Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Vdubs]

Wrong. I don't believe in anything.

You believe in Atheism.

 

[Vdubs]

Not sure I understand what you're saying here, but in answer to your final question at least, nothing gives me more pleasure than stimulating discussion. Locking intellectual horns is one of the greatest satisfactions in life.

Of course doubt lingers. I said as much in the post you're replying to here. Science never pretends to have all the answers. Your mistake is to assume that's proof of the existence of god.

Wrong. The fact that doubt does exist, I'd rather be on the right side of God, given it has positively affected life anyway, and that it makes sense. I have not said that proves God is real, but the part that does convince me, ie changed lives after conversion, means nothing to atheists.

 

[western royboy]

I ask you devout atheists again, prove the never existence of God. For the duration of your lives, and all your family trees, there has been knowledge of God; He predates everyone you can think of, so it's up to you to disprove Him, without asking a believer any questions.

Only through indoctrination - no other way in my family, unlike yourself no one in my family has gone looking and found it, rather the opposite we were born into it, had it rammed down our throats and in my case, researched it and came to the fairly logical conclusion that it us all fantasy

 

[liz]

You believe in Atheism.

You’ve drifted onto some very dodgy epistemological ground.

How are you going proving the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn’t exist?

 

[Total Power]

You believe in Atheism.

Your lack of knowledge is showing. Plenty of religions are atheistic. Those religions focus on love and compassion to reduce human suffering, unconditionally. Without the need for the heavenly cookie. Which is what Jesus said too (and you don't need to follow me, feed the poor and help others)...before that charlatan fraud Paul came along.

Atheism is a lack of belief in deity. Atheists can believe in many things but not deity. Creationism, ID and all kinds of God of gaps is literally silly. I consider myself a strong atheist when it comes to your God however i am not an atheist otherwise. Your god is just silly and childish. This was prophecised in many eastern religions (that the appearance of personal god will set you back spiritually)

Just like C.S Lewis suggesting that God is needed to be good, so how come people been good before Christianity? How come i am good?

If the only thing keeping you from committing atrocities or raping others is fear of your own punishment then you were never a good person to begin with.

I think this question betrays a very very childish view of morality. No one had told me what was good or bad. No one has told you the million things written in the Bible is bad. You figured it out yourself and by doing so, you have been disobedient of god (and millions of other christians). You simply cannot pick and choose.

 

[Total Power]

When you were born, people knew about God, same with your whole family tree. That you have "outgrown that tradition" is your choice, not based on evidence. You have faith in that decision because it works for you now.

Judging by your evidence of god (the awesome 10 points), i really wouldn't wanna be believing in anything you say about evidence (even personal ones).

When i was a Christian I was told to read Job when I was "struggling". I didn't even finish it. It was disgusting. Being used as a pawn by a loving god is what...an honour? Ffs.

and let’s not even begin to consider the perspective of the family members killed off in a bet between god and the devil. It’s one thing to be like “if you don’t do this, I’ll kill you.” But to also threaten family and children... that’s a new level of holy hostage taking.

Moral lessons learned from this? Hey look what God did to Job, a righteous man, just imagine how much he COULD **** you up if he wanted. Now, learn from this you vile sinner!

As i said, there may or may not be a God, but Bible??!!? nope..you are in the same boat as us, without realising it. I keep saying it, look into Buddhism, has all the good elements of Christianity minus all the crapshoot that you get with it.

 

[Total Power]

Does your dog, or any pet think about the meaning of life?

I learnt many things from my dog. One thing is living in the present. When i first picked up a book from Eckhart Tolle, i realised most of my problems were imaginary.

Being present just means clearing your mind of thoughts of the past and thoughts of the future. Thoughts of the past and thoughts of the future are where a lot of our suffering comes from. Focusing on the present moment (on the "now") is a good step towards achieving a sense of peace.

Of course it's totally possible to contemplate on things you've already experienced or things you believe you will experience and have it not be a negative thing. But most people don't operate that way. Most thoughts about the past or the future happen without intention.

"We suffer more in imagination than in reality.” — Seneca

For me, if I'm not truly engulfed in something, my brain is constantly thinking about what I coulda / shoulda / woulda done or said 3 days ago, 6 months ago, 25 years ago. From the most mundane stuff to life-changing decisions

If it's not that, then it's stressing about what might happen, could happen, will happen with all kinds of scenarios going on in my head.

I got rid of my anxiety attacks the moments i applied 'being in the present' principle after reading Tolle's book, in my life. The suffering just went away and i am at peace with myself and my surroundings. In other words i am truly happy.

This is what meditation is all about. Dogs are blessed this way, while humans suffer, mostly from imaginary stress.

