These events came after Gallipoli, but did strenghten our reputation. I was talking about where we took the first steps to where we are now.
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Anzac Gallipoli gatherings misguided, Keating says
- Thread starter Dont be a lemon
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- Banned
- #27
Why the hell should we define ourselves by military endeavors??? It boggles my mind that people think like that, it really does 
- Feb 14, 2002
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of a Freudian slip here. Otherwise, I can't help but think of my times rooting in Richmond. Found some great truffles I did. They would have gone well with your junket.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
Please,lets show a bit of decorum.What you meant to say was :
The simulation in the narrative has replaced the original in all discourse and manifestation.
- Banned
- #30
That's pretty tame in the scheme of things.
- Banned
- #31
Why the hell should we define ourselves by military endeavors??? It boggles my mind that people think like that, it really does
Because it takes more balls to go fight in a war than it does any other pursuit?
- Banned
- #32
Balls, or abject stupidity? They amount to about the same thing...
It is a difficult one for me. Apart from the fact that I am English and was made to feel responsible for the massacre of the ANZACS when I was at school, I think is important to remember it as a very telling part of Australian history.
I hate overt nationalism. It is irrational and based on the fact that one believes a country is better than any other just because one happens to be born there. The sight of people running round on Australai Day wrapped in the Australain flag is sickening. It goes beyond a bit of national pride and is more reminiscent of Hansonism/Howardism/xenophobia rather than a genuine respect for the flag and the freedom it represents. I am no fan of the British National Front either, by the way.
But the problem with Paul Keating is that he has set himself up as something of an iconaclast. He makes some very good points, but he cannot help but make everything he discusses a polar issue. For people with a genuine interest in the ANZAC/Gallipoli legend, a trip to ANZAC Cove would be an amazing experience for them.
I know a young Aussie that worked as a tour guide there. He is a very well travelled guy and has had some amzing times in his travels, but considers the ANZAC dawn service the highlight of all his world travels. While most of the young people on his bus had had a few boozy nights, he said none drank excessively the night before and had all been told that it would not be tolerated. He said that any drunken people would not be allowed on the bus.
There is a separate argument that it is all a glorification of war. When I was much younger, I bought that argument. Now, I believe that it can be a reflective time.
Lest We Forget still gets to me though as many of the people that are quick to say this are many of the ones that rushed us headlong into two ridiculous wars that we are currently still fighting.
I hate overt nationalism. It is irrational and based on the fact that one believes a country is better than any other just because one happens to be born there. The sight of people running round on Australai Day wrapped in the Australain flag is sickening. It goes beyond a bit of national pride and is more reminiscent of Hansonism/Howardism/xenophobia rather than a genuine respect for the flag and the freedom it represents. I am no fan of the British National Front either, by the way.
But the problem with Paul Keating is that he has set himself up as something of an iconaclast. He makes some very good points, but he cannot help but make everything he discusses a polar issue. For people with a genuine interest in the ANZAC/Gallipoli legend, a trip to ANZAC Cove would be an amazing experience for them.
I know a young Aussie that worked as a tour guide there. He is a very well travelled guy and has had some amzing times in his travels, but considers the ANZAC dawn service the highlight of all his world travels. While most of the young people on his bus had had a few boozy nights, he said none drank excessively the night before and had all been told that it would not be tolerated. He said that any drunken people would not be allowed on the bus.
There is a separate argument that it is all a glorification of war. When I was much younger, I bought that argument. Now, I believe that it can be a reflective time.
Lest We Forget still gets to me though as many of the people that are quick to say this are many of the ones that rushed us headlong into two ridiculous wars that we are currently still fighting.
- Banned
- #34
From what iv'e read on it, for alot of them it was about a sense of adventure.
They didn't live in a world where you could just jump on a plane and go live in London for a year and get on the piss.
For them it was an opportunity to go see parts of the world they would never otherwise see.
Sure they were naive, but it's that sense of adventure which helped build the nation in the first place that is to be praised.
Another aspect I was taught about was our ingunuity in the field of battle in regards to the many things that Australian soldiers invented during Gallipoli.
Even down to the self firing gun set ups that made the Turks think we were still there to allow us to evacuate the beach with far less casualties.
That creative inginuity is also part of the culture from the stump jump ploughs to the hills hoist and the victa mower.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
It's not a bad point.
That's why i think that if Australians really feel they must identify with something to be proud of then perhaps they'd be better advised to point to the early pioneers,farmers and gold miners--they were tough and resilient buggers;creators. Also the explorers like Hume Hovell et al.
Trouble with those guys is that they didn't treat the natives too well,in the main.
It might be interesting to learn what Keating thinks we SHOULD be proud of,or not.Pride seems a pretty destructive emotion to me,mostly.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
Hahaha. Touche'
I made that too easy, didn't I.
I made that too easy, didn't I.
- Banned
- #38
I just couldn't resist.
