Autopsy Autopsy/Positives - Fremantle vs Carlton

[Arcassius]

I wonder if Pav will almost be a liability coming back - we have so much toe defensively with Mayne, Ballas, Walters hunting in packs. Pav adds our goal kicking prowess, but like Sandi up forward, I'm not sure if he'll be a defensive liability compared to the quicker kids.

 

[Freoval]

Totally disagree Arcassius. Pav not only provides a forward focus, but also frees up players like Mayne when he (Pav) is double-teamed. It is too easy to forget that Pav single-handedly outscored Weagles in the derby last year, and it really annoys me that supporters disregard what he has done for Freo. He almost won the Coleman last year for goodness sake (not that he aspires to personal awards). He can only enhance our team's success. How on earth could anyone compare him to a newby like Taberner or Hannath, for example. With Mayne, Ballas and Son Son on fire, adding Pav is going to give us an unbelievable edge. Go Freo!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

[mightydockers]

I dunno, I reckon he needs to get a bit smarter about it. I know it's only performative, but he seems to get done for a couple of them every game.

The calls are rough but each one I knew the umpire would call HTB - he just doesn't quite disguise it as well as others yet. great game by subes though... he gave us so much drive going forward with his run and penetrating kick. would love to see his metres gained from that game

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Totally disagree Arcassius. Pav not only provides a forward focus, but also frees up players like Mayne when he (Pav) is double-teamed. It is too easy to forget that Pav single-handedly outscored Weagles in the derby last year, and it really annoys me that supporters disregard what he has done for Freo. He almost won the Coleman last year for goodness sake (not that he aspires to personal awards). He can only enhance our team's success. How on earth could anyone compare him to a newby like Taberner or Hannath, for example. With Mayne, Ballas and Son Son on fire, adding Pav is going to give us an unbelievable edge. Go Freo!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

To be fair to Arcassius, that was last year and not this year. Teams may not need to double team him as much as when he had played he hasn't looked as dangerous. If he gets back to his best form then yes he will destroy oppositions off his own boot e.g. the eagles last season. He needs to get a few games under his belt before the finals and hopefully the last 4 games of the season will be enough for him to get his great form back.

 

[StingBitten]

I agree with this however I find that this mostly happens when he comes on as a sub. He does amazing things as sub and has a huge impact on the game. Then I hope that he will play a full game the following week so that he can do amazing things for four quarters, except I've found that I've been a bit disappointed in most of his full games and more impressed with his sub games.

Believe that's why he's called Subcliffe.

When Morabito returns Suban might have to go back to Sub-in (this scenario means we're spoilt for choice!)

 

[dthom]

I wonder if Pav will almost be a liability coming back - we have so much toe defensively with Mayne, Ballas, Walters hunting in packs. Pav adds our goal kicking prowess, but like Sandi up forward, I'm not sure if he'll be a defensive liability compared to the quicker kids.

I'm sorry but that is a Illogical argument. Here's why:
1) those excellent pressure players you mentioned will still be in the team.
2) Pavlich attracts a lot of defenders. They have to focus on what he is doing rather than rebounding.
3) None of the younger kids are particularly strong in the pressure sense yet.
4) Our other forwards will be able to move a bit further up the ground knowing Pav will be available up forward when the quick rebound from our fowardline happens.
5) Pav is a stronger mark than anyone in our forward line currently and is the least likely to be out-marked. Hence the ball will rarely be rebounded quickly.

 

[Clems Knee]

I'm sorry but that is a Illogical argument. Here's why:
1) those excellent pressure players you mentioned will still be in the team.
2) Pavlich attracts a lot of defenders. They have to focus on what he is doing rather than rebounding.
3) None of the younger kids are particularly strong in the pressure sense yet.
4) Our other forwards will be able to move a bit further up the ground knowing Pav will be available up forward when the quick rebound from our fowardline happens.
5) Pav is a stronger mark than anyone in our forward line currently and is the least likely to be out-marked. Hence the ball will rarely be rebounded quickly.

Agree with all this. There is no way Harry Taylor will have as big an impact the next time we play Geelong, with Pav back in the side.

 

[The Anchorite]

Agree with all this. There is no way Harry Taylor will have as big an impact the next time we play Geelong, with Pav back in the side.

Yep, forward pressure is great but its no substitute for taking marks and kicking goals.

