Blockbutsr matches advanatgeing teams are a myth,

[Vindaloo Mat]

Dan

I disagree. You should also look at what they play vs what you expect them to play...take St Kilda....

They should play....(in brackets are your stats)

4/15 home games against the big 4 = 26.6% (26.6%)
6/15 home games against "interstate" sides = 40% (38.67%)
and 5/15 games against other Vic sides = 33.33% (34.67%)

North

They should play...

4/15 home games against the big 4 = 26.6% (33.3%)
6/15 home games against "interstate" sides = 40% (35.0%)
and 5/15 games against other Vic sides = 33.33% (31.67%)

Bulldogs

4/15 home games against the big 4 = 26.6% (26.03%)
6/15 home games against "interstate" sides = 40% (36.99%)
and 5/15 games against other Vic sides = 33.33% (36.97%)

now all of this looks Dandy....and you can explain any gap by the fact that the Crows and Port play twice and so do the WCE and the Dockers so you would then expect the small Vic sides to play each other more often.

BUT


Essendon
3/15 home games against the big 4 = 20% (25.97%)
6/15 home games against "interstate" sides = 40% (36.4%)
and 6/15 games against other Vic sides = 40% (37.63%)

Collingwood
3/15 home games against the big 4 = 20% (25.97%)
6/15 home games against "interstate" sides = 40% (36.4%)
and 6/15 games against other Vic sides = 40% (37.63%)

So....what is actually happenning here ?

It seems that the big 4 play each other more than they should and play the interstate sides and the small vic sides less than they should.....however the small Vic sides play the big Vic sides at about the right rate....how is this possible ????

I will tell you how.....

The fact is that the interstate sides play each other a disproportionately high number of times (Derbies, and just in general I think this is true). This creates the ability for the Vic sides to also play themselves a disproportionate number of times but in reality this benefit is used to allow only the big 4 to play against each other.....and it does not filter to the small clubs.

To put it another way if the SA and WA clubs always play twice then you would expect St Kilda to play Essendon more often than they would in a random draw. In fact they play them only what you would expect and not more...the more is only shared by the big 4.

Now....where I agree is that if we had a random draw then the Saints would be no worse off....but then the big 4 would be seriously worse off because they would have to play the small clubs and the insterstate sides more often.

Do I make myslef clear ???

Clear as mud.



VM

 

[Vindaloo Mat]

I will also make a point against the smaller clubs.

You will not benefit from a random draw at all. Your gate receipts will not go up....because you will play the big 4 the same amount of times (less in the case of North).....but you will have to play less against each other and more against "interstate" sides.

What you want is that the "interstate" sides play 5 home games each against other "interstate" sides (ie NOT a random draw)....but then the Victorian clubs play each other in a random way.

Infact I would expect that if you had to replace St Kilda vs Bulldogs with St Kilda vs Port your total attendance would go down. So, like the current system or not it also works in your favour to some extent....just not as much of an extent as it does for Essendon.

Personally I couldn't care less who Port play....I would rather us be drawn against weak high crowd sides than strong low crowd sides....winning games is what matters not crowd sizes.

 

[moomba]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blockbuster matches advantaging teams is a myth.

Originally posted by Dan26
... and those matches are underwritten by the AFL. Normal home games aren't.

Happy to be proven wrong here, but I am pretty sure they are not. In the past I think any sort of underwriting has been between the club and the ACT government, but it wouldn't surprise me if we got good enough crowds to make any sort of underwriting worthless.

Moomba

 

[Hearts to hearts]

The "myth" is that blockbusters are in the AFL's possession and they could give them to other clubs if they wanted to. In fact the blockbusters belong completely to the clubs who created them and continue to give them life. Put Saints v Melbourne at the MCG on a sunny Anzac Day and Collingwood v Essendon at Windy Hill on a rainy Mother's Day morning (or any time) and one would still be a blockbuster in the size and passion of the crowd - and it wouldn't be the one in the traditional 'blockbuster' spot. Take away one or both of the big clubs and, guess what, the blockbuster dissolves - killing the blockbusters we've got is killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Supporters of Collingwood and Essendon (and the smaller 'big 2') will find some way of giving their clubs way more money than smaller Melbourne clubs can dream of. That's life. I like that they get big matches that create a buzz for the wider game and bring in gate money that surely benefits the whole competition to some extent. Good for them if they make the most of it.