This where the Eastern religions come in, maybe you can give it a go. I fear no judgement from any deity, which simply doesn't exist, hence nothing to be ashamed about.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You believe in Atheism.

I don’t. I don’t believe in anything. I have rid my life, as much as possible, of being directed in any way by belief.

I have considered the arguments for the existence of god and I have adjudged them logically insufficient.

Calling that a “belief” is playing fast and loose with the meaning of the word, and yet another indication of how religious people have worked long and hard to equate belief with fact ever since the Enlightenment, with increasing frequency, blew every one of their explanations for the origins of the world out of the water.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Wrong. The fact that doubt does exist, I'd rather be on the right side of God, given it has positively affected life anyway, and that it makes sense. I have not said that proves God is real, but the part that does convince me, ie changed lives after conversion, means nothing to atheists.

It doesn’t make sense to just as many people as it does make sense to.

Likewise religion’s many, many benefits need to be weighed against its many, many evils.

Look at the Australian Catholic Church, just this week again trying to use employment law legal chicanery to try to evade its financial responsibility for victims of its hierarchy’s rampant sexual abuse.

Whatever welcome contrition it grudgingly expressed in the face of the overwhelming catalogue of abuse from the Royal Commission, is instantly rendered hollow the moment they’re asked to put money on the table by way of compensation.

And it’s NOT just the Catholic Church. Read Anne Manne’s horrifying recent book on the abuse by the Anglican Diocese in Newcastle, and you realise the church has a stripe of evil in it right across the spectrum.

So, sorry, I don’t think religion and Christianity in particular are evil to the core, but I am incapable of being swayed by your arguments about its inherent goodness, thanks to the hard reality we all now know about.

 

[carltonchelsea]

A- Theism
A refers to without, like asexual, amoral,
So you call yourself antitheist.
Not many here do, but possibly many would agree with you for their own personaL reasons
Btw, they are far from my 10 reasons, but I was trying to get you and colleagues to show me the indisputable evidence that God cannot exist, that there can be no Creator God, knowing this is impossible, but "we are getting closer all the time".
It should not be put on me what evidence I need to be convinced-

Yeah, I know what ahhh theism is.
There isn’t an argument for god that is impressive.
Some think the fine tuning argument is the closest, but again my counter argument is why insert Yahweh into the conclusion, why insert anything that complicates the original question even more.
Nature is capable of complexity, but rarely takes complex routes to achieve its goals.
Anyhoo

 

[Roylion]

The onus is not on Christians to disprove anything, it's on you atheists with your faith to prove that there absolutely is no God.

This is nothing more that a fallacious shifting of the burden of proof.

Christians (and indeed any follower of any religion) are making assertions to truth for which they offer no supporting evidence.

The burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.

The opponent of the claim made - in this case that there is a 'god' has no such burden of proof until evidence is presented for the claim. I'm yet to see any evidence provided for this existence of 'god'.

Vdubs is now pushing this tactic that it is on atheists to prove there is absolutely no god because his own claim is unfalsifiable - derived as it is purely on faith. Non-theists inability to prove the claim that there is a god is wrong, plants the idea that the original claim that there is actually a god, has some sort of merit.

This of course means that Vdubs doesn't actually ever have to present any evidence of his own, despite frequent (unanswered) requests to do so. He has none. So he's now effectively saying that the idea there must be a god must be accepted because it cannot be disproven. That means of course any idea no matter how fanciful or improbable must be accepted because it cannot be disproven.

Will Vdubs accept that the Flying Spaghetti Monster truly exists because it can't be proved that is doesn't?

Without supporting evidence to support, there is no reason to accept any idea, even if there is no contrary evidence. While an unfalsifiable claim - such as the existance of a god can be proven neither right nor wrong, it is reasonable to dismiss the claim there is a god as non-factual if it lacks logical supporting evidence.

That's certainly what I've done. I can't prove there isn't a god but I can certainly dismiss the claim there is a god as non factual and live my life accordingly. I can also continue to question claims that there is a god when they are claimed as truth and no supporting evidence for that claim to truth is offered.

An easy to follow explanation of what 'burden of proof' actually is for Vdubs and his ilk is below.

 

[Vdubs]

This is nothing more that a fallacious shifting of the burden of proof.

Christians (and indeed any follower of any religion) are making assertions to truth for which they offer no supporting evidence.

The burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.

The opponent of the claim made - in this case that there is a 'god' has no such burden of proof until evidence is presented for the claim. I'm yet to see any evidence provided for this existence of 'god'.

Vdubs is now pushing this tactic that it is on atheists to prove there is absolutely no god because his own claim is unfalsifiable - derived as it is purely on faith. Non-theists inability to prove the claim that there is a god is wrong, plants the idea that the original claim that there is actually a god, has some sort of merit.