 

[yakamoto]

We can probably get away with Pav in the forward line as far as forward pressure goes. Pav plus Sandi on the other hand...........

 

[StingBitten]

Something BT said during the game - RTB was 47-0 (48 after that) for winning at Etihad when in front at 3/4 time.

Was wondering what his record was all-round? This year we've had a lot of close encounters, we're we've let up in the 3rd to either just be in front or behind at 3/4 time and then pull back to win by a comfortable margin. Examples this year include Carlton, the Eagles (2nd derby), Collingwood, Adelaide (both), and a few others that I can't think of. We even surged in the final quarter against Sydney.

Seems like a handy skill to have in a GF situation.

 

[dthom]

Agree with all this. There is no way Harry Taylor will have as big an impact the next time we play Geelong, with Pav back in the side.

Add the fact that Pavlich tends to like playing against Geelong and it should be quite different indeed...

 

[pokerspiv]

Were we in front at 3/4 when we lost to Essendon?

 

[Arcassius]

Emphatic response to an open ended query on DEFENSE wasn't it

I wasn't ever querying the impact he has offensively - it's self evident that he will draw extra defenders, and provide marking prowess so his offensive contribution to the team will result in us being a several goal better team by virtue of his inclusion. I've said as much repeatedly in the past, and to Freoval - I have the utmost respect for Pavlich, but trotting out all the good he's done in the past is irrelevant to answering my question. Take off the Pavlich coloured glasses before you turn into a raving loon hanging onto past glories like an Eagles supporter

His offensive contribution *IS* self evident to the extent that it didn't even warrant discussion. But that wasn't my question - my question was whether Pavlich in our forward line weakens us DEFENSIVELY. I was curious to see what others thought about how it would change the mix.

I'm sorry but that is a Illogical argument. Here's why:
1) those excellent pressure players you mentioned will still be in the team.
2) Pavlich attracts a lot of defenders. They have to focus on what he is doing rather than rebounding.
3) None of the younger kids are particularly strong in the pressure sense yet.
4) Our other forwards will be able to move a bit further up the ground knowing Pav will be available up forward when the quick rebound from our fowardline happens.
5) Pav is a stronger mark than anyone in our forward line currently and is the least likely to be out-marked. Hence the ball will rarely be rebounded quickly.

1) fair call
2) debatable - Pav's defenders won't be defending him tightly when they have the ball - they'll be looking to run off him in the same way they will run off Sandi
3) fair call
4) quick rebound - a bit contradictory to me. When we've pushed right up defensively we've often kicked to space (or over the heads of) the faster running players like Ballas and Walters to capitalise on. In your scenario are you suggesting that because he's a good contested mark then as we're all streaming forward we leave him parked forward and should kick to the ONE guy leading out of the forward 50 who has a close checking defender right up his clacker on the goal side? Pav comes into his own when defenders are set up or setting up, he draws 2 and either takes a contested mark on the lead or brings the smalls into it, not in the quick rebound scenario imo.
5) True, that he is a stronger mark - but he is also slower, so saying the ball will be rebounded less quickly assumes that he is as quick at intercept marking as he is at marking off the lead - and that is the bit I debate. It's not like opposition defenders stand next to Pavlich so that their running backs can kick to a contest with him in it. Which makes your point illogical

 

[valkorum]

Were we in front at 3/4 when we lost to Essendon?

That was at Subi not Etihad

 

[Sabtaj]

I wonder if Pav will almost be a liability coming back - we have so much toe defensively with Mayne, Ballas, Walters hunting in packs. Pav adds our goal kicking prowess, but like Sandi up forward, I'm not sure if he'll be a defensive liability compared to the quicker kids.

I think your'e not taking into account Pav has been out for three weeks suspended not in injured and would have been going hard on the track so even though his match fitness might be down a bit his overall fitness would be pretty high. Will be the difference when finals come around along with Macca.

 

[StingBitten]

Don't know what you're all talking about Pav's going to kick 10 against GWS this Sunday...

