Opinion Are we on the verge of another period of dominance from teams not based in Melbourne?

[Kwickhatch]

if you listen to dimma that 2 train station trip to marvel is pretty taxing for the mcg tenants, probably equivalent to those flight miles at minimum

Must be so hard on them

 

[VicBased]

Yet the following week after playing in Alice Springs, Melbourne play an "away" game against the Bulldogs at Marvel, meanwhile Adelaide's next away game was in Sydney. Hawthorn's next "away" game after playing Gold Coast in Launceston was against Richmond at the MCG, meanwhile Gold Coast's next away game was in Melbourne. Bulldogs play the Crows in Ballarat and the following week they play Essendon at Marvel, meanwhile the Crows next play away against Carlton at Marvel. Do you see how this could possibly be considered unfair? The "away" games in Melbourne (particularly a week after having travelled) offset the disadvantage that you're trying to argue. There's also the fact that several non-Victorian teams also host games outside of their home state e.g. GWS playing home games in Canberra, Gold Coast playing home games in Darwin, and those games are followed by a genuine interstate trip for an away game, which just gives the Vic teams an even greater advantage. So your statement of 'Adelaide always plays home games in Adelaide' doesn't apply to all non-Victorian team; in fact some are getting treated even worse than a team like the Crows.

The real inequity in the league comes in the form of travel. Victorian teams travel far less than non-Victorian teams and that's an obvious advantage when you get to September and every is team has their own struggles with fatigue/injuries. These games that see Melbourne-based teams travel to other states/territories to host "home" games actually brings the league closer to an equitable draw. Hawthorn for example played 14 games in Melbourne last year compared to Adelaide's 12 games played in Adelaide. It's not equal but it's reasonably close and I think most non-Victorians would cop that compared to a team like Richmond who played 17 games in Melbourne this year. Don't even get me started on the fact that the GWS only play 8 games in their home city and Gold Coast only play 9 games in their home city these days.

A very sound argument but you will find that Vic supporters are deaf dumb and blind when if comes to understanding travel fatigue.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I wonder how long the dominance needs to occur before the Victoria teams accept they are massively favoured in multiple way.

If they win 90 GF's in 100 years, would they accept it or would they just complain they did not win the other 10?

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I wonder how long the dominance needs to occur before the Victoria teams accept they are massively favoured in multiple way.

If they win 90 GF's in 100 years, would they accept it or would they just complain they did not win the other 10?

I didn't complain, I enjoyed that era very much (especially when Collingwood and Essendon lost GFs to Brisbane)

 

[VicBased]

I didn't complain, I enjoyed that era very much (especially when Collingwood and Essendon lost GFs to Brisbane)

You my friend are an exception to the rule .
Without a change that era will not be repeated.
WC 1990-1995 and Brissy 2000-2004 were super teams and the AFL have made sure that won't happen again.

 

[Obeanie1]

Collingwood aint hard done by.

But * me, the non-Melbourne fans sook non-stop.

8 of the 12 last top4 positions have been filled by non-Melbourne teams. The H&A fixture doesnt favour Melbourne teams.

The non-Melbourne teams then lost home finals to travelling Melbourne based teams.

Port and Brisbane just werent good enough when it mattered in finals despite playing at home.

Nice one. Base your argument on a single final series and ignore the mountain of evidence over a long period of time.

As for sooking your old mate Eddie did that for you. AFL investigation to why non Vic sides were being successful. Changes made and Vic dominance returns. What a surprise.

Every time VFL House makes another dodgy Vic centric call that is focused on $$$ not fairness we will continue to point it out. And that wont stop until a better balance between teams is found. So instead of saying 'they sook all the time' how about wondering why are Vic sides being advantaged so often at the expense of non Vic sides, and especially the established SA and WA clubs.

A Tassie team will be great, then every team can start travelling to Tassie. Not just interstate sides playing the Hawks.

Maybe with a 60,000 seat stadium some Melbourne big clubs will go to Geelong and get spanked playing away against the best side of the last 10 years.