I love North and I want them to get every reasonable support from the AFL and other clubs, but the argument that smaller clubs would be better off if they played the "blockbusters" really gets up my nose - I don't think my club argues it should get a blockbuster spot but I'd be embarrassed if it did. (And I'll be at two games this weekend. Anzac Day for my Pie partner and the great atmosphere - and Saturday night for North and the forces of light against Pagan, which will also have a great but different atmosphere of its own!)

I haven't had time to read every post on this thread so sorry if I'm repeating what other people have said.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by M29
FWIW you can have your night games. We didn't want them this year and still got them.

just like Dan doesn't care if you have the blockbusters either... but pity your club does... it is all about $$$$$ and don't forget it...

 

[Lestat]

just like Dan doesn't care if you have the blockbusters either... but pity your club does... it is all about $$$$$ and don't forget it...

Here you go....have a kleenex.

Instead of whinging about who has or hasn't got the 'blockbusters', perhaps you should have a go at your pathetic fellow 'barrackers' (cause thats all they are), who fail, year in, year out to buy memberships.

Why don't you have a whinge about them.

We get more at some of our training sessions, then you get at some of your games. Doesn't that embarras you?

Personally, I really hope that the AFL does take away the 'blockbuster' from the big four, I really do.

You can enjoy your Bulldogs vs North Anzac day clash witch attracts a booming 40,000.

While there at it, they can get rid of 'equalisation', and then in a few years when you've got no team to support, you can remember all your whinging.....and you know what....you ungrateful b******* can rot for all I care.

 

[Yianni]

Lestat, that was such a beautifully Right Wing rant.

So at odds with your persona on the Society and Culture Page!

Oh well, I guess Collingwood will do that to people...

 

[Lestat]

Lestat, that was such a beautifully Right Wing rant.

Happens to the best of us Yianni!

In all seriousness, I really don't want the weaker clubs to die...however seems that people here want to whinge for the sake of whinging.

Instead of concentrating on why Nth supporters aren't buying memberships, all I read about is moaning that Coll vs Ess is played on Anzac day. really, its getting rather pathetic...don't you think Yianni?

Seems that people are complaining that Coll, Ess, Carl, Rich draw a big crowd. Like its our fault or something.

Here's a hint to all you North supporters. How bout you start GOING TO YOUR GAMES, then perhaps one day you'll also have your Anzac day clash.

And try not biting the hand that feeds you. If it wasn't for the Coll's and Ess's filling your half empty coffers, theres a big chance you would have no team to follow.

And be careful about what you ask for....cause you might just get it.

If you truly believe that your club would be better off with 'blockbusters' (which attract 40,000 - 50,000), then you seriously need to do some economics.

Just a quick question....do you believe that one of the 'big four' would need to be involved in a block buster, for the game to be economically viable?? (all feel free to answer)

 

[Portia]

Vindaloo Mat, didn't you ever learn to keep the real stats to yourself? Now we'll continue to play Brisbane at the Gabba every year.

 

[Angus1]

Being a North member I don't want to play on Anzac day. That is something that Essendon and Collingwood can have but I'd love to have Friday night games back again.
North did get big crowds at Friday night games and it is easy to see that if there is only one game on then there is more chance to get a bigger crowd.
The big 4 will get a big crowd whatever day they play.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by Hearts to hearts
The "myth" is that blockbusters are in the AFL's possession and they could give them to other clubs if they wanted to. In fact the blockbusters belong completely to the clubs who created them and continue to give them life. Put Saints v Melbourne at the MCG on a sunny Anzac Day and Collingwood v Essendon at Windy Hill on a rainy Mother's Day morning (or any time) and one would still be a blockbuster in the size and passion of the crowd - and it wouldn't be the one in the traditional 'blockbuster' spot. Take away one or both of the big clubs and, guess what, the blockbuster dissolves - killing the blockbusters we've got is killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

I think there is a big difference between the argument that clubs shouldn't be given days such as Anzac Day and the argument that blockbuster clubs shouldn't have a guaranteed home game every year against each other. The first argument I don't agree with, but I can't see the logic in anyone arguing that a guaranteed home game against Collingwood every year does not give Essendon a greater advantage than if they were subject to a truly random draw.

Originally posted by Lestat
Here you go....have a kleenex.

Instead of whinging about who has or hasn't got the 'blockbusters', perhaps you should have a go at your pathetic fellow 'barrackers' (cause thats all they are), who fail, year in, year out to buy memberships.

