Are we cursed?

[jmac70]

Well that was a mighty long feed icw with a round of golf.

OK back to it JMac . Firstly let me be clear before we start. I am a long standing Pies supporter, probably longer than you as I suspect I’m a little older. It doesn’t make me any more or less a supporter of course but it has given me the luxury of time to both passionately and of more recent times dispassionately observe the mechinations of our club albeit from a distance. I remember how gutted you were after the recent 2108 GF loss and I totally got it. My primary emotion was also disappointment but I got over it quite quickly because frankly I had seen/witnessed this many times before. Previous GF losses sat with me for a lot longer but not anymore. So I suspect you, along with most other Pies supporters, will largely disagree with my comments below and that’s perfectly OK.

The two most significant happenings/events that underwrote Collingwood over the past 20 odd years are as follows:

• The appointment of President McGuire – I liken McGuire’s presidency at Collingwood to 2 halves of a game of footy. The first half under the Malthouse era culminating in the 2010 flag. At that point, you might argue that the club was 8 goals up at half time. I think we all agree that McGuire’s appointment back in 1999 was the clear catalyst that materially changed the club for the better across all spectrums of the club – on field success, financial stability, sponsorship, member base and also becoming relevant again. In view of this, we all owe McGuire our eternal thanks for his single minded commitment to the success of the club. The second half of his tenure has been underpinned by the coaching succession plan.

• The Coaching Succession Plan – at the time back in 2009, the announcement of the coaching succession plan was viewed by many as revolutionary and on the face of it, it was. I remember like it was yesterday that press conference with McGuire ushering his 2 men together. Buckley looked a little bit circumspect and Malthouse, being Malthouse, not clearly not happy. Now many will argue that in fact the succession plan fast tracked the 2010 flag as Malthouse knew his time was nigh. I’m happy with this argument.

So, in view of the above, the things that could have been done differently:

• The timing of the coaching succession plan handover. I have no problems with the concept but the timing of the handover was a disaster. Now let’s but the personalities aside for a moment and look at the process. The incumbent senior coach had just taken the team to a flag in 2010 and a GF in 2011. This playing group was fully aligned to their senior coach of the day and to end their relationship with a gut wrenching GF loss was ridiculous. Where was the chance for redemption? It was taken away from this playing group who had journeyed with their coach. Hence a lost opportunity for possibly another flag in that 1-2 year window.
• Not allowing/insisting that Buckley experience and diversify his skills at another club environment as has been the case with other greats – Hodge and Mitchell come to mind . For me, this was all on McGuire (and Kelly and Pert). Was McGuire that insecure and that infatuated with Buckley that he was not prepared to do what would have been the best thing for Buckley’s development as a potential future senior coach – experience away from the Collingwood fish bowl. Imagine what learnings Buckley could have bought back to the club down the track. Buckley was put in a no win position taking over from a premiership coach at the time.
• As an extension of point (ii), providing Buckley with the opportunity to come back to the club (which I have no doubt he would have) post the retirement of all/most of the players that he played with. There was no doubt that there was friction early days between Buckley and these players and McGuire should have been mindful that this was likely to occur.
• McGuire’s extended tenure as President – on any reasonably objective basis, the 2nd half of McGuire’s tenure has been far less successful and has been completely wed to the success or otherwise of the succession plan. 20 years is a long time in anyone’s language and a fresh sets of eyes/ideas is well overdue. But this won’t happen as McGuire is all powerful both at the club and media land and hence, except for the occasional gaffe, he is not sufficiently taken to task. No one is prepared to do it for fear of backlash to their careers. McGuire will leave on his terms, whenever that may be and I suggest he has no desire to go until his much heralded succession plan results in a flag. This is not how a professional sporting club should be managed in modern times. End of 2021 will be interesting if there is no flag in the next 2 years.
• Recruiting and Injury Management – this is not my area of speciality so I will leave it to others to judge. Suffice to say the soft tissue injury toll mounts up year after year so something is not right. As for recruiting, I think we could take a leaf out of Hawthorn’s play book and recruit players for specific roles ie Lake comes to mind. It’s not that we have recruited poorly but we seem to recruit names rather than those who can play a specific role/fill a hole when the premiership window is open.
• A Ruthless Professional Edge – consider this hypothetical. Imagine the hysteria if the Pies off loaded the likes of Pendlebury and/or Sidebottom at the back end of their careers for the purposes of rebuilding for the future and/or to give these players the opportunity to prep themselves for footy roles after their playing days. The club would blow up. And yet the most successful club of our generation allowed their out and out champions (Hodge and Mitchell) to do so. In fact Hawthorn encouraged these champions to move on for their own self betterment and knowing that the club will likely benefit in the long term should these players return in some capacity. This would never ever happen at Collingwood under the current regime. Ever. The Buckley appointment is confirmation of that.

