be wary of ANZAC Day falling victim to jingoism. And there are many other conflicts that often get overshadowed by Gallipoli.

But Keating's comments give fuel to people who detest the very idea of ANZAC Day (I'm not including Keating in that category - but as usual, he's shown very little tact).

Even in times when people treat ANZAC Day as it should be treated (a day of sombre reflection) there are people complaining about excessive nationalism. You almost feel that they enjoy the years when people get carried away because it gives them a chance to get on their soapbox.

The fact of the matter is that the First World War was an extremely important part of Australia's history. Australian troops entered the First World War at Gallipoli and payed dearly. It was just a precursor of things to come, but it started there.

In 1915 most Australians still considered themselves part of the British Empire. But being part of that empire had never come at a real price before. 59-thousand Australians died during that war - and for Australians it started at Gallipoli.

I also think it's important that our day of rememberance doesn't take place on the anniversary of a victory, but a monumental loss. It helps us keep things in perspective.

Some people get carried away milking the legend of Gallipoli. But that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[medusala]

I think the "Eureka Stockade" was a more defining point for what is Aussie, we should be celebrating that more than Gallipoli/Anzac Day.

Celebrating rampant racism against coolies?

Celebrating penal taxation?

Its always a pleasure to see someone hold such consistent views.

 

[evo]

Celebrating rampant racism against coolies?

Celebrating penal taxation?

Its always a pleasure to see someone hold such consistent views.

For some reason the left seem to think it was their finest hour,even though it was mainly self employed entrepeneurs rising up against onerous government intervention and taxation

It's a funny old world.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Keating was wrong.

They weren't fighting for England.

They would have been fighting for the bloke standing next to them in the trench who due to how units were drafted was probably their best mate, a relative or a person from their town.

Go look at any memorial plaques in any small country town you drive through and you can see the men from those places who most likely fell beside each other in the field of combat.

Of course once you're in the war and the bullets are dinging overhead you're fighting alongside and for your mates. Before you're deployed to the field though, what made a bloke sign up? Adventure, excitement, maybe.

There would have been 'For King and Empire' posters and banners up too, wouldn't there? What were the kids told in school? Those who didn't go were mailed white feathers and often ostracised by the community, weren't they?

I definitely don't disrespect people who've fought in war, and I've met folk who've fought everywhere from Iraq and Vietnam to Nicaragua and Chechnya. I have issues with the bastards (of all nationalities) who send these poor soldiers out though, often only to come home in boxes. If at all.

I have issues with the bastards who send these young men out only for them to come home suffering nightmares and jumping at shadows for the rest of their lives.

I have issues with the bastards who dreamed up shit like Agent Orange, cluster munitions and depleted uranium, stuff which continues to be a nightmare to the soldiers who used it as well as the populations they were used against. Cancers, tumours, deformed children.

On ANZAC day just one word comes to my mind, one I'd like to put to the Turks and the Germans as well as the Poms, the Yanks, the Kiwis and Aussies.

Why?

 

[medusala]

For some reason the left seem to think it was their finest hour,even though it was mainly self employed entrepeneurs rising up against onerous government intervention and taxation

It's a funny old world.

Lets not forget that union here Lalor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_stockade

Weston Bate in Lucky City at page 134 stated that Peter Lalor "disgraced himself in democratic eyes by trying to use Chinese as strike-breakers at the Clunes mine of which he was a director. He was absolutely ruthless in using low paid Chinese workers to get rid of Australians seeking better and safer working conditions. In parliament he supported a repressive land Bill in 1857 which favoured the rich. There were 17,745 Ballarat signatures to a petition against Lalor's land Bill.

 

[mantis]

Lets not forget that union here Lalor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_stockade

Weston Bate in Lucky City at page 134 stated that Peter Lalor "disgraced himself in democratic eyes by trying to use Chinese as strike-breakers at the Clunes mine of which he was a director. He was absolutely ruthless in using low paid Chinese workers to get rid of Australians seeking better and safer working conditions. In parliament he supported a repressive land Bill in 1857 which favoured the rich. There were 17,745 Ballarat signatures to a petition against Lalor's land Bill.

Wiki, HA HA HA.
http://www.ballarat.com/eurekaffair.htm

 

[evo]

Med,

I'm pleased to report my great great grandfather was a signatory on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Gold_License_Association

Evo's:Fighting 'the man' since 1853

 

[skilts]

Lets not forget that union here Lalor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_stockade

Weston Bate in Lucky City at page 134 stated that Peter Lalor "disgraced himself in democratic eyes by trying to use Chinese as strike-breakers at the Clunes mine of which he was a director. He was absolutely ruthless in using low paid Chinese workers to get rid of Australians seeking better and safer working conditions. In parliament he supported a repressive land Bill in 1857 which favoured the rich. There were 17,745 Ballarat signatures to a petition against Lalor's land Bill.

I've always been bemused by the left's adoption of the Eureka ideal and flag. The moonscape which still exists around Ballarat is testament to the rapacity of the miners and to their total disregard of the environment. These seem not to be actions you'd normally see the left lauding.

 

[medusala]

Wiki, HA HA HA.
http://www.ballarat.com/eurekaffair.htm

Ha ha indeed.

http://sbs.com.au/sbsmain/gold/story.html?storyid=86

Although a political triumph for the miners the Eureka Rebellion also kick-started the initial stages of the White Australia Policy. Increased Chinese immigration to the goldfields created an atmosphere of xenophobia. The goldfield reformation commission viewed the influx of "a pagan and inferior race" to the goldfields as a serious problem. As Australia developed, this issue gave rise to the country's greatest immigration embarrassment, the White Australia Policy.

