Review Autopsy Thread - Dogs v GWS

[dogwatch]

Fair enough, I had him as being down in other stats though I could be wrong. The games I've watched he was very disappointing.

Where did he rate in hit outs to advantage? It seemed like we lost a lot of clearances even when Will was getting the taps.

 

[the conch]

Aside from the very poor conversion, the deplorable conversion - the result does not mean anything anyway -what stood out was we have far too many slow players.

GWS relied almost entirely on coast to coast or over the back running goals. We could do nothing about.
We just have too many slow players and clearly, Cameron went into this game with the plan to exploit this deficiency. I have never seen the likes of it.

Obviousl, it was GIAs last game, but I see a number of others who's lack of pace hurts us badly. It allows sides to create loose players and kick free and easy running goals.

Are they really that slow or just lacking determination and focus, accountability.?

 

[the conch]

In a way this GWS game was similar to the first game against the Eagles,
when we were just taken apart by their squadrons of loose, free running players.

 

[dogwatch]

If you read my original post you will see what stats I am talking about.....

We matched them in most areas, indeed we smashed them in most areas.
More disposals, True, but only on the basis of handballs. Kicks were even. The handballs, as I said, were often going back and forward just trying to avoid GWS' superior pressure and were often not very productive. more inside 50's. Most definitely but it also reflected GWS's gameplan somewhat. They were organised in defence and then used speed and willingness to work into space to counterattack, slingshot style. If it works (and it did) you won't get as many i50s but you will get much more effective i50s. To counter it we would have had to adjust our tactics AND work harder when we didn't have the ball. In the first half we did neither.
Despite a small forward line we had double their marks inside 50. A rare stat for us to win - and win it so handsomely! It's an indictment of our forward play and kicking for goal that with 18 i50 marks we could only kick 15 goals. Anyway i50 marks reflects the overall i50s stat - see above.
We had 10 more scoring shots!
Well we had 9 more scores if that's what you mean, and with that we should have won it, although 7 of those were rushed (there were no rushed behinds for GWS). So in effect we had 2 more scoring shots (with 7 other close attempts). This again was an outcome of GWS's game plan, IMO. Anyway our kicking was woeful and once again an opposition side showed us that you can win games by slotting goals from the boundary line. This happens week after week. It can't just be bad luck. Is this because we are just bad shots? Do we practice those shots? Do we believe we can slot them? I don't know what it is but I doubt it's anything to do with work rate. If it is then it's anotehr mark against us. Perhaps it could be related to "playing like millionaires" - i.e. too casually - but there's no proof of that either.

We had periods in the game where we dropped off quite so, and this was where we lost it. In fact for most of the first half we dropped off. .....agree, but on balance we put in I dispute that - it was only in the second half that we consistently put in ... and I don't agree they out worked us, they out out skilled us. We didn't execute well enough. Agree there.

I don't want to start a war TK but I do disagree with you. See reasons above.

You have the advantage of having been at the game and that can often tell a different story, so I would be interested to know if others at the game see it how you see it.

I do know that the TV commentators were saying in exasperation at one point "there's no-one to kick to! THERE'S JUST NO MOVEMENT!" This was when we had the ball late in the game at half back. The tone and the implication was that it had been happening for too much of the day.

 

[the conch]

Really? One thing he has done very well at so far is recruiting and list management

But I am worried about Jones and Talia being disgruntled and wanting out. We can't afford to lose them

I don't know about the recruiting.. too many holes and deficiencies.. lack of complimentary players.
Macca seems pretty old fashioned and set on the type of player he wants. I could see Jones getting a far more decent go and ball delivery at much more successful clubs.

 

[immortalmike]

Stats don't back that up though.

I think dogwatch summed my views up perfectly. It has been a theme our whole year. Many games we have been either unwilling or unable as a team to work back defensively or put pressure on. To have 40ish tackles in an AFL game is an indictment. Mid 60s should be the goal when you have a contested ball focused team. They also worked much harder when they had the ball than we did. I can deal with being beaten for skill but not workrate. And I have a feeling that is why McCartney was so animated in the box and straight up pissed in the presser.

 

[the conch]

How is that, Howard one year too long, maybe Gia one year too long, boyd is playing again next year and he looks cooked already, Smith jury still out first round draft pick but cant f-ing kick for shit, Stevens similar, what about Fuller last year ?..

