Bendigo FL discussion 2024

[silver55]

Vafa will beat Bendigo by 250 points

 

[MortlockWatcher]

The reference to a "handpicked" VAFA team sounds suspicious to me ... sounds like they will find out who wants to play for Bendigo and then the Ammos then try and pick a squad so that teams are evenly matched.

The last thing you want is Bendigo playing against an Under 23 B, C and D grade select instead of the "full-blown, open age, give us your best superstars, ex-AFL players and all" team, otherwise it will be a waste of time and money.

 

[Del28562]

The ammos rep teams usually play vic country

 

[DollyA]

A lot of talk about points system v. salary cap
I’m curious as to which teams won premier ships this year with points tally under 25 . I believe Golden Square did.

 

[Forest St End]

A lot of talk about points system v. salary cap
I’m curious as to which teams won premier ships this year with points tally under 25 . I believe Golden Square did.

Only because of discounts. Geary 1 point, Toma 1 point, and so on. If you calculated that side on merit it would push their limit.

Discounts make the whole system impotent. If the AFL gave you a discount on the salary you had to count against the cap for every year someone played we would see teams win multiple consecutive flags all the time.

 

[DollyA]

Could someone explain “discounts”

 

[Forest St End]

Could someone explain “discounts”

Players who were juniors with the club are forever 1 point, everyone else drops one point per year of consecutive service.

 

[Del28562]

How many years do you want Geary to play before he's a 1 pointer, I thought he was a junior player there

 

[Forest St End]

How many years do you want Geary to play before he's a 1 pointer, I thought he was a junior player there

I’d give a one point discount for being a junior player and another point discount for playing 5 consecutive years at a club.

And I’d have a restriction on how many discounted points each team could remove.

 

[saintron]

So who are the new recruits sth are lead to believe to have signed. Any one know.

 

[ROOTA#6]

Only because of discounts. Geary 1 point, Toma 1 point, and so on. If you calculated that side on merit it would push their limit.

Discounts make the whole system impotent. If the AFL gave you a discount on the salary you had to count against the cap for every year someone played we would see teams win multiple consecutive flags all the time.

Why would Jack Geary be anything but 1 point for Square?

 

[Forest St End]

Why would Jack Geary be anything but 1 point for Square?

Because he is far too good a player, being a one pointer completely distorts the system.

There’s also the issue of simple demographics which says that clubs in certain areas have access to greater numbers of junior players and are therefore going to have a significant advantage from points discounts.

I understand your concerns about the points system and how it may impact clubs like Castlemaine and trying to make it balanced, Castlemaine has struggled not due to points but being unsuccessful for long time due to from the outside poor coaching decisions. You want to reduce other teams to pretty much 22x 1 point players, but allow Castlemaine to do what they want this balanced the league but makes the league irrelevant.

So do you make the league irrelevant or do you want Castlemaine to come up. It's likely due to the drop Castlemaine would have bridge the gap not from the recruits they've been able to secure but due to a weaker league.
It's probably good timing as I hope they can launch this in a 5 year plan.

It's important to address the issues that arise from having district leagues with different points structures than major leagues, this is what causes your juniors to seek other clubs, not clubs seeking players.

The intention behind a points system is to promote fair competition and prevent clubs from stacking their teams with highly skilled players from other teams which Golden Square built over a few years hence the low points.

Geary is a junior player, the points system is not intended to punish clubs for having good junior players, but rather to ensure a more balanced playing field across the league.with Henderson and a player returning from Golden Square to castlemaine does this mean castlemaine should be punished because they spent time elsewhere.

The BFL definitely needs a competitive Castlemaine, but it's important to find a balance that doesn't detriment the league as a whole. I agree that talent disparity between leagues may also contribute to the challenges faced by the Bendigo league. Building a strong team through recruiting and developing juniors is a great strategy for long-term success, and I hope Castlemaine starts on that path along with the recruiting strategy.

However what people like you need to stop doing is bagging other clubs, people only bag due to not being able to the same thing, instead of bagging them ask them for ideas most are happy. They stronger each club is the betterthe league and pathway will be.

My question to you forest is why if I had a kid would I send them to Castlemaine? If you can't answer it that's your starting point, find a reason for kids to want to play senior footy for Castlemaine or any footy for the club.

You’re making assertions about my opinions that are not correct.

The only useful tool the game has is the points system. It is literally the only hope of saving the game.