- Banned
- #39
Rats of Tobruk, especially the fighting 9th, deserve more credit than any other unit in military history imo.
- Banned
- #40
Different situation back then. Traditional propaganda was much more effective and a lot of the blokes that went were very, very, young.
So you want early, how about 1901, when we became separated from mother England and became an independent nation?
Or does only military affairs count?
Like it or not, now most Australians hold a weak link with the events of 93 years ago.
- Banned
- #44
They were fighting for a lot of individual reasons. Some were fighting for money. Some for adventure. Some because they were brainwashed. Some for Australia. Some for England.
Its impossible to give a blanket reason for it.
- Moderator
- #45
I tend to disagree with much of the above statement.
I doubt strongly Australia was "Dragged into service by the imperial government." The Australian government regarded Britain and therefore the British Empire as being part of their ‘national interests’. Australia’s security in the Far East in 1914 was tied up with Britain’s naval dominance and therefore the Australian government was keen not to see British naval power diminished through German'ys pursuit of a policy of 'Weltpolitik' where they wanted to create a colonial empire to rival those of other powers and especially Britain.
The most important element of Germany's 'Weltpolitik' policy was the construction of a navy, which would rival, or even exceed, Britain’s Royal Navy in strength. As Edward Grey stated in the House of Commons on March 29, 1909… ”But if the German navy were superior to ours, they maintaining the army which they do, for us it would not be a question of defeat. Our independence, our very existence would be at stake. . . for us the navy is what the army is to them...”
The Australian government in 1914, clearly had the same opinion. They saw Britain’s war as their war. Containing/curtailing Germany’s Weltpolitik ambitions would guarantee Australia’s economic security, considering that her largest trading partner was Britain as well as her security if Britain's naval dominance was maintained.
Australia was supporting Britain's attempts to:
1) maintain the existing European and world balance of power by supporting France and Russia thereby preventing British isolation if France and Russia were defeated in a continental war. Britain (and Australia) couldn't allow France and Russia to be defeated.
2) resist Germany's attempts to expand her influence which was widely considered would threaten some of Britain's colonies and therefore the power and prestige of the British empire of which Australia was still firmly a part of.
3) stop possible Turkish threats to strategic British possessions such as the Suez Canal, also important to Australia's economy, considering much of our exports travelled to Europe.
In the wider context of World War I, Gallipoli wasn't exactly ill-conceived (although I agree it was poorly planned).
The main reasons why Gallipoli was attacked were:
The potential for making a difference on the Western front was enormous. By forcing the Dardanelles, Britain had an opportunity to:
1) Strike a blow at Germany by defeating one of their two main allies.
2) Establishing a sea route to Russia's warm-water ports to help Britain's ally Russia with arms and supplies for the war on Eastern Front and the Southern Front (both of which were tying up Russian troops that Britain felt would be better served fighting the Germans, rather than the Austro-Hungarians and the Turks.)
3) To relieve/remove the Ottoman threat upon the British controlled Suez Canal, the loss of which would have been a significant strategic disaster, both for Britain and Australia.
In the short term Gallipoli was a failure especially in relation to 1) and 3), but in the end the wider context it did make a contribution. As Herbert Asquith stated in 1917, that the importance of Gallipoli, even if its' immediate objectives were not fulfilled has been understated. “It saved the position of Russia in the Caucasus, delayed for months the defection of Bulgaria, kept at least 300,000 Turks immobilised and was one of the contributory causes of the favourable development of events in Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia.”
bush_tucker77
Senior List
Keating should do himself a favour and visit Gallipoli to see if perhaps he’s wrong again in his assertions.
Keating is an ignorant fool still trying to find relevance in a country that deemed him irrelevant years ago.
This is a free country with freedom of speech, Keating is free to have and expouse these opinions, it may however be wise for him to remember and be a little more respectful of the people who fought to retain that freedom.
Keating is an ignorant fool still trying to find relevance in a country that deemed him irrelevant years ago.
This is a free country with freedom of speech, Keating is free to have and expouse these opinions, it may however be wise for him to remember and be a little more respectful of the people who fought to retain that freedom.
To be fair, I do not think he was attacking the diggers, just the way the event is held by many Australians.
- Banned
- #48
Keating was wrong.
They weren't fighting for England.
They would have been fighting for the bloke standing next to them in the trench who due to how units were drafted was probably their best mate, a relative or a person from their town.
Go look at any memorial plaques in any small country town you drive through and you can see the men from those places who most likely fell beside each other in the field of combat.
Australian military history yes, they were especially brave in holding out the Axis powers. Australia played a key part in that effort, and to me that is as defining as any other military battle.
Roy is right of course. I think though that the Gallipoli campaign gets overblown, sometimes to the detriment of other equally important efforts such as Tobruk or the western front.
Spot on ASMS, hit the nail on the head.
I get the feeling Keating doesn't have too many mates and doesn't understand what this actually means.