I like Stevens as a hard working link up player

 

[dogzrule]

I like Stevens as a hard working link up player

He is OK, goes in hard etc but the question is around list management, I would assess him by asking would Stevens get a regular game with the Swans ? Answer is probably not

 

[the conch]

To be honest, I really like what he brings - his good normally outweighs the bad - but we're handing the team over to the young kids. Macrae, Stringer, Bonti, Libba, Hrovat, Dahlhaus, Roughy - these guys are already the core of the team now (with Murphy & Morris vital in defence, Crammers vital in attack). Contested ball and winning it aren't our issues - we rank very low in the AFL for opposition scores from our turnovers, it kills us and Boyd is a culprit.

Next cab off the rank for the young core: Wallis. He plays his best football with Boyd out of the side. Gives us the flexibility of another forward/mid who is good by foot (Hunter, and next year Honeychurch).

It's a call as tough as Crossy, but Boyd may need to be either tapped on the shoulder or rested/subbed at times. He's no longer a 90% TOG lock in the best 22.

Boyd's value is also that of senior leader, but Griff, Morris and Murph are still there. Crameri is setlling in great and stood up to a mighty challenge. Stevens is playing a role / similar sort of player to Boyd now imo.

 

[Libba39]

Yeah it was. It was to keep their top four chances alive. Dude if you want to wallow in self-pity that's fine but don't just make 'facts' up.

oh yes, HHUUUGE game. My hawks mate has never forgiven us for winning that...

give me break.

 

[immortalmike]

oh yes, HHUUUGE game. My hawks mate has never forgiven us for winning that...

give me break.

Dude just admit you were wrong with a feeling. It's cool nobody cares. We're all feeling shit enough, there's no reason to make stuff up to make yourself feel worse.

 

[TempleKelvington]

I don't want to start a war TK but I do disagree with you. See reasons above.

You have the advantage of having been at the game and that can often tell a different story, so I would be interested to know if others at the game see it how you see it.

I do know that the TV commentators were saying in exasperation at one point "there's no-one to kick to! THERE'S JUST NO MOVEMENT!" This was when we had the ball late in the game at half back. The tone and the implication was that it had been happening for too much of the day.

I think dogwatch summed my views up perfectly. It has been a theme our whole year. Many games we have been either unwilling or unable as a team to work back defensively or put pressure on. To have 40ish tackles in an AFL game is an indictment. Mid 60s should be the goal when you have a contested ball focused team. They also worked much harder when they had the ball than we did. I can deal with being beaten for skill but not workrate. And I have a feeling that is why McCartney was so animated in the box and straight up pissed in the presser.

At the game I didn't feel that we didn't have a go. The stats don't tell me that. The score line does not tell me that. We have issues with method and execution and that includes not creating options. That does not therefore mean we didn't try. We may have had patches where effort lapsed, but not the whole game. They out put pressure on for sure, they played well. But they also tackled more because they were beaten for contested ball in part at least.

If we didn't try we wouldn't have been in the game. Convert our chances and we win the game it was as simple as that. Just my thoughts, I reckon all year we have had a crack.

 

[immortalmike]

At the game I didn't feel that we didn't have a go. The stats don't tell me that. The score line does not tell me that. We have issues with method and execution and that includes not creating options. That does not therefore mean we didn't try. We may have had patches where effort lapsed, but not the whole game. They out put pressure on for sure, they played well. But they also tackled more because they were beaten for contested ball in part at least.

If we didn't try we wouldn't have been in the game. Convert our chances and we win the game it was as simple as that. Just my thoughts, I reckon all year we have had a crack.

Nobody is saying we didn't have a crack. What we are saying is we didn't work hard enough. Especially compared to them.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Nobody is saying we didn't have a crack. What we are saying is we didn't work hard enough. Especially compared to them.

Well it's the same thing isn't it? They used it better, perhaps have a better game plan or implemented better? I don't know. End if the day despite our worst skills effort of the year we lost by 6 points. Stringers marks that ball we probably win it. Not much in it. I just can't say hand on heart that the boys didn't work.

 

[immortalmike]

Well it's the same thing isn't it? They used it better, perhaps have a better game plan or implemented better? I don't know. End if the day despite our worst skills effort of the year we lost by 6 points. Stringers marks that ball we probably win it. Not much in it. I just can't say hand on heart that the boys didn't work.