This of course means that Vdubs doesn't actually ever have to present any evidence of his own, despite frequent (unanswered) requests to do so. He has none. So he's now effectively saying that the idea there must be a god must be accepted because it cannot be disproven. That means of course any idea no matter how fanciful or improbable must be accepted because it cannot be disproven.

Will Vdubs accept that the Flying Spaghetti Monster truly exists because it can't be proved that is doesn't?

Without supporting evidence to support, there is no reason to accept any idea, even if there is no contrary evidence. While an unfalsifiable claim - such as the existance of a god can be proven neither right nor wrong, it is reasonable to dismiss the claim there is a god as non-factual if it lacks logical supporting evidence.

That's certainly what I've done. I can't prove there isn't a god but I can certainly dismiss the claim there is a god as non factual and live my life accordingly. I can also continue to question claims that there is a god when they are claimed as truth and no supporting evidence for that claim to truth is offered.

An easy to follow explanation of what 'burden of proof' actually is for Vdubs and his ilk is below.

Ask an atheist is this thread.
We're done with asking Christians.
You guys prove there is no God.
God has been part of culture and civilisation way longer than your intellect can fathom, even if by faith alone.
Prove it is false, fallacious, non-existent, impossible.
Christians who have relationship with God know that God is real- you can not accept this

 

[Roylion]

We're done with asking Christians.

Nonetheless you keep making claims to truth in this very same thread.

You guys prove there is no God.

Once again.

There is no need to prove there is no 'God'. The burden of proof does not lie with me.

The claim of the existence of God is an unfalsifiable claim - it can be proven neither right nor wrong. But as theists came up with the claim of 'god' in the first place, it is reasonable to dismiss the claim there is a god, as non-factual. The claim lacks supporting evidence.

God has been part of culture and civilisation way longer than your intellect can fathom, even if by faith alone.

So what. That does not prove that your claim that 'God exists' is true. Your statement is completely irrelevant.

Prove it is false, fallacious, non-existent, impossible.

There is no need to prove there is no 'God'.

The claim of the existence of God is an unfalsifiable claim - it can be proven neither right nor wrong. But as theists continue to assert that 'God' exists and is real (and you continue to do this in the thread that is now titled 'Ask an Atheist' it is reasonable to dismiss the claim there is a god, as non-factual. The claim lacks supporting evidence.

This answers your question about why atheists and agnostics do not accept your claim that 'God exists'.

Christians who have relationship with God know that God is real- you can not accept this

I see no reason to accept your claim that 'God' is real. And you haven't provided any objective evidence to suggest that I should accept your claim. Feel free to do so.

Until you do, I can certainly dismiss your claim there is a god as non factual and live my life accordingly. I also see no reason to accept that Jesus is divine.

I'm merely rejecting your claim to truth as there is no reason to accept your claim to truth, given your complete failure to provide any objective evidence for your claim.

I can't prove there isn't a god, but neither do I have to. I can't prove that Zeus, Odin, Ra or a myriad of other deities don't exist either, but neither do I have to disprove them. I simply ignore them, whether they exist or not. They have no meaning or presence in my life. I have no doubt you reject the existence of other purported deities, other than your version of 'god'. Why is that?

I can also continue to question claims made by you and others that there is a god when they are claimed as truth and no supporting objective evidence for that claim to truth is offered.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Ask an atheist is this thread.
We're done with asking Christians.
You guys prove there is no God.
God has been part of culture and civilisation way longer than your intellect can fathom, even if by faith alone.
Prove it is false, fallacious, non-existent, impossible.
Christians who have relationship with God know that God is real- you can not accept this

I get the distinct impression you didn't watch the video Roylion linked in post # 1,436.

 

[Total Power]

Ask an atheist is this thread.
We're done with asking Christians.
You guys prove there is no God.
God has been part of culture and civilisation way longer than your intellect can fathom, even if by faith alone.
Prove it is false, fallacious, non-existent, impossible.
Christians who have relationship with God know that God is real- you can not accept this

Evolution is one thing where you can definitely see how there's no design in the environment. I gave you the example of a woman giving birth before. For chimps, this is perfect but for us humans the birth canal is too small for the human head. Hence mortality during birth was record high before C-section was invented. That's just one. Humans are at a disadvantage in many other places too.

People believed in all sorts of things due to lack of knowledge. Remember the days when earthquake and thunders were acts of god? even today if you look at the insurance company papers it's called 'act of god' legally even. This has no bearing on the truth. People will still continue to believe despite no proof existing.