The free agancy model has seriously advantaged Vic teams. The AFL can easily do an audit every 5 or 10 years and rank which teams have benefited the most v those who have not benefited much at all. The least they could do is even the ledger with a compo pick for the clubs who geographicly are excluded from being involded in the majority of FA moves.

But these equalisation measures dont benefit Vic teams so wont happen.

 

[bh90210fan]

Except that travel fatigue and jet lag is backed by science. Many studies have shown adverse effects and poor physical performance after travel.

You cannot compare the NBA and NHL to the AFL and make any strong conclusions. NBA and NHL do have multiple games per week but they have more players allowed to play.. NBA 5 on the court 12 total dressed for the game. Nhl 6 on the ice and 20 total dressed for the game. Also mid season trades are allowed in the NHL. Those are the US sports that play multiple games per week averaging 3.5 games per week per team. On average an NHL player plays 18 mins per game, NBA the average is 20 mins per game. They have deeper benches and more rotations than AFL teams. The other factor you seem to be forgetting is that ALL the NBA and NHL teams travel roughly the same distance as each other. They have a conference league and divisions and so play each team within those divisions consistently and thus roughly travel the same distance. Every NBA and NHL team plays 41 home games and 41 away games. So in effect ALL TEAMS suffer from jet lag and travel fatigue this negating it's negative impacts.

So those US teams spend far less time playing and have more rotations also travel equally within their respective divisions. Which is nothing like what the AFL fixture is like.

Old mate likes to throw Geelong into the non Victorian basket to skew the numbers. Geelong travel interstate as much as every other team in Melbourne and have finished top 2 ten times since 2000.

 

[Rockford]

It’ll depend on where Freo, Sydney and Brisbane take us from here. All look capable over the next ~4 years. After that, it’s anyone’s guess. North could dominate and win 3, or the Crows could. It’s not too much of a stretch to think non-Melb teams could win 6-7 out of the next 10.

 

[Maddo11]

if you listen to dimma that 2 train station trip to marvel is pretty taxing for the mcg tenants, probably equivalent to those flight miles at minimum

Once or twice a year too, shocking

 

[doppleganger]

Except that travel fatigue and jet lag is backed by science. Many studies have shown adverse effects and poor physical performance after travel.

Majority of AFL flights are less than 90min.

Jet lag kick in when you dont change timezones?

Brisbane fly to Sydney, players are jet lagged and experience travel fatigue?

Brisbane bus down to Gold Coast, any travel fatigue?

The other factor you seem to be forgetting is that ALL the NBA and NHL teams travel roughly the same distance as each other.

Are you havin a laugh?

TWolves / Blazers (remote North West teams) travel mid 50k miles
Cavs / Pacers (central mid west) travel mid 30k miles

Geography is a thing, remote teams travel further.

They have a conference league and divisions and so play each team within those divisions consistently and thus roughly travel the same distance. Every NBA and NHL team plays 41 home games and 41 away games. So in effect ALL TEAMS suffer from jet lag and travel fatigue this negating it's negative impacts.

You are getting home and away confused with travel.

Central division travels much less than northwest / pacific.

Minnesota time zone is central, and they in same division and Portland which is Pacific time. Even within division there are time-zone changes.



AFL it is really only the WA teams that have a travel complaint, but it is against ALL other teams - including the NSW, SA, QLD and Vic teams.

 

[Dazb86]

I wonder how long the dominance needs to occur before the Victoria teams accept they are massively favoured in multiple way.

If they win 90 GF's in 100 years, would they accept it or would they just complain they did not win the other 10?

The Vics stomped home 2 grand finals while relocated interstate for two years. We are the kings of football.

 

[Simche]

Brisbane should give this year a real shake with their list ins and no reason Sydney wouldn't be better with another year into some of their young stars. Outside of them, I think Freo haven't improved enough but they may surprise me. It'll be a competitive year with teams like Melbourne and Richmond adding important players etc.

Re all the arguments around interstate clubs having to play the Grand Final at the G and falling down there, in my view it fails to take into account the significant home advantage each interstate side enjoys playing on their own deck. I've always taken the view that the home advantage through the H&A season leads to many interstate sides finishing higher than they otherwise would in an even draw and subsequently getting cooked in finals by much better sides. Some spend the entire finals series playing with the sort of home advantage that only really Geelong get (and never in finals) and get found out really badly when they are not the beneficiaries of a highly partisan crowd and a familiar deck.