BTW, I appreciate the effort you put into this. Quality work from someone who clearly cares for this club.
Respect.

 

[Help My Club]

But for one kick that second half would also have been golden. The window is still open. We can win it next year.

Yes you are older than me, but I lived those darker years through my old man. This is not a time for us to turn on each other. The strength of Collingwood is its people, the barrackers.

I truly believe that this time next year we will be celebrating sweet 16 together.

Go you Mighty Pies.

Mate, I admire your positivity. Keep it up.

Sweet 16 eh. And never been kissed?

 

[jmac70]

Mate, I admire your positivity. Keep it up.

Sweet 16 eh. And never been kissed?

I still remember my first kiss. Oh what a night...

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Lol

the only thing lolworthy is that the self proclaimed “biggest club in the land” doesn’t employ a full time ruck coach to further better the best ruckman in the competition, no full time sports psychology staff and arguably the worst medical and fitness department in the competition.

but I’m sure they’re all real...”proud” of all they’ve achieved since 2010.

 

[jmac70]

the only thing lolworthy is that the self proclaimed “biggest club in the land” doesn’t employ a full time ruck coach to further better the best ruckman in the competition, no full time sports psychology staff and arguably the worst medical and fitness department in the competition.

but I’m sure they’re all real...”proud” of all they’ve achieved since 2010.

You are very silly.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

You are very silly.

Yet nothing I said in the post you quoted is incorrect.

 

[AndrewShawble]

the only thing lolworthy is that the self proclaimed “biggest club in the land” doesn’t employ a full time ruck coach to further better the best ruckman in the competition, no full time sports psychology staff and arguably the worst medical and fitness department in the competition.

but I’m sure they’re all real...”proud” of all they’ve achieved since 2010.

Agree. We have so many backwards ways of being run, time for some new leadership - fresh ideas after 20 years. Unless people are happy with 1 flag every 20....

 

[magpie_marty]

From reading all the posts I get the feeling we all love Collingwood,
And as supporters we are trying our best to find reasons that will improve things and that's cool,I admire that.
So we move on and respect each other and look forward to 2020,
This season went so fast I am getting old dammit.

 

[domus]

That is absolutely true. The greatest luck you have in life is good health. If you don't , no money can compensate.

Your argument falls down when you equate the luck part to Collingwood. We are a very healthy club with a hell of a lot going for us. Our failures are mostly self inflicted. Look at North in comparison, poor as a church mouse in comparison, yet they have built up great sides twice in the last 50 years, whilst we never had. 8 other sides have built great teams in that time, we have not done so once. That's not luck, that's incompetence.

There is no luck involved when you are 44 points up in a GF and lose, or when you kick the first 5 goals of a GF and lose not once but twice, or you are 27 points up in a GF and 3/4 time and lose. There is a trend there.

Blaming luck all the time is the mindset of a loser, and that is perhaps Collingwood's problem.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote has zero credibility. The running theme on this thread has been anyone who dares to suggest bad luck has played a huge role in our ongoing misery is cowardly, childish and ignorant.- a person who simply refuses to look at the cold facts. Any objective person only has to take a quick look at our history in grand finals to realize what an absurd allegation this is.