 

[dthom]

Emphatic response to an open ended query on DEFENSE wasn't it

I wasn't ever querying the impact he has offensively - it's self evident that he will draw extra defenders, and provide marking prowess so his offensive contribution to the team will result in us being a several goal better team by virtue of his inclusion. I've said as much repeatedly in the past, and to Freoval - I have the utmost respect for Pavlich, but trotting out all the good he's done in the past is irrelevant to answering my question. Take off the Pavlich coloured glasses before you turn into a raving loon hanging onto past glories like an Eagles supporter

His offensive contribution *IS* self evident to the extent that it didn't even warrant discussion. But that wasn't my question - my question was whether Pavlich in our forward line weakens us DEFENSIVELY. I was curious to see what others thought about how it would change the mix.




1) fair call
2) debatable - Pav's defenders won't be defending him tightly when they have the ball - they'll be looking to run off him in the same way they will run off Sandi
3) fair call
4) quick rebound - a bit contradictory to me. When we've pushed right up defensively we've often kicked to space (or over the heads of) the faster running players like Ballas and Walters to capitalise on. In your scenario are you suggesting that because he's a good contested mark then as we're all streaming forward we leave him parked forward and should kick to the ONE guy leading out of the forward 50 who has a close checking defender right up his clacker on the goal side? Pav comes into his own when defenders are set up or setting up, he draws 2 and either takes a contested mark on the lead or brings the smalls into it, not in the quick rebound scenario imo.
5) True, that he is a stronger mark - but he is also slower, so saying the ball will be rebounded less quickly assumes that he is as quick at intercept marking as he is at marking off the lead - and that is the bit I debate. It's not like opposition defenders stand next to Pavlich so that their running backs can kick to a contest with him in it. Which makes your point illogical

Your last point misses my point completely but whatever... and as for the fourth one, well you missed the point there as well. Yes, we do quite often run back on to the ball once we've turned it over, and it occasionally works. But more often than not we don't have any target who can present up to the ball or be the next target in the chain so we are forced to buy time by chipping it sideways... or kick to an uneven contest (see Geelong).

 

[Arcassius]

Your last point misses my point completely but whatever... and as for the fourth one, well you missed the point there as well. Yes, we do quite often run back on to the ball once we've turned it over, and it occasionally works. But more often than not we don't have any target who can present up to the ball or be the next target in the chain so we are forced to buy time by chipping it sideways... or kick to an uneven contest (see Geelong).

so why not explain your point, so that we can discuss it? 'you missed it completely' is about as constructive as the good old 'if you dont know what you've done i'm not telling you' ... i'm after objective discussion here

for what it's worth you're still arguing on the offensive benefits of having Pav in the team which as I mentioned wasn't what I was querying. i appreciate you're replying to my reply - but just saying - it's ironic to suggest i miss your point when your initial response missed mine

We can probably get away with Pav in the forward line as far as forward pressure goes. Pav plus Sandi on the other hand...........

balance of probabilities isn't it.

+Pav
improved contested marking, genuine tall, guaranteed to improve our structure attacking and goals - but less manic pressure.
+Sandi
improved clearances (first use) at stoppages (assuming he doesnt get sharked - another topic for discussion), get out target from defense, contested marking up forward, defensive liability.

 

[greatgatsby]

We can probably get away with Pav in the forward line as far as forward pressure goes. Pav plus Sandi on the other hand...........

... should mean no defensive 50 marks and lots of ground balls for Walters, Ballas and Mayne.

 

[Arcassius]

... should mean no defensive 50 marks and lots of ground balls for Walters, Ballas and Mayne.

defensive 50 for the opposition? so offensively for us? or defensive 50 for us - so Sandi parked in our defense or 1 kick out from defense on the wing? i presume you mean the former

 

[greatgatsby]

defensive 50 for the opposition? so offensively for us? or defensive 50 for us - so Sandi parked in our defense or 1 kick out from defense on the wing? i presume you mean the former

Their defensive 50

 

[Arcassius]

Their defensive 50

So when we're attacking and kicking to a contest - Sandi marking or bringing the ball to ground to our smalls Well you're right - he does bring that to our offense.

 

[greatgatsby]

So when we're attacking and kicking to a contest - Sandi marking or bringing the ball to ground to our smalls Well you're right - he does bring that to our offense.

Yep - didn't think that concept would be contentious

 

[Arcassius]

Yep - didn't think that concept would be contentious

Not contentious so much as the context was amusing is all given the post you replied to

 

[Spirit Level]

The only positive I'm going to mention:

Hill finally looks like he's realised how good he is. The next few months will be exciting