I'd like to see a proper home and away season with it being extended (or the split season model), as you then tend to get a better idea of where the respective sides sit in relation to each other.

In respect of travel, the majority of the competition is based in Victoria, travel is a consequence of that. Its not a legitimate argument to complain about travel fatigue across a season in respect of sporting merit. You are either good enough to overcome the challenges of playing away or you are not, as each team has a unique set of challenges each year irrespective of where they are based including freak injuries, suspensions and other uncontrollable factors (such as playing an entire season in Queensland due to a pandemic).

 

[bzparkes]

Don't like it? Start your own league.

Great idea but unfortunately the WAFC put that to bed in the 80s by bailing out the bankrupt VFL, instead of letting it die of natural causes.

What could have been...

 

[doppleganger]

Nice one. Base your argument on a single final series and ignore the mountain of evidence over a long period of time.

???

23 H&A seasons where non-Melbourne teams dominate top2 positions.

That is a mountain of evidence to suggest that teams who retain home ground are better off in H&A.

But still the non-Melbourne teams sook.

As for sooking your old mate Eddie did that for you. AFL investigation to why non Vic sides were being successful. Changes made and Vic dominance returns. What a surprise.

Yeah put a cap on footy dept spending and stop giving the Lions an extra couple of mil salary cap and all of a sudden WC, Brisbane. Adel come back to the field.

The non-Melbourne teams sook that they cant spend more money on players and footy dept anymore.

Every time VFL House makes another dodgy Vic centric call that is focused on $$$ not fairness we will continue to point it out. And that wont stop until a better balance between teams is found. So instead of saying 'they sook all the time' how about wondering why are Vic sides being advantaged so often at the expense of non Vic sides, and especially the established SA and WA clubs.

Equalisation is primarily focused on $$ - WC and Adel have backing of entire States, so without cap on footy department spending they would dominate.

Again, the non-Melbourne teams dominate the top of the H&A ladder.

Is it Melbourne powerbroker fault that

Freo lost home PF in 2015
GWS lost home PF in 2016
Lions lost home finals in 19, 20, 21
WC lost home final in 2020
Port blew home PFs in 2020 and 2021

But the non-Melbourne teams still sook about it not being fair that Melbourne based teams are able to travel and win finals when they battle.

A Tassie team will be great, then every team can start travelling to Tassie. Not just interstate sides playing the Hawks.

Yeah Hawks can get their home games back in Melbourne and travel less.

Maybe with a 60,000 seat stadium some Melbourne big clubs will go to Geelong and get spanked playing away against the best side of the last 10 years.

Is a coach trip now considered part of travel fatigue?

The free agancy model has seriously advantaged Vic teams. The AFL can easily do an audit every 5 or 10 years and rank which teams have benefited the most v those who have not benefited much at all. The least they could do is even the ledger with a compo pick for the clubs who geographicly are excluded from being involded in the majority of FA moves.

Biggest move was Buddy walking out on the Hawks to Sydney.

Hawks also lost Birchall to the Lions, X.Ellis to WC, Murphy to the Suns.

Port picking up Lycett, Motlop, Rockliff and M.White probably the biggest winner over the journey.

But of course the non-Melbourne immediate reaction is the sook.

 

[Saab NLAW]

The irony of a Sydney fan complaining about the competition not being fair is bloody funny.

Just consider the mental gymnastics for them to come to this conclusion and actually believe it's true.

Hilarious

 

[Kwickhatch]

Majority of AFL flights are less than 90min.

Jet lag kick in when you dont change timezones?

Brisbane fly to Sydney, players are jet lagged and experience travel fatigue?

Brisbane bus down to Gold Coast, any travel fatigue?


Are you havin a laugh?

TWolves / Blazers (remote North West teams) travel mid 50k miles
Cavs / Pacers (central mid west) travel mid 30k miles

Geography is a thing, remote teams travel further.


You are getting home and away confused with travel.

Central division travels much less than northwest / pacific.