First time I have actually wanted Dan26 to enter into the discussion, but you should have a look at the percentage of our supporters who buy memberships compared to the percentage of your supporters who buy memberships.

When you do the research I think you will be surprised. Collingwood have many hundreds of thousands more supporters than North, yet they will only end up getting ten thousand or so more members.

Moomba

 

[Lestat]

First time I have actually wanted Dan26 to enter into the discussion, but you should have a look at the percentage of our supporters who buy memberships compared to the percentage of your supporters who buy memberships.

Agreed Moomba, however thats totally irrelevant.

In this case, unfortunately for you (and north) percentages of supporters that are members mean squat. 5% of 900,000 will always be more then 15% of 50,000.

Your club is struggling financially, which in turn means that a higher percentage of North supporters HAVE TO BE members. After all, we're talking about survival here, are we not.

Collingwood's survival is guaranteed, fortunately we can survive with a low percentage of our supporters being members. You cannot! I'm not saying its fair...but its the way it is.

So if you here to 'win an argument', then fine, you make a valid point. However, it will do nothing to ensure your team survives. Just as if you get your 'blockbuster', it to will do nothing to ensure your survival. North need to get there supporters to games, thats all it comes down too.

So perhaps you should be having a go at your supporters, who can stand by and watch while your clubs dies a slow death, refusing to buy a membership.

My point is....if the big four lose the so-called 'blockbuster' games. What do you think will happen? I'll tell you what.

Anzac day will become just another 'game', while the 'blockbuster' games will just move to another date. The smaller clubs will continue to struggle.

You cannot take blockbuster games away from Coll and Essendon....do you want to know why. Because the game is a blockbuster BECAUSE Coll are playing Essendon.

 

[Gopies 2002]

Friday night games and "blockbusters" which include the big 4 (and lets not forget the interstate derbies) have ensured the viability of the clubs like the Bulldogs/North etc through the TV rights at least until this current contract expires.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by Gopies 2002
Friday night games and "blockbusters" which include the big 4 (and lets not forget the interstate derbies) have ensured the viability of the clubs like the Bulldogs/North etc through the TV rights at least until this current contract expires.

This is the point everybody misses every single time. The TV networks did not pay big money so they could televise every minute of every game.

They paid big money so they could give their advertisers a chance to flog their products. The big drawing games like ANZAC Day are also blockbusters for the TV networks. They sell more advertising, at better rates, because the advertisers know teams like Collingwood and Essendon will get more Friday Night games and other "special" days like Anzac Day. The draw is designed to draw crowds and draw TV viewers.

They are the cold hard facts.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by Lestat
Instead of concentrating on why Nth supporters aren't buying memberships, all I read about is moaning that Coll vs Ess is played on Anzac day. really, its getting rather pathetic...don't you think Yianni?

Seems that people are complaining that Coll, Ess, Carl, Rich draw a big crowd. Like its our fault or something.

Here's a hint to all you North supporters. How bout you start GOING TO YOUR GAMES, then perhaps one day you'll also have your Anzac day clash.

It's easier to blame us though. Not themselves.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96
just like Dan doesn't care if you have the blockbusters either... but pity your club does...

Wants the 'block busters' or the friday night games?

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96
Rooboy 96 leans back in his chair... and thinks... why is Dan so defensive...if it makes no difference...

GIVE THEM UP!!!

Hey, that's my theory on Sydney/Brisbane folk with their salary cap concessions!

This is different. Dan was merely pointing out that the "big four" do not get these dreamed up advantages due to playing each other twice. In fact, pretty much all Victorian clubs get an even run at the "big four".

Pretty simple really.

As for a random draw, I'm all for it, with one exception:

Collingwood and Essendon always play on ANZAC Day, even if drawn to play only once for the year. That's a match that it is not all about $$$$$ and don't you ever, ever forget it!!

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Lestat
Anzac day will become just another 'game', while the 'blockbuster' games will just move to another date. The smaller clubs will continue to struggle.

Anzac Day - just another day - has drawn 10,000-30,000 people more than the corresponding fixture between the two sides later in the season since 1995. I'd say that the day has a fair bit to do with that, wouldn't you?

You cannot take blockbuster games away from Coll and Essendon....do you want to know why. Because the game is a blockbuster BECAUSE Coll are playing Essendon.

No, the game has a higher crowd partially because of that, but also because of Anzac Day. Guh.