You mention North and their comparative wealth. What in the name of all that is good does that have to do with us leading more than one grand final with five minutes remaining, only to lose? You say "our failures are mostly self inflicted" _more tommy rot. Some have been self inflicted. Most have been agonizing near misses due to the many factors I have already mentioned in previous posts. The way you and others write one would be inclined to wonder how this train wreck of a club managed to find itself playing in so many grand finals and losing so many of them by a kick or two. Do you have an answer?

How has this poorly managed, incompetent club, outperformed all of the other clubs in the art of reaching the pinnacle of our game, only to fall agonizingly short? Such incompetence must be the envy of the 16 other smoothly run teams. People keep citing our persistence in establishing big leads and squandering them. That notion can be flipped on its head. Are you suggesting Carlton were a superior club as far as administration and coaching was concerned in 1970? If so, was it their grand plan to be trailing by 8 goals at half time or at one stage allowing the opposition to have 18 scoring shots to four at one stage in the first half? Brilliant plan! It is nonsense.

Had we run over the Giants on Saturday night and bar an elbow and goalpost we would have-would you have hailed our team for its magnificent comeback just as everyone did the Blues in 1970? Or would you be outraged by the fact that we allowed the opposition to get so far ahead?

The same can be said for last year. It is an absolute joke for any one to blame that loss on anything other than luck. How often have you heard players and coaches say after a tight win- it could have gone either way, we just happened to be in front when the siren blew? They say it because it is TRUE. It just so happens that we are always on the losing side when that siren sounds and it comes down to a flip of the coin, a bounce of the ball or the blow of a whistle.

When we are outplayed comprehensively in a grand final you congratulate the opposition and look at what went wrong. When you lose by less than a kick you grieve and sit with a sick feeling in your gut that may never go. The pain comes from the fact that there is nothing to learn from the loss-that is the fabricated teddy bear losers cling to. You have lost and you will never have a chance to win that game again. It is gone.

Pretending you can gain something from a grand final loss is the mindset of someone who cannot face reality. Each new opportunity has no relationship whatsoever with any previous chances. Those who say we have endured bad luck are correct. It has been quite a stunning and astonishing story when you look more deeply into our history.

 

[jmac70]

I'm sorry, but what you wrote has zero credibility. The running theme on this thread has been anyone who dares to suggest bad luck has played a huge role in our ongoing misery is cowardly, childish and ignorant.- a person who simply refuses to look at the cold facts. Any objective person only has to take a quick look at our history in grand finals to realize what an absurd allegation this is.

You mention North and their comparative wealth. What in the name of all that is good does that have to do with us leading more than one grand final with five minutes remaining, only to lose? You say "our failures are mostly self inflicted" _more tommy rot. Some have been self inflicted. Most have been agonizing near misses due to the many factors I have already mentioned in previous posts. The way you and others write one would be inclined to wonder how this train wreck of a club managed to find itself playing in so many grand finals and losing so many of them by a kick or two. Do you have an answer?

How has this poorly managed, incompetent club, outperformed all of the other clubs in the art of reaching the pinnacle of our game, only to fall agonizingly short? Such incompetence must be the envy of the 16 other smoothly run teams. People keep citing our persistence in establishing big leads and squandering them. That notion can be flipped on its head. Are you suggesting Carlton were a superior club as far as administration and coaching was concerned in 1970? If so, was it their grand plan to be trailing by 8 goals at half time or at one stage allowing the opposition to have 18 scoring shots to four at one stage in the first half? Brilliant plan! It is nonsense.

Had we run over the Giants on Saturday night and bar an elbow and goalpost we would have-would you have hailed our team for its magnificent comeback just as everyone did the Blues in 1970? Or would you be outraged by the fact that we allowed the opposition to get so far ahead?

The same can be said for last year. It is an absolute joke for any one to blame that loss on anything other than luck. How often have you heard players and coaches say after a tight win- it could have gone either way, we just happened to be in front when the siren blew? They say it because it is TRUE. It just so happens that we are always on the losing side when that siren sounds and it comes down to a flip of the coin, a bounce of the ball or the blow of a whistle.