No it's not. We worked hard enough to stay in the game.
Both teams were not equal. We had the stronger bodies, we should have won the clearances and contested possessions. They didn't have two players fit to lace Griffen and Libba's boots when it comes to clearances. Unfortunately it was all left to too few. Our defensive running was (not for the first time this year) diabolical but what made it worse was our offensive running was just as bad. It is what makes our skills look that bad.

 

[TempleKelvington]

No it's not. We worked hard enough to stay in the game.
Both teams were not equal. We had the stronger bodies, we should have won the clearances and contested possessions. They didn't have two players fit to lace Griffen and Libba's boots when it comes to clearances. Unfortunately it was all left to too few. Our defensive running was (not for the first time this year) diabolical but what made it worse was our offensive running was just as bad. It is what makes our skills look that bad.

Enjoying this IM. The skills I am talking about are skills executed under no pressure that cost us goals and our inability to kick goals from set shots, in range. I know what you are saying. We should have won, but for different reasons. That said, we have to work harder, agree. But it's not that far off.

 

[mambavino]

I don't have too much of an issue with our endeavor around the contest, but during many games this season I've been pretty disappointed with our work rate when we have the ball in hand. Many players up the ground refuse to run into space, but rather just stand back and wait for someone else to do it.

Perhaps this is by coaching design rather than a lack of player effort, but I feel like it causes just as many, if not more turnovers than general skill errors.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Are they really that slow or just lacking determination and focus, accountability.?

Maybe a lot of the latter but they are undoubtedly SLOW. They can't outrun anyone and they can't catch anyone (or rarely).

 

[Doggies7]

I still think letting go of Cross was a bad move. His experience and leadership would've come in handy more than once this year.

Definitely 100% not. The idea was to get more games into our young players that cross would have been battling with. What good would Cross have had taking valuable games from Macrae / Wallis / Jong / Hrovat etc? We all love Crossy but he was let go for a reason and that was still a very good decision. We were slow enough this year, could you imagine adding Cross to that instead of one of our young runners?

 

[Bodicifer]

We had too many lazy blokes and they wanted to win more. They kicked a lot better than us and ran a lot harder and faster. Whenever they had the ball and we were in front of them, which wasn't often as we seemed to be chasing a lot of tail, their players up the ground were gut running to space. We weren't gut running to space, we were lazy and reactive.

 

[acker]

←Round: 14 Venue: Docklands Date: Sat, 4-Jul-2009 7:10 PM Attendance: 36827→
Western Bulldogs9.6.6013.10.8815.14.10419.19.133
Hawthorn0.2.20.4.44.6.306.9.45
Qrt marginWB by 58WB by 84WB by 74WB by 88
Qrt scoresWB 60-2WB 28-2HW 26-16WB 29-15

Remember that game we had West Coast aw 0.2.2 at 3/4 Time at the Western Oval - I think Malthouse was coaching WCE that day

 

[acker]

Say what you will about Macca and his strategic coaching, but if there's one coach in the league I'd want talking to Stringer after the match about the dropped mark, it'd be him. I think he'll help Stringer move on in a good way.

Stringer's dropped Mark was just one of many errors - Gia probably tired in the legs like Stringer made late mistakes also

 

[acker]

Will was third best for hit outs in the league.

You need the Champion Data stuff that breaks down Boundary, Centre Bounce, Bounce Around the Ground and Time on Ground including tap to advantage to get a clearer picture of Minson's performance.

 

[boydsno1]

I just want to say that Macrae gave me the shits big time this game and i can see why Macca dropped him. Kid will be a gun but he has no dfensive side and doesn't help the defenders out. There was one peice of play where GWS were breaking away on the wing with no one forward of them and Macrae was the nearest player and barely managed a jog, Higgins who was about 50m away ran at full speed to cover the player and when he got within 20m Macrae just stopped to a walk while GWS scored an easy goal but at least someone like Higgins tried to put some pressure on.

Loved Stringers game. Sure if he marked it we would have won. But i hope he puts it behind him and moves on. He and Crameri combined well today.
Griff and Libba were awesome.

Also you can see the love Murph and Gia have for each other. During the Melee a GWS player is all over Murphy and out of nowhere Gia just comes in and grabs the guy off Murph. Brought a smile to my face.



As disapointing as this year has been i think we can turn it around quickly if we recruit smartly.

 

[maddog37]

I enjoyed the melee.