I have to say, its disappointing the number of Collingwood fans that have to fall back on the TV rights deal to answer everything. I thought you mob were meant to be grassroots working-class feral footballer lovers, not a bunch of self-involved yuppies.

Yes, Coll vs Ess on Anzac Day gets good ratings. So does Coll vs Ess at any other time. St Kilda vs Bulldogs will get good ratings on Anzac Day too. Why? Because there's no other game on and all the shops are closed....quite often Anzac Day isn't part of a long weekend, so there's definitely no-one going on holidays and missing it.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by Porthos
Anzac Day - just another day - has drawn 10,000-30,000 people more than the corresponding fixture between the two sides later in the season since 1995.

And the corresponding game tops attendances that round to.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by FIGJAM
As for a random draw, I'm all for it, with one exception:

Collingwood and Essendon always play on ANZAC Day, even if drawn to play only once for the year. That's a match that it is not all about $$$$$ and don't you ever, ever forget it!!

That would definitely be an improvement, and at least doesn't use money as a primary motivation (just secondary).

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by M29
And the corresponding game tops attendances that round to.

And of course, AFL off-field records are the reason why we all support the game.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Lestat
Here's a hint to all you North supporters. How bout you start GOING TO YOUR GAMES, then perhaps one day you'll also have your Anzac day clash.

Mate I do go to my club's games and I DO have a membership. Not too much more I can do short of doorknocking Jehova's Witness style.

"Hello, can I interest you in the Kangaroos?"

I think what people are saying here (god this does sorta sound like the Society and Culture page) is that:

If it is all survival of the fittest then fine, your economic rationalist arguments hold water. We need more members, we need more people going to games, etc, etc. Fair enough.

However, if the agenda is the survival of the 16 teams, then the landscape changes somewhat. All teams are not equal (i.e. unequal supporter bases, etc) and so the league may need to give some teams a 'leg up'

The problem arises when the aims are not clear. At the same time we have:

1 - TRYING TO ENSURE SURVIVAL OF ALL TEAMS (Requires helping out smaller clubs, larger clubs will pretty much survive on their own)
2 - TRYING TO MAXIMISE ATTENDANCES (Requires scheduling large drawing teams against each other)
3 - ENSURING THAT MEDIA RIGHTS HOLDERS GET THEIR MONEYS WORTH (Requires schuduling large drawing teams in prime time locations)

The problem is that these 3 aims are inconsistent. You cannot achieve 2 and 3 without compromising to some extent 1. This is the problem, and this is why noone will ever win this argument.

Fans of smaller teams are essentially yelling "1! 1! 1!", then the Collingwood and Essendon fans say "Ah yes, we are aware of 1, but you must remember 2, and of course the reason we play all the Friday nights is 3"

What is needed is some clarification as to who runs this game (AFL, Clubs, TV?) and which of those objectives is the most important. When you're trying to do 3 things at once, you probably end up achieving none of them.

If you look at the English Premier League, they are a purely 'survival of the fittest' league (no salary cap, draft, free agency, etc) This is fine, at least people are clear on what they're doing. The results are in line with that strategy (same teams compete every year, best players go to best teams, etc)

I'm not saying that I know the answer, I'm just saying that until there is a CLEAR enunciation of the aims of the league and in what/who's interests the league acts then we will continue to have these discussions.

Fans of larger clubs have the luxury of choosing not to care if they want to. Unfortunately, not all of us do...

 

[Squeak]

Originally posted by Porthos
Yes, Coll vs Ess on Anzac Day gets good ratings. So does Coll vs Ess at any other time. St Kilda vs Bulldogs will get good ratings on Anzac Day too.

Wouldn't be beamed live into Melbourne lounge rooms though. If they wanted ratings they'd play it at night.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by Porthos
And of course, AFL off-field records are the reason why we all support the game.

No. But I couldn't see a bulldogs saints game doing it though.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by Porthos


Yes, Coll vs Ess on Anzac Day gets good ratings. So does Coll vs Ess at any other time. St Kilda vs Bulldogs will get good ratings on Anzac Day too. Why? Because there's no other game on and all the shops are closed....quite often Anzac Day isn't part of a long weekend, so there's definitely no-one going on holidays and missing it.

Give Channel Nine a call and ask them which game they would prefer to televise. Which game would rate better, which would attract/satisfy their advertisers more.

Its all very well to take the left wing pinko feed the world antiglobalisation spin on it. But its a waste of time. Money drives everything, especially so since the day the AFL sold its soul to Channel Nine and Channel Ten.