When we are outplayed comprehensively in a grand final you congratulate the opposition and look at what went wrong. When you lose by less than a kick you grieve and sit with a sick feeling in your gut that may never go. The pain comes from the fact that there is nothing to learn from the loss-that is the fabricated teddy bear losers cling to. You have lost and you will never have a chance to win that game again. It is gone.

Pretending you can gain something from a grand final loss is the mindset of someone who cannot face reality. Each new opportunity has no relationship whatsoever with any previous chances. Those who say we have endured bad luck are correct. It has been quite a stunning and astonishing story when you look more deeply into our history.

Well said.

 

[jmac70]

The next generation will take our club forward without the baggage of the past.

 

[Vicky Park]

The next generation will take out club forward without the baggage of the past.

Bloody hope so jmac.

I also hope we are not having this same discussion next year, after missing out on a PF or a GF or a flag by a kick (again). After playing like superstars in patches throughout the season, failing to put teams away, and cobbling together sides while key players watch on injured. Feels like we are in a holding pattern, and it’s slowly killing us...

 

[jmac70]

Bloody hope so jmac.

I also hope we are not having this same discussion next year, after missing out on a PF or a GF or a flag by a kick (again). After playing like superstars in patches throughout the season, failing to put teams away, and cobbling together sides while key players watch on injured. Feels like we are in a holding pattern, and it’s slowly killing us...

We might be VP. Barracking for this club is hard. That golden day will arrive though.

 

[jmac70]

Break for me too I think. Forget about footy for a while.

Enjoy summer and drink beer.

Cya

 

[jonbe54]

Agree. We have so many backwards ways of being run, time for some new leadership - fresh ideas after 20 years. Unless people are happy with 1 flag every 20....

Ok so you are aware that there are 17 - yes SEVENTEEN other clubs in this competition - AND that 6 of those are directly subsidized by the controlling organization that runs this competition?

You know the organization that has a VESTED INTEREST in assuring the success of those 6 clubs.

If you are aware of those facts and still come to the conclusion that you posted . . .

Just WOW.

 

[spartan-magpie]

Yes. We are. I’ve said many times, we need to get a Greek priest in there to exorcise the demons in the joint. After that we need to bring in a mufti, a rabbi, more priests, some monks, witch doctors, Medicine men, clairvoyants, Harry Potter, dr. Oz, and anyone else that can rid us of the thing that stops up winning the flag much more often than we do.

And since our boys love dabbling in the ink arts they all need to invest in the eye.

 

[Captivating]

We are cursed but we also excel at making shit decision...like resigning Ben Reid for 2020.

Combined, it's obvious why we suck and have won just 2 flags since 1959

 

[PieLebo87]

We are cursed but we also excel at making s**t decision...like resigning Ben Reid for 2020.

Combined, it's obvious why we suck and have won just 2 flags since 1959

I said the exact same thing earlier when I read we’d resigned him.

 

[Collingwood 4 eternity]

Well that was a mighty long feed icw with a round of golf.

OK back to it JMac . Firstly let me be clear before we start. I am a long standing Pies supporter, probably longer than you as I suspect I’m a little older. It doesn’t make me any more or less a supporter of course but it has given me the luxury of time to both passionately and of more recent times dispassionately observe the mechinations of our club albeit from a distance. I remember how gutted you were after the recent 2108 GF loss and I totally got it. My primary emotion was also disappointment but I got over it quite quickly because frankly I had seen/witnessed this many times before. Previous GF losses sat with me for a lot longer but not anymore. So I suspect you, along with most other Pies supporters, will largely disagree with my comments below and that’s perfectly OK.