Minnesota time zone is central, and they in same division and Portland which is Pacific time. Even within division there are time-zone changes.

View attachment 1578965

AFL it is really only the WA teams that have a travel complaint, but it is against ALL other teams - including the NSW, SA, QLD and Vic teams.

So you just dismiss everything else I pointed out... Nice.
Yes remote teams exist hence I said roughly travel the same. It's impossible to have every team travel exactly the same distance and you know that. I already said 'roughly'.
Secondly I am not confusing anything, I have looked up the travel averages and yes some do travel more but most travel similar distances compared to the huge discrepancy between AFL teams. There are different conferences and divisions to minimise travel distances and I said fatigue and jet lag, not jet lag exclusively. Also, did you not read about the how deep their teams and benches are? Being able to rotate and rest players is the best way to mitigate adverse effects of travel fatigue. I guess you are having laugh? Or you do not understand that on average non Vic teams travel far more than melb teams
The reality is the Melbourne clubs travel far less, you know it. You know it's an advantage.
But hey ignore science and claim you know better. I look forward to reading your peer reviewed scientific article disproving the travel fatigue

 

[Sky]

The irony of a Sydney fan complaining about the competition not being fair is bloody funny.

Just consider the mental gymnastics for them to come to this conclusion and actually believe it's true.

Hilarious

Yep it’s rather embarrassing they lost the grand final to us with all their academy concessions.

 

[doppleganger]

So you just dismiss everything else I pointed out nice l. Yes remote teams exist hence I said roughly travel the same.

LoL

Yeah "backed by Science".

Do you think players are jet lagged on a 60-120 min flight with no major time zone change?

It's impossible to have every team travel exactly the same distance and you know that.

I am unsure if you know that.

You went down the US rabbit hole trying to claim that travel was fair and equal, when it is anything but.

Secondly I am not confusing anything, I have looked up the travel averages and yes some do travel more but most travel similar distances compared to the huge discrepancy between AFL teams. I guess you are having laugh or just stupid?

A ~ 20,000 mile (32,000kms) discrepancy is found in NBA teams.

The Lions thmesleves tend to travel around 35,000 kms in a season.

Not much more than the NBA discrepancy.

The AFL discrepancy (for all expect the WA teams) is much less than the NBA.

And again, if travel is a disadvantage where is the correlation in finishing positions?

The WA teams should always be bottom dwellers if travel was a disadvantage.

There are different conferences and divisions and they I said fatigue and jet lag, not jet lag exclusively.

Yeah, you are inconsistent as jet lag isnt a factor for majority of trips.

Fatigue, what is worse...time concetrating whilst driving or spent sitting on a plane snoozing?

The reality is the Melbourne clubs travel far less, you know it. You know it's an advantage.

Geography, no shit.

The bigger impact is AFL enforced Melbourne Ground Rationalisation, when only the Melbourne clubs lost home ground advantage.

Lions used to benefit by having Melbourne play "home" games at the GABBA.

H&A ladder shows that the non-Melbourne teams dominate the top2 positions on the ladder...unsurprising as they are the ones that retained their home advantage, and had away disadvantage reduce.

 

[Demon13304]

The Vics stomped home 2 grand finals while relocated interstate for two years. We are the kings of football.

Lol yeah, the last 3 premiers literally haven't played a single home final (albeit Geelong still got to play in Victoria - but they finished first anyway) but yeah of course it's Victoria's fault that Brisbane and Port Adelaide completely shit the bed in their home finals.

I don't even want it, I'm so sick of other victorian clubs winning but I have to give respect when I see well run clubs

 

[Giant Pete]

Who's the best free agent we've signed? Scott Selwood or Dahlhaus are probably the two biggest we've snared.

Lol… JC a restricted free agent.

 

[Sky]

Lol… JC a restricted free agent.

Doesn’t count when we paid heavy for him. Dangerfield is a better shout but we paid for him too. ‘Free agent’ lol.

 

[STPer18]

Lol… JC a restricted free agent.

