Bluemour Melting Pot XXIX

[JustaBattler]

Will only happen if McGovern stays on the park and is effective as 2nd ruck.

Agreed - If his body isn't up to AFL it isn't up to it. Don't know if Carlton signed McGovern up for second ruck duties - where did you read that? Most sides go into games with 'recognized' relief ruckmen - which means blokes who play ruck have to be able to either fill a whole behind play in defense and /or be a genuine forward marking target who can kick goals - as well as impact around the ground. McGovern isn't a second ruck - the fact that injury and poor list management has deprived Carlton of a structure for too many games isn't on McGovern surely?- I wouldn't think pointing the finger at him is fair.

 

[Stamos]

Kennedy has gone well past Setterfield imo plus can spend time as a forward.

If Setterfield puts in another performance like this years in 2022, its over for him.

He's had a shocking year no doubt. The Club should be asking why.
There's obvious talent there. We're going to be better off utilising that talent than wasting it.

 

[JustaBattler]

Saad has been a fantastic pick-up - and I am sure a fit Williams will be just as good for us.

 

[DangerousD]

Agreed - If his body isn't up to AFL it isn't up to it. Don't know if Carlton signed McGovern up for second ruck duties - where did you read that? Most sides go into games with 'recognized' relief ruckmen - which means blokes who play ruck have to be able to either fill a whole behind play in defense and /or be a genuine forward marking target who can kick goals - as well as impact around the ground. McGovern isn't a second ruck - the fact that injury and poor list management has deprived Carlton of a structure for too many games isn't on McGovern surely?- I wouldn't think pointing the finger at him is fair.

It’s not his fault his body isn’t up to it, I hope we put more weight to future recruits injury histories, before signing people up to long term deals.

Do you continue to persist or do you try and cut your losses?

 

[Coops93]

Not sure about Gov working as a 2nd ruck. JSOS is taller and plays with much more desire and intensity. He wills himself to make it a contest, not sure Gov is made of that same stuff to compete as a very undersized ruck.

Even that SOS barely wins a tap, he just competes. His main effect is when the ball hits the ground, he's a good ground ball player and becomes an extra mid. McGovern hasn't shown the same level of ground ball effectiveness as SOS

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Saad has been a fantastic pick-up - and I am sure a fit Williams will be just as good for us.

Agree - not sure why the criticism of Saad. I think he's been good for Carlton. I'd love to see how many times he's been in our best (10-15 games) ?

He's also added this dynamism and ability to break the lines that I honestly haven't seen in our plodding backline since the Chris Yarran days. We've been terrible in last 5-6 years in the ball getting bogged down in our backline.

 

[Coops93]

True...
I'd have McGovern at CHF, where he had his best game earlier in the year before he did his hammy..
Takes the pressure off Charlie and allows him to just roam...

TDK (Ruck)

JSOS (2nd Ruck) ..... McGovern ..... Honey
Betts ..... McKay ..... C.Curnow

Roaming could be worse.. A defined role would make the game clearer for him. Roaming and playing on instinct right now probably wouldn't help, as his instincts would be fairly eroded after 2 years out.

 

[Earls Smother]

Not sure about Gov working as a 2nd ruck. JSOS is taller and plays with much more desire and intensity. He wills himself to make it a contest, not sure Gov is made of that same stuff to compete as a very undersized ruck.

Even that SOS barely wins a tap, he just competes. His main effect is when the ball hits the ground, he's a good ground ball player and becomes an extra mid. McGovern hasn't shown the same level of ground ball effectiveness as SOS

I never thought we'd be able to fit them both in when Harry and Charlie were fit, but as long as ONE of them is relief rucking it should be fine. Makes for a much better balance than playing a Pittonet type (TDK main ruck).

Jack would appear to be the better option, but Gov would provide flexible back up in case of something going wrong.

 

[Coops93]

I never thought we'd be able to fit them both in when Harry and Charlie were fit, but as long as ONE of them is relief rucking it should be fine. Makes for a much better balance than playing a Pittonet type (TDK main ruck).

Jack would appear to be the better option, but Gov would provide flexible back up in case of something going wrong.

Tbf I've wanted Jack to play on ball minutes for a long time, if this is a way to get him in there (which it looks like it is) then I'm happy. Once the ball hits the ground he's a genuine advantage, and showed it on the weekend.

Reckon he'll show it again tomorrow. Burgess has toiled admirably, but he's a not-so-nimble smallish key forward playing ruck. Jack has some genuine ground ball ability and instincts. Could be a huge advantage for us.