I want to see the points system used to its best potential to do just that, by removing the compromises and using it to balance the inherent inequities in the game. I’m not about the micro of the win loss results of a particular club on this, I’m about the macro of the game surviving.

Remove the junior and ‘loyalty’ discounts, and adjust points allocations every season to reflect results and we have something to work with.

Club support has nothing to do with it in my eyes. I’m just as happy to say it’s a joke Bailey Henderson is worth one point as I am Jack Geary. The balance is too skewed towards discounting when it should give those players a fair points allocation with a slight discount of a point for being loyal. Do it the other way and protect clubs from plunder by loading them up with higher points if they move in the same league.

Surely anyone can see if you have a points system where you allocate an amount to a club then allow all their gun players to be rated as first year out of under 18s run of the mill footballers then the system is worthless?

 

[ROOTA#6]

Because he is far too good a player, being a one pointer completely distorts the system.

There’s also the issue of simple demographics which says that clubs in certain areas have access to greater numbers of junior players and are therefore going to have a significant advantage from points discounts.


You’re making assertions about my opinions that are not correct.

The only useful tool the game has is the points system. It is literally the only hope of saving the game.

I want to see the points system used to its best potential to do just that, by removing the compromises and using it to balance the inherent inequities in the game. I’m not about the micro of the win loss results of a particular club on this, I’m about the macro of the game surviving.

Remove the junior and ‘loyalty’ discounts, and adjust points allocations every season to reflect results and we have something to work with.

Club support has nothing to do with it in my eyes. I’m just as happy to say it’s a joke Bailey Henderson is worth one point as I am Jack Geary. The balance is too skewed towards discounting when it should give those players a fair points allocation with a slight discount of a point for being loyal. Do it the other way and protect clubs from plunder by loading them up with higher points if they move in the same league.

Surely anyone can see if you have a points system where you allocate an amount to a club then allow all their gun players to be rated as first year out of under 18s run of the mill footballers then the system is worthless?

Can’t disagree with you more.
So many reasons and not enough time to put them in writing

 

[Crazymaggy2020]

I understand your concerns about the points system and how it may impact clubs like Castlemaine and trying to make it balanced, Castlemaine has struggled not due to points but being unsuccessful for long time due to from the outside poor coaching decisions. You want to reduce other teams to pretty much 22x 1 point players, but allow Castlemaine to do what they want this balanced the league but makes the league irrelevant.

So do you make the league irrelevant or do you want Castlemaine to come up. It's likely due to the drop Castlemaine would have bridge the gap not from the recruits they've been able to secure but due to a weaker league.
It's probably good timing as I hope they can launch this in a 5 year plan.

It's important to address the issues that arise from having district leagues with different points structures than major leagues, this is what causes your juniors to seek other clubs, not clubs seeking players.

The intention behind a points system is to promote fair competition and prevent clubs from stacking their teams with highly skilled players from other teams which Golden Square built over a few years hence the low points.

Geary is a junior player, the points system is not intended to punish clubs for having good junior players, but rather to ensure a more balanced playing field across the league.with Henderson and a player returning from Golden Square to castlemaine does this mean castlemaine should be punished because they spent time elsewhere.

The BFL definitely needs a competitive Castlemaine, but it's important to find a balance that doesn't detriment the league as a whole. I agree that talent disparity between leagues may also contribute to the challenges faced by the Bendigo league. Building a strong team through recruiting and developing juniors is a great strategy for long-term success, and I hope Castlemaine starts on that path along with the recruiting strategy.

However what people like you need to stop doing is bagging other clubs, people only bag due to not being able to the same thing, instead of bagging them ask them for ideas most are happy. They stronger each club is the betterthe league and pathway will be.

My question to you forest is why if I had a kid would I send them to Castlemaine? If you can't answer it that's your starting point, find a reason for kids to want to play senior footy for Castlemaine or any footy for the club.

No you are spot on

If I had a kid I’d like him / her to play for the clubs who are successful and who make finals year after year.

This is why the bendigo comp is rooted . Too predictable and no changes on the horizon except for battlers to spend $150k over the cap to survive


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Forest St End]

Can’t disagree with you more.
So many reasons and not enough time to put them in writing

Given no one is going to argue he is a better player than a one pointer I’m assuming your arguments are about encouraging loyalty and building great junior programs and being a place kids want to play etc etc

I get that but the problem is it not actually addressing the issues.

If you are like me and read the data available on sports participation at a national level and with individual sports, census data and annual reports by the AFL then the picture is pretty clear.