He was the same as any other OOC player in that we had to trade for him. The list of players we've gained through actual free agency is small and wholly underwhelming contrary to what people seem to think. Jared Rivers, Scott Selwood, Luke Dahlhaus and Isaac Smith are our lot. The Smith recruitment was laughed at by all and sundry until people remembered he's a gun, but none of these players were wanted by their previous clubs.

The point I was making is that our free agency haul is nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Kwickhatch]

LoL

Yeah "backed by Science".

Do you think players are jet lagged on a 60-120 min flight with no major time zone change?

I am unsure if you know that.

You went down the US rabbit hole trying to claim that travel was fair and equal, when it is anything but.

A ~ 20,000 mile (32,000kms) discrepancy is found in NBA teams.

The Lions thmesleves tend to travel around 35,000 kms in a season.

Not much more than the NBA discrepancy.

The AFL discrepancy (for all expect the WA teams) is much less than the NBA.

And again, if travel is a disadvantage where is the correlation in finishing positions?

The WA teams should always be bottom dwellers if travel was a disadvantage.

Yeah, you are inconsistent as jet lag isnt a factor for majority of trips.

Fatigue, what is worse...time concetrating whilst driving or spent sitting on a plane snoozing?


Geography, no s**t.

The bigger impact is AFL enforced Melbourne Ground Rationalisation, when only the Melbourne clubs lost home ground advantage.

Lions used to benefit by having Melbourne play "home" games at the GABBA.

H&A ladder shows that the non-Melbourne teams dominate the top2 positions on the ladder...unsurprising as they are the ones that retained their home advantage, and had away disadvantage reduce.

Actually you went down the US sports thing. Go back. You said US teams travel regularly and so it's not an issue. Again science says otherwise but please you know so much show me. Show me all your peer reviewed articles stating that travel fatigue doesn't exist.
Yes in relation to NBA with how many teams and how many players per team? Now does the discrepancy seem comparable? Or again are you only looking at one aspect? I stated very early on that comparing US teams and their travel schedules is not a fair comparison and listed a bunch of reasons why and yet you still didn't address any of them except that Brisbane might travel comparably. When everyone knows the NBA and NHL travel far more than the AFL teams DUH! there are how many teams? 30 teams in the NBA and 32 teams in the NHL. Compared to 18 Comparable only a fraction of the teams suffer from more travel compared to the non Vic teams who almost always bare the brunt of travel compared to Vic teams who find it a hassle to drive down the highway. How many of those teams are all located within a state? Hmmmm? How many share a stadium? Do they rotate where the grand final is played based on who had a better season or is it always in once place? Curious...

 

[Kwickhatch]

???

23 H&A seasons where non-Melbourne teams dominate top2 positions.

That is a mountain of evidence to suggest that teams who retain home ground are better off in H&A.

But still the non-Melbourne teams sook.

Yeah put a cap on footy dept spending and stop giving the Lions an extra couple of mil salary cap and all of a sudden WC, Brisbane. Adel come back to the field.

The non-Melbourne teams sook that they cant spend more money on players and footy dept anymore.

Equalisation is primarily focused on $$ - WC and Adel have backing of entire States, so without cap on footy department spending they would dominate.

Again, the non-Melbourne teams dominate the top of the H&A ladder.

Is it Melbourne powerbroker fault that

Freo lost home PF in 2015
GWS lost home PF in 2016
Lions lost home finals in 19, 20, 21
WC lost home final in 2020
Port blew home PFs in 2020 and 2021

But the non-Melbourne teams still sook about it not being fair that Melbourne based teams are able to travel and win finals when they battle.

Yeah Hawks can get their home games back in Melbourne and travel less.

Is a coach trip now considered part of travel fatigue?

Biggest move was Buddy walking out on the Hawks to Sydney.

Hawks also lost Birchall to the Lions, X.Ellis to WC, Murphy to the Suns.

Port picking up Lycett, Motlop, Rockliff and M.White probably the biggest winner over the journey.

But of course the non-Melbourne immediate reaction is the sook.

Yup because the Vic's never sook haha

 

[Rich01]

The AFL needs other states other than Vic producing their fair share of quality players.

Until the states focus on this, they will never have a fair playing field, relying on so much vic talent to fill their playing list.