I love Burgess fwiw, he's an outright trier who's got the most out of himself. Just not the most talented fella.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

You do realise that every deal is done on its own and pretty much is controlled by what collateral that clubs have.

The Saad deal will have no impact on any Cerra deal (which is more likely not to happen than happen).

Sounds more to me like wanting to have a whack at Austin than any discussion about a potential deal.

Adam Saad has had an excellent season, has been a real professional and rates very highly as a defender in all afl stats. Wouldn't be too hard to make a case that we didn't overpay by much if at all.

Yes, unless we brown nose every decision the club makes, it sounds like a hidden agenda to you...

You don't pay pick 8 for a 27 year old hbf. Simple as that.

How about you realise that when a club strikes a deal, that impacts their reputation? Why do you think Dodoro is notorious for being a **** wit at the trade table?

If you think Freo won't say something along the lines of "well you paid pick 8 for a hbf, Cerra is young and set to be a star midfielder, we're going to need a fair bit more than pick 9 (or 10-13) to get it done" then you're dreaming.

It will cost our 1st + SPS minimum.

 

[Earls Smother]

Tbf I've wanted Jack to play on ball minutes for a long time, if this is a way to get him in there (which it looks like it is) then I'm happy. Once the ball hits the ground he's a genuine advantage, and showed it on the weekend.

Reckon he'll show it again tomorrow. Burgess has toiled admirably, but he's a not-so-nimble smallish key forward playing ruck. Jack has some genuine ground ball ability and instincts. Could be a huge advantage for us.

I love Burgess fwiw, he's an outright trier who's got the most out of himself. Just not the most talented fella.

Yep. The other plus is that Jack is not slow as a ruckman, whereas he is exposed more as a permanent forward.

Also takes a bit of pressure off his goal kicking in the same way it can when a batsman can take a few handy wickets.

 

[bmaurizio]

Yes, unless we brown nose every decision the club makes, it sounds like a hidden agenda to you...

You don't pay pick 8 for a 27 year old hbf. Simple as that.

How about you realise that when a club strikes a deal, that impacts their reputation? Why do you think Dodoro is notorious for being a fu** wit at the trade table?

If you think Freo won't say something along the lines of "well you paid pick 8 for a hbf, Cerra is young and set to be a star midfielder, we're going to need a fair bit more than pick 9 (or 10-13) to get it done" then you're dreaming.

It will cost our 1st + SPS minimum.

Yup very happy to trade our draft pick 7 -9 range and SPS, do it in a flash. Cerra is dedicated full time midfielder, very good ball delivery to team advantage, not soft or fragile, and has reasonable athleticism.
Big upside , young, just get it done.
Add Hewitt , ( FA ) if rumore is spot on , trade in Lipinski & Young KPD ( Dogs) if possibly or a Ruckman versatile, we’re ready to create an impact.

 

[Poorman53]

Look at Freo and how they dealt with Weller leaving and the trade to the Suns. It is going to cost to much in picks and money.

Here is a bright idea, how about we in back the in the young talent that we already have on our list, instil confidence in them... Something we have struggled to do for the majority of the last 24 months.

Cerra isn't our panacea.

 

[marleyblue]

Kennedy has gone well past Setterfield imo plus can spend time as a forward.

If Setterfield puts in another performance like this years in 2022, its over for him.

We supporters have short memories - last year we were lauding Setterfield for a breakout season and wondering whether Stocker was a bust after he left the hub. As little as 6 weeks ago many were discussing Dow, Kennedy and Lob as delist/trade candidates (many still are with Lob). Now SPS and Setters are top of most lists to be shipped out

Things can change quickly and we don't know what is going on in the background for some of these guys but what we do know is the club has been pretty dysfunctional and the coaching and positional moves have likely contributed to form and confidence slumps. It's no coincidence that Setters looked good last year playing onball and his form dropped when shifted to a wing; Dow looks great playing onball but drops right off when he moves to hff, Kennedy looks good onball - part of the trick for our coaching panel is finding a way to get the midfield rotation right. For too long, we have had too few rotating through the middle and too few opportunities have been given to the younger mids - moving Murphy and Ed out of the middle, Walsh more time on the wing and Cripps injury has created opportunities. I liked what I saw from Lob last week and hope he can have a strong final three weeks to secure a new deal and set him up for a big 2022

All of these guys aren't necessarily going to make it (and Philp, Carrol, Kemp etc will be coming hard) but you don't let young talent leave without either good compensation or the knowledge they won't make it. SPS and Setters have the skills and the talent but both are currently struggling a little... We need to find a way to turn this around and hopefully Power is the man to unlock their full potential because i really want to see the SPS version we have seen carve it up in the midfield (on a few occasions) - too good a talent to trade for a 3rd round pick...