It seems Our grand kids grand kids cannot even escape our Grand Final loss curse

 

[Hairydawg]

I have no doubt that many people are what we term "lucky" in life and others are "unlucky". Would you dispute this? Surely we all know that there is the kind of bloke who smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, bludges but wins tattslotto and lives to be a hundred. We also know the bloke who works his butt off, lives a healthy life but gets retrenched and then diagnosed with a terminal cancer at thirty

Surely, if we can call one lucky and the other unlucky, these same words can be applied to sportsmen or football clubs? What do we mean when we say unlucky? It means when there is a chance things could work out or go badly wrong, the latter always seems to happen even though there is nothing the person did to deserve it. Their longed for kid born with a severe disability, spouse dies, gets retrenched, house burns down while the neighbour's home survives the fire. Others always seem to land on their feet through no particular reason. The same can apply to individuals in sport and teams too.

There’s no disputing there is a concept called luck, and that it’s very real. And that Collingwood has been unlucky, maybe even disproportionately unlucky compared to other teams. A curse as a concept is a bit different to that, and the fear is that, as an accepted mythology, it gives us all a bit of an excuse - “it’s just the Pies and our curse.” By taking control of the things that we can, such as being in better command of games, or having better depth to our list, we won’t put ourselves in a position of an unlucky bounce here, an unlucky opposition late goal hero there, etc.

 

[Hairydawg]

I’m Druze.

I had never heard of Druze and just read up on them in Wikipedia. Interesting history.

 

[Hairydawg]

I think you might be right!



I partly agree. We are going well enough in 2018-2019, but not good enough if you take the long view. Of course I dont blame Eddie for all the mistakes of the last 60 years which have resulted in our horrendous premiership record. But he has been around for 20 of them, and that's a long time for an AFL footy club. He must be nearing a record.

Edit: I just googled 'longest serving AFL presidents' and this article, from 2017, indicates that he is up there.

Eddie has done tremendous things for us: helped modernise the club, dragged us kicking and screaming into our post-Victoria Park future, and set the club up financially. He will be revered for all these good works, despite achieving only one flag.

But on your point about change for changes sake, I dont have a problem with that. Ed was 34 when appointed to the role. Why not move on for the next best person, with different ideas and perspectives? I dont think we should be frightened of change, and I dont think our recent record is so good that Ed is untouchable.

Wow, giving away my age here but 34 seems so young. And yes he’s been good for some of those reasons you list. It made me wonder whether in a parallel universe another president would have done similar things regarding training ground etc. Ed seems to be a progressive thinker, or used to be. I wonder where his mind goes in his darkest moments? It must drive him mad sometimes. I’m sure he has thought about stepping down. Maybe this year will be the catalyst?

 

[Hairydawg]

You speak a lot of dribble Mr Cliff Drabble.

I thought Cliff was going okay there.

 

[Mick F]

Lol. We played a cumulative total of about five quarters of football this year.

What on earth would’ve indicated that any of what we produced was going to end with us covered in glory?

Exactly. It’s nice that supporters are loyal and positive, but “if we bring our A Grade game” is not a great plan when it’s a flukers chance of occurring.

 

[Nuwanda]

Ok so you are aware that there are 17 - yes SEVENTEEN other clubs in this competition - AND that 6 of those are directly subsidized by the controlling organization that runs this competition?

You know the organization that has a VESTED INTEREST in assuring the success of those 6 clubs.

If you are aware of those facts and still come to the conclusion that you posted . . .

Just WOW.

Rubbish. You’re making excuses again for yourself.

Rather than continue to do this, open your eyes to the clubs that have been successful both on and off the field.

How many of Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond, West Coast are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl?

Or do you see Collingwood as part of the next rung down of clubs?

I don’t! I’d rather compare my club to the best clubs in the country which is where it was. But hang on, your view is that injuries are the sole reason why we are behind. Oh, and now it’s because other clubs are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl. This is the attitude of someone making excuses.

The clubs I’ve mentioned above should be respected and admired for what they have achieved. There is no reason why we can’t get back there.

It’s proper corporate governance to bring about a change to the president. 20 years in the role is a very long time. It gets to the situation whereby you feel more a sense of ‘ownership’ rather than being the custodian of the club.

Eddie has to be admired what he has done. But IMO he should have passed the baton on a few years ago. There are other great people out there who can lead the club. I’m not saying Craig Kelly is necessarily the answer, however, he recently sold his successful business so may have time on his hands.