 

[medusala]

Med,

I'm pleased to report my great great grandfather was a signatory on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Gold_License_Association

Evo's:Fighting 'the man' since 1853

I can't even grab my rifle to man the barricades against penal taxes

Johnny made me hand it in.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Of course once you're in the war and the bullets are dinging overhead you're fighting alongside and for your mates. Before you're deployed to the field though, what made a bloke sign up? Adventure, excitement, maybe.

There would have been 'For King and Empire' posters and banners up too, wouldn't there? What were the kids told in school? Those who didn't go were mailed white feathers and often ostracised by the community, weren't they?

I definitely don't disrespect people who've fought in war, and I've met folk who've fought everywhere from Iraq and Vietnam to Nicaragua and Chechnya. I have issues with the bastards (of all nationalities) who send these poor soldiers out though, often only to come home in boxes. If at all.

I have issues with the bastards who send these young men out only for them to come home suffering nightmares and jumping at shadows for the rest of their lives.

I have issues with the bastards who dreamed up shit like Agent Orange, cluster munitions and depleted uranium, stuff which continues to be a nightmare to the soldiers who used it as well as the populations they were used against. Cancers, tumours, deformed children.

On ANZAC day just one word comes to my mind, one I'd like to put to the Turks and the Germans as well as the Poms, the Yanks, the Kiwis and Aussies.

Why?

More than a few Irish Australians signed up and went to war in WW1.

And they definately weren't fighting for no King as I doubt were any aboriginal soldiers who signed up.




As to the question why?

Because it's what humans have done since the dawn of time.

Surely it's apparent after by a few thousand years of battles and wars that humans love to fight.

Must be in our nature.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

I think the "Eureka Stockade" was a more defining point for what is Aussie, we should be celebrating that more than Gallipoli/Anzac Day.

How many Australians were at Eureka Stockade?

Peter Lalor had been in the country a whole 2 years before it.

In fact the whole thing was more about the Irish-English relations in Australia than anyone else.

Especially considering most of those killed at the Stockade were Irish.

Of the approximately 120 'diggers' detained after the rebellion, thirteen were brought to trial. They were:[17]

Timothy Hayes, Chairman of the Ballarat Reform League, from Ireland
James McFie Campbell a black man from Kingston Jamaica
Raffaello Carboni, an Italian and trusted lieutenant who was in charge of the European diggers as he spoke a few European languages. Carboni self published his account of the Eureka Stockade a year after the Stockade, the only comprehensive eyewitness account.
Jacob Sorenson, a Jew from Scotland
John Manning, a Ballarat Times journalist, from Ireland
John Phelan, a friend and business partner of Peter Lalor, from Ireland
Thomas Dignum, born in Sydney
John Joseph, a black American from New York
James Beattie, from Ireland
William Molloy, from Ireland
Jan Vennick, from Holland
Michael Tuohy, from Ireland
Henry Reid, from Ireland

So basically only one Australian born person.

At least the ANZACS were our own.


And it shouldn't be forgotten these same stockade miners were the kind who used to kick the Chinese miners around.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

More than a few Irish Australians signed up and went to war in WW1.

And they definately weren't fighting for no King as I doubt were any aboriginal soldiers who signed up.

Definitely not all who signed up were signing up to fight for the King. Maybe for the country, but not for the King. When WW1 broke out there wasn't an Irish Republic either, and many Irish in Ireland lost their lives in France and elsewhere too.

A man of 1914 may have joined the armed services with any number of notions within his mind, but at the end of the day he was still wearing the same uniform as thousands of others, fighting for the preservation of Empire. German, Aussie, Turk, his own ideals were always secondary at best.

As to the question why?

Because it's what humans have done since the dawn of time.

Surely it's apparent after by a few thousand years of battles and wars that humans love to fight.

Must be in our nature.

Humans may have done it since the dawn of time, and we may love to fight. But we are also intelligent creatures. Why is murder a crime? If I see something nice that I want, why can't I kill (if necessary) in order to take it?

We're sentinent beings, not animals. We know, or SHOULD know, that to take another's life and belongings is just bloody wrong.

 

[mantis]

How many Australians were at Eureka Stockade?

Peter Lalor had been in the country a whole 2 years before it.

In fact the whole thing was more about the Irish-English relations in Australia than anyone else.

Especially considering most of those killed at the Stockade were Irish.




So basically only one Australian born person.

At least the ANZACS were our own.


And it shouldn't be forgotten these same stockade miners were the kind who used to kick the Chinese miners around.

Don't be bloody stupid, in the 1850's, the only Australians were Aboriginals.

Plus it amuses me, that at times you are flouting your Irish heritage, over your Aussie one. Decide what you are, Irish or Australian.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Humans may have done it since the dawn of time, and we may love to fight. But we are also intelligent creatures. Why is murder a crime? If I see something nice that I want, why can't I kill (if necessary) in order to take it?

We're sentinent beings, not animals. We know, or SHOULD know, that to take another's life and belongings is just bloody wrong.

You mean we like to think we are intelligent.

Maslow's Law(at the base level of the pyramid) shows we are not that different from any other creature on the planet in our primary needs and desires.

It's as we move up the chart that the human trait of greed creeps in and starts to dictate our actions.

Greed is the single factor for most wars and battles over time.

 

[Clay Davis]

Did the threat from Turkey to Australia's interests justify the cost?

Had that many young men not died would Australia be a more prosperous nation today?

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Don't be bloody stupid, in the 1850's, the only Australians were Aboriginals.

Plus it amuses me, that at times you are flouting your Irish heritage, over your Aussie one. Decide what you are, Irish or Australian.

Right, so you're saying the defining monent for Australians was an event when there were basically no Australians present.

Kinda losses it's relevence to an Australian then don't you think?


I don't have to choose I have dual citizenship.

Best of both worlds, tis grand.