 

[katmanblue]

Agreed - If his body isn't up to AFL it isn't up to it. Don't know if Carlton signed McGovern up for second ruck duties - where did you read that? Most sides go into games with 'recognized' relief ruckmen - which means blokes who play ruck have to be able to either fill a whole behind play in defense and /or be a genuine forward marking target who can kick goals - as well as impact around the ground. McGovern isn't a second ruck - the fact that injury and poor list management has deprived Carlton of a structure for too many games isn't on McGovern surely?- I wouldn't think pointing the finger at him is fair.

Played some ruck minutes in VFL last week. Has better leap than SOS but is shorter.

Agree with you, but it may come down to doing what he can to help team.

 

[Stamos]

Here is a bright idea, how about we in back the in the young talent that we already have on our list, instil confidence in them... Something we have struggled to do for the majority of the last 24 months.

Probably need a new coach if we're going to do that.

 

[bluebaggerjuls]

Wasn’t too big on Matt Kennedy but his form in recent weeks has showed me how important his extra physicality is in there. We don’t get bullied.

 

[katmanblue]

Agree - not sure why the criticism of Saad. I think he's been good for Carlton. I'd love to see how many times he's been in our best (10-15 games) ?

He's also added this dynamism and ability to break the lines that I honestly haven't seen in our plodding backline since the Chris Yarran days. We've been terrible in last 5-6 years in the ball getting bogged down in our backline.

No one is criticising Saad.

Rather the deal that got him to us. Especially since he was willing to go PSD route himself.

It was really badly managed Austin. Went with the announcement way too early and as a result couldn't split pick 8 for two later firsts.

Hope he has learnt from it. First major trade for him and he got schooled.

None of it really mattersr but posters like to split hairs and 'win' every trade.

Only issue I see is if future trading partners using that as a starting point. Then, we may have difficulties getting trades done without overpaying.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Yes, unless we brown nose every decision the club makes, it sounds like a hidden agenda to you...

You don't pay pick 8 for a 27 year old hbf. Simple as that.

How about you realise that when a club strikes a deal, that impacts their reputation? Why do you think Dodoro is notorious for being a fu** wit at the trade table?

If you think Freo won't say something along the lines of "well you paid pick 8 for a hbf, Cerra is young and set to be a star midfielder, we're going to need a fair bit more than pick 9 (or 10-13) to get it done" then you're dreaming.

It will cost our 1st + SPS minimum.

Cerra's cost will have nothing to do with Saad.

Geelong are known for being easy to deal with in trades, probably paid overs to us for Henderson. As a result clubs are happy to deal with them . That appears to have worked for them overall.

You appear to think that the Dodoro method works well. Hasn't appeared to so far for *.

I'm not sure that I have to realise anything apart from the fact that you are not happy with the Saad trade and want to keep going on about it.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Agreed - If his body isn't up to AFL it isn't up to it. Don't know if Carlton signed McGovern up for second ruck duties - where did you read that? Most sides go into games with 'recognized' relief ruckmen - which means blokes who play ruck have to be able to either fill a whole behind play in defense and /or be a genuine forward marking target who can kick goals - as well as impact around the ground. McGovern isn't a second ruck - the fact that injury and poor list management has deprived Carlton of a structure for too many games isn't on McGovern surely?- I wouldn't think pointing the finger at him is fair.

I agree McGovern isn’t a 2nd ruck but we cannot have a forward structure of the 3 you mentioned plus Jack Silvagni and also have a 2nd ruck....

Too top heavy, congested and would trampoline out of our F50 as bad as it is now.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Yup very happy to trade our draft pick 7 -9 range and SPS, do it in a flash. Cerra is dedicated full time midfielder, very good ball delivery to team advantage, not soft or fragile, and has reasonable athleticism.
Big upside , young, just get it done.
Add Hewitt , ( FA ) if rumore is spot on , trade in Lipinski & Young KPD ( Dogs) if possibly or a Ruckman versatile, we’re ready to create an impact.

Not sure adding so many players from other clubs will return the impact you think it will.

They are coming from different systems and it will take time for them to gel.

What would be our starting midfield if all those trades were to happen?

 

[Poorman53]

No one is criticising Saad.