Secondly the idea of personal god is relatively new. Christianity only been existing for 2,000 years. Before that no concept of personal god existed. YWH was not a personal god either. So even if God existed no one believed in your kind of god for vast majority of human existence. In eastern religions we are all a part of god, which makes a lot more sense than a jealous attention seeking, controlling and manipulating god. Jesus also says the same thing 'the kingdom of god is within you'.

Then came Paul and the rest is history.

 

[Roylion]

I get the distinct impression you didn't watch the video Roylion linked in post # 1,436.

It explains the burden of proof well and links it well to the myriad of supernatural existence claims.

 

[Vdubs]

I get the distinct impression you didn't watch the video Roylion linked in post # 1,436.

Incorrect, watched all of it.
I have not claimed anything more than what you know- i have faith in God and that I believe He sent us Christ, His son as a human, to help mankind have a relationship with Him.
Open admission of faith, thereby no need to prove anything.
You guys claim God is not real, that Jesus, if He existed, did not rise from being dead.
As I ask, you definitively prove that did not occur.
Believers worldwide are waiting anxiously.

 

[liz]

Incorrect, watched all of it.

So what about it do you particularly disagree with?

 

[Vdubs]

So what about it so you particularly disagree with?

Read above.
Very well written.
Christianity is not provable by science, nor is belief in God.
Believers do not need proof.
That you folk can be so adamantly convinced it is all impossible and bunkum, without proof, is the question believers have.

This is not a court of law btw.

 

[Boston tiger]

Einstein once said and let me paraphrase as my memory is fading
“ the evidence of God is nowhere and everywhere …when one leads with their soul then the evidence becomes overwhelming. “

I think it was Einstein.

 

[liz]

Read above.
Very well written.
Christianity is not provable by science, nor is belief in God.
Believers do not need proof.
That you folk can be so adamantly convinced it is all impossible and bunkum, without proof, is the question believers have.

This is not a court of law btw.

So you (believers) don’t need any proof to believe, but non-believers should require proof not to believe?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Incorrect, watched all of it.
I have not claimed anything more than what you know- i have faith in God and that I believe He sent us Christ, His son as a human, to help mankind have a relationship with Him.
Open admission of faith, thereby no need to prove anything.
You guys claim God is not real, that Jesus, if He existed, did not rise from being dead.
As I ask, you definitively prove that did not occur.
Believers worldwide are waiting anxiously.

Your last two paragraphs show me that if you did watch it, you either didn’t understand, or ignored, what it said.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Read above.
Very well written.
Christianity is not provable by science, nor is belief in God.
Believers do not need proof.
That you folk can be so adamantly convinced it is all impossible and bunkum, without proof, is the question believers have.

This is not a court of law btw.

Again you fall back on the “I can’t explain it, but it works for me” explanation.

And again, I stress I have no argument whatsoever with that approach. None whatsoever.

There is, however, the awful fact that Christianity is a proselytising religion, and with awful regularity throughout its history, that proselytising has been part and parcel of horrific bloodshed, abuse, dispossession and deprivation.

Sorry, just don’t buy it.

 

[Roylion]

Incorrect, watched all of it.

Then you will see clearly that the burden of proof for your claims is on you.

I have not claimed anything more than what you know- i have faith in God and that I believe He sent us Christ, His son as a human, to help mankind have a relationship with Him.

And there is no evidence that exists that supports your belief.

Open admission of faith, thereby no need to prove anything.

Until you can provide objective evidence in support of your faith based beliefs, I can certainly dismiss your claim that there is a god as non factual and accordingly live my life with the concept of 'god' having no meaning or presence in my life. I also see no reason to accept that Jesus is divine or that he was resurrected from the dead.

You guys claim God is not real, that Jesus, if He existed, did not rise from being dead.

There is absolutely no robust evidence that supports the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. There is no reason to believe it is true.

As I ask, you definitively prove that did not occur.

Why does that need to be done? The burden of proof is on you.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Ask an atheist is this thread.
We're done with asking Christians.
You guys prove there is no God.
God has been part of culture and civilisation way longer than your intellect can fathom, even if by faith alone.
Prove it is false, fallacious, non-existent, impossible.
Christians who have relationship with God know that God is real- you can not accept this

Ok, I will, “hey cc”, “yes cc”, “is there a god?”, “I see no evidence of any gods, why would I venture that the claims to yahwehs existence have any more veracity than Zeus, Odin, Isis, Thor etc etc.?”
“Fair enough cc, how’s your rainbow coloured invisible garage dragon going?”.
“Thanks for asking cc, he’s got a bit of a flu or covid at the moment and not eating his imaginary UV krill burgers, but we expect him to make a full recovery soon”.
“Cool cc, I don’t believe you”.