There’s an emotive old school view of footy that says work hard and be a great club, develop juniors and everything will be ok. Unfortunately the reality is there are factors far more important that will never be in any clubs control.

When I have a chance I’ll put together some data to illustrate it.

 

[Del28562]

The problem is that jack ginnivan played junior footy at strath, despite living in castlemaine, he should have been 10 point player ar strath. Same with Darcy richards at Eaglehawk, despite being a Maryborough junior. The points system is being rorted by the top clubs pillaging the bottom clubs best players in the same league. It's a state wide problem, it's not why the points system was introduced, but the top clubs all through the state are doing this, where most leagues finals sides are already pencilled in.



Changes are required by the afl, to stop this, as it's becoming boring and bottom clubs are giving up. If Hartley can't get castlemaine to finals in 2 years, he'll end up at square, sandy or strath, I've got little doubt, unless of course nully blow them out of the water

 

[Del28562]

Have a look at golden squares 3rds coaches Paul Hamilton and Rowan wharfe, I'd think most clubs senior coaching group don't have that experience mould their juniors, as well as last year brad Eaton coached the under 16s and reserves.

Castlemaine the home club of dusty albeit from the creekerdome, reckon that's a pretty good example of what the club can provide, senior footy opportunity to grow your game as well. Dusty kicked 5 in a half against square, when they were unbeatable

 

[jayco13]

Have a look at golden squares 3rds coaches Paul Hamilton and Rowan wharfe, I'd think most clubs senior coaching group don't have that experience mould their juniors, as well as last year brad Eaton coached the under 16s and reserves.

Castlemaine the home club of dusty albeit from the creekerdome, reckon that's a pretty good example of what the club can provide, senior footy opportunity to grow your game as well. Dusty kicked 5 in a half against square, when they were unbeatable

Paul Hamilton... the guy just slipped out of the AFL system after the Essendon saga without a scratch on him . Wouldn't want my kids near him.

 

[Del28562]

What a senior afl assistant coach for a decade, coached tsl premiership, sanfl senior coach, he'd know nothing about footy, I'm sure rushworth would knock him back if he applied for their senior coaching role

 

[jayco13]

What a senior afl assistant coach for a decade, coached tsl premiership, sanfl senior coach, he'd know nothing about footy, I'm sure rushworth would knock him back if he applied for their senior coaching role

I'm a disgruntled Essendon supporter and he's the only person at Essendon at the time to 'get out', then land an AFL job in the country .. what does that tell you
And yes Rushy would probably take him but that's not what my post was about now was it.....

 

[Forest St End]

data is only the story you tell with it. We could have the same data but tell a different story or the story we want told.

Ok, let's see what you make of this data then.

I'll compare Strathfieldsaye and Maryborough.

Data taken from 2021 census.

Population: 6850 (S), 8160 (M).

Median Age: 36, 51

Families 1960, 2140

Children per household: 1.1, .5

Median weekly household income: $2237, $876

Population per age bracket

0-4: 481, 348

5-9: 606, 403

10-14: 622, 461

15-19: 499, 416

20-24: 321, 360

25-29: 340, 412

So currently, with kids aged 10 - 19, Strath have 1121 in their catchment, Maryborough has 877. That's an almost 25% difference!

By the time the next group come through it's 1087 vs 751, it's over 30%.

The extensive data from the Australian Sports Commission shows two key factors in participation are venue accessibility and peer interaction. No rocket science there, kids go to places near where they live and where their mates are from their area. So without even doing anything Strath are likely to have 30% more juniors than Maryborough. That's playing a game with 13 in a side vs 18. That's a 30% better spread of fund-raising, volunteers, etc etc...I wonder which of those is going to create a more 'positive environment' another key factor in participation rates.
But that's not all. The data also shows key factors in participation are parental and family support and a key barrier to participation is expense.
The average Strath family has nearly three times the income, lower divorce rates, higher education levels (another key factor), and essentially better results in every socio economic factor you can name.

So that 30% gap isn't 30% at all. Strath is in a position of optimal participation and will have higher than average levels, while Maryborough will have lower than average. So that gap is likely more like 35-40% in reality, now we are playing with 10 or 11 vs 18.

And bear in mind this is all before the clubs have even lifted a finger. Just the inherent advantages and disadvantages of where they are located. And before we have mentioned the other clubs in the same catchment.