Rather the deal that got him to us. Especially since he was willing to go PSD route himself.

It was really badly managed Austin. Went with the announcement way too early and as a result couldn't split pick 8 for two later firsts.

Hope he has learnt from it. First major trade for him and he got schooled.

None of it really mattersr but posters like to split hairs and 'win' every trade.

Only issue I see is if future trading partners using that as a starting point. Then, we may have difficulties getting trades done without overpaying.

Considering after Saad we were basically done and the Don's needed to get more deals done at the time we could have 100% held off longer. Austin got shown up as a rookie year one. Doesn't mean he can't improve and bounce back though

 

[Gethelred]

We supporters have short memories - last year we were lauding Setterfield for a breakout season and wondering whether Stocker was a bust after he left the hub. As little as 6 weeks ago many were discussing Dow, Kennedy and Lob as delist/trade candidates (many still are with Lob). Now SPS and Setters are top of most lists to be shipped out

Things can change quickly and we don't know what is going on in the background for some of these guys but what we do know is the club has been pretty dysfunctional and the coaching and positional moves have likely contributed to form and confidence slumps. It's no coincidence that Setters looked good last year playing onball and his form dropped when shifted to a wing; Dow looks great playing onball but drops right off when he moves to hff, Kennedy looks good onball - part of the trick for our coaching panel is finding a way to get the midfield rotation right. For too long, we have had too few rotating through the middle and too few opportunities have been given to the younger mids - moving Murphy and Ed out of the middle, Walsh more time on the wing and Cripps injury has created opportunities. I liked what I saw from Lob last week and hope he can have a strong final three weeks to secure a new deal and set him up for a big 2022

All of these guys aren't going to make it (and Philp, Carrol, Kemp etc will be coming hard) but you don't let young talent leave without either good compensation or the knowledge they won't make it. SPS and Setters have the skills and the talent but both are currently struggling a little... We need to find a way to turn the around and hopefully Power is the man to unlock their full potential because i really want to see the SPS version we have seen carve it up in the midfield (on a few occasions) - too good a talent to trade for a 3rd round pick...

I have a question for you. At what point do you say enough's 'nuf?

I've been a supporter of pretty much all of those players you mention as being maligned or 'shipped out'. I've asked for patience, and for an opportunity to let the first real decent development team we've had at Carlton this side of the millennium. So when I ask you this question, I'm curious.

At what point do you just delist someone?

Setterfield's talent; what's he do that's elite? He's not masterful within a stoppage; he's not an elite accumulator; he's not fast or agile; he's tall for his position, but he doesn't play tall. He doesn't will himself to contests, and while he's a good tackler you can get a good tackler with pick 60 with more hunger than he's got. He doesn't seem to want it, and I'm over waiting for it to click with him. The only attribute that he has which interests me as far as AFL prospects goes is that he is just a little better than average in every way except in his effort. If you could turn his effort around, he'd be fine, but if the horse doesn't want to drink...

At what point do you say, "Hang on a tick, I've got to draft 3 players and continue developing Carroll, Philp, Kemp; I have LOB and SPS who have shown a bit and are hungry to try and improve, and I have AFL players in Dow and Kennedy just from the development group so I know the thing works. Why am I contemplating trading or delisting any of those blokes when Setterfield is a) injured a fair bit, b) doesn't have standout football or athletic attributes beyond just being a little bit better than average, and c) doesn't seem to care remotely enough that an AFL career is slipping through his fingers?"

Yes, things can and will change. Yes, we do need to be patient, and to wait for some of these players to demonstrate their ability. But we also need to be cognizant of the reality that not only will not all of them make it, but you cannot hold onto all of them and we need to improve.

The problem with Cerra isn't Cerra; it's what we'd have to do to get him to Carlton. If we can decrease or mitigate what we will have to pay for him, then that problem goes away.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Saad has been a fantastic pick-up - and I am sure a fit Williams will be just as good for us.

Saad was a great pick because Carlton needed a fast deliverer from defence, that can also lock down. We now need a decent young KPP, so lets forget Cerra for a first rounder and let Kemp and Carroll develop and join Cunners in our AFL team next year. Cerra is a fine player, but he's not a necessity for us, especially for $700 k.

 

[Arr0w]

Agreed. The Saad trade for me was and still is baffling to me that we gave up pick 8 without getting much back.
Austin inexperience showed against Dodoro.
Let’s see if he’s better for it

The Saad pick was extremely high, but with a lot of unknowns that year with Covid and kids missing more footy than this year, it was always going to be higher