If you read all that and still think that on top of those massive advantages the competition should put a cherry on top by saying that not only do you have massive advantage in junior numbers we are also going to make them 1 point each just to really hammer it home, then I suggest you apply for a job with AFL Victoria.

This is the stuff AFL Victoria should be doing as their bread and butter and using to drive the direction of the game. There is no way some clubs can ever compete with others over the long term, unless they have the resources (money) to counter the disadvantages by paying players to come as seniors.

So as I keep saying ad nauseam you either have to restructure the entire competitions and start again with 'like teams' or you have to introduce equalisation measures that don't just solidify the good teams advantages as is the case now.

 

[saintron]

lets talk footy not this crap

 

[Forest St End]

lets talk footy not this crap

You can post anything you like Ron and if someone is interested they will talk about it with you. That’s pretty much how a forum works.

 

[saintron]

i know but must be other footy news

 

[Del12221]

Ok, let's see what you make of this data then.

I'll compare Strathfieldsaye and Maryborough.

Data taken from 2021 census.

Population: 6850 (S), 8160 (M).

Median Age: 36, 51

Families 1960, 2140

Children per household: 1.1, .5

Median weekly household income: $2237, $876

Population per age bracket

0-4: 481, 348

5-9: 606, 403

10-14: 622, 461

15-19: 499, 416

20-24: 321, 360

25-29: 340, 412

So currently, with kids aged 10 - 19, Strath have 1121 in their catchment, Maryborough has 877. That's an almost 25% difference!

By the time the next group come through it's 1087 vs 751, it's over 30%.

The extensive data from the Australian Sports Commission shows two key factors in participation are venue accessibility and peer interaction. No rocket science there, kids go to places near where they live and where their mates are from their area. So without even doing anything Strath are likely to have 30% more juniors than Maryborough. That's playing a game with 13 in a side vs 18. That's a 30% better spread of fund-raising, volunteers, etc etc...I wonder which of those is going to create a more 'positive environment' another key factor in participation rates.
But that's not all. The data also shows key factors in participation are parental and family support and a key barrier to participation is expense.
The average Strath family has nearly three times the income, lower divorce rates, higher education levels (another key factor), and essentially better results in every socio economic factor you can name.

So that 30% gap isn't 30% at all. Strath is in a position of optimal participation and will have higher than average levels, while Maryborough will have lower than average. So that gap is likely more like 35-40% in reality, now we are playing with 10 or 11 vs 18.

And bear in mind this is all before the clubs have even lifted a finger. Just the inherent advantages and disadvantages of where they are located. And before we have mentioned the other clubs in the same catchment.

If you read all that and still think that on top of those massive advantages the competition should put a cherry on top by saying that not only do you have massive advantage in junior numbers we are also going to make them 1 point each just to really hammer it home, then I suggest you apply for a job with AFL Victoria.

This is the stuff AFL Victoria should be doing as their bread and butter and using to drive the direction of the game. There is no way some clubs can ever compete with others over the long term, unless they have the resources (money) to counter the disadvantages by paying players to come as seniors.

So as I keep saying ad nauseam you either have to restructure the entire competitions and start again with 'like teams' or you have to introduce equalisation measures that don't just solidify the good teams advantages as is the case now.

I make nothing of the data as I said they tell your story you want to see, Does not correlate to anything material.
The information tells me about the suburbs but not the clubs.

strath also has to compete with 4 other major league clubs for those kids like MB with district, they don’t all go to Strath. Doesn't talk about culture which is core, not saying Strath has an amazing culture or MB has poor one but what's it like? Would we be talking about Strath if they weren't going ok in the same light?

The reality is like Castlemaine they’ve had some poor coaches and struggled to come back from it, nothing to do with the population

Eaglehawk, south, and Sandhurst have all had years they’d want to forget however bounce back.

It’s pretty easy to blame this and that however if you look at their junior programs there’s no pull to the clubs.
There are no gun coaches.

AFL Vic is not going to tell a club can you please stop being hard to play against? Players will leave in their droves why play in a mediocre league? For bugger all to get cash or better games 1.5 hours down the road.

Speaking to someone from a strong club they are struggling with players wanting to come to the club from other junior clubs this includes players from your squares, Sandhurst and Strath’s (obviously it’s one of these that’s the club)

You’re one poor junior coach away from losing a whole age group and your future because you forgot to invest in them more.

I love stats however finding out where all these kids go and why that’ll be more beneficial than the clubs can work out how to stop the bleed.