Bluemour Melting Pot XXIX

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Who are our actual big earners? Cripps took a pay cut.

Harry & Williams are the 2 I can think of. J Martin was front loaded and isn't on too much now, Saad wasn't too much, $700k or so? Think we'll be able to sort out Walsh fairly easily.

edit Just remembered Charlie is on about $800k or so. Easy to forget as he's not been around much!

Walsh's next contract is going to be pretty big. 17 clubs will be trying to get him out.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I'm hearing $700k for Cerra, yes I would love another quality mid - but, at what cost?

How are we going to keep all our young talent?
Start with Walsh - where's the money to keep him, whilst we already got big $$$ on Crippa, H and the recent recruits from other teams?

Let the club worry about how much they are paying individual players and whether or not it allows us to keep existing players.
We have no knowledge of what our players are on, how close we are to the cap, or any control over it.
Personally, it's the last thing I worry about. The club knows how much it's dishing out to Cripps, Harry, Martin, Saad and Williams. It knows when Walsh comes out of contract, how much he'll be worth and how much they have available.

If we lose Walsh because we can't afford him, THEN it's a problem. All deals will be getting done with the full knowledge that Walsh is up for a new contract at the end of next year.

 

[ferrisb]

Walsh's next contract is going to be pretty big. 17 clubs will be trying to get him out.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Personally, I don’t think Walsh will be on $900,000, he isn’t OOC until 2023, my opinion of him, is that he will sign on for unders, how much, who knows, come draft time, it will be interesting who we move on, maybe the club will trade some middle rung players like Setters, LOB, SPS, who are already on their second contracts, which will free up some cash.

GOV and Charlie, two years left are the closest ones to running out.

2022 and depends how long he signs for really, would be quite the feat if he we could get him to sign for 5 years at 750-850k.

Disappointed but not surprised by the rumour we have made an offer to Clarkson.

I am feeling that Clarkson will be at Carlton next year.

Would have to be a MASSIVE offer for him to even consider it and if I was him, I'd be very apprehensive due to the meddling like the rumour stated.

 

[Coops93]

Walsh's next contract is going to be pretty big. 17 clubs will be trying to get him out.

I'm not concerned in the slightest, I highly doubt he is looking anywhere else. A contract will be worked out.

 

[gbatman]

Getting Cerra doesn't prevent those players, playing in the middle

Exactly, they just have to become a bit better, which is a good thing for us.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

What about a 26yo one?

Come on, spare me the semantics... He didn't play for us until he was a few months from 27

 

[JuddgementDay]

Let the club worry about how much they are paying individual players and whether or not it allows us to keep existing players.
We have no knowledge of what our players are on, how close we are to the cap, or any control over it.
Personally, it's the last thing I worry about. The club knows how much it's dishing out to Cripps, Harry, Martin, Saad and Williams. It knows when Walsh comes out of contract, how much he'll be worth and how much they have available.

If we lose Walsh because we can't afford him, THEN it's a problem. All deals will be getting done with the full knowledge that Walsh is up for a new contract at the end of next year.

Of course, I wouldn't have a clue what the players are actually on.

I was only expanding on the rumour regarding Cerra - as that makes no sense to me, from a $$$ salary cap perspective only.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

True, but I was only demonstrating via contract $$$ guesses. So these numbers are rubbery and lots of give and take!

The point being we have a lot of $$$ on big contracts in recent time and none of those players are due to be at the end of their contract any time soon, throw in Weitering as well.

So, it will be hard enough to scramble to get $900K for Walsh, less alone worried about $700K for Cerra

You've also got Martin on $600k, which was the average over the life of the deal, but heavily front loaded. He's likely on $400-500k now.
This is the problem with worrying about individual contracts and total salary cap space. It's ALL guess work.

 

[gbatman]

Lloyd scrambling for survival (with help from Liddle).
Might (try to) throw Austin under the bus and take a demotion to survive.

#Bluemour

Interesting stuff, are you able to elaborate more on this?

Why is Lloyd scrambling for survival and how is Liddle helping him in that area? In what way might Austin be thrown under the bus?

I am guessing this is related to the review?

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Personally, I don’t think Walsh will be on $900,000, he isn’t OOC until 2023, my opinion of him, is that he will sign on for unders, how much, who knows, come draft time, it will be interesting who we move on, maybe the club will trade some middle rung players like Setters, LOB, SPS, who are already on their second contracts, which will free up some cash.

GOV and Charlie, two years left are the closest ones to running out.

Walsh appears to driven ultimately by success, not dollars IMO.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Walsh appears to driven ultimately by success, not dollars IMO.

Special player and to think we bungled our way into getting him too.

 

[gbatman]

Disappointed but not surprised by the rumour we have made an offer to Clarkson.

I am feeling that Clarkson will be at Carlton next year.

I really hope we haven't made some mega offer to Clarkson where the rest of the footy department suffers.

I hope we are 100% aware that Clarkson's success was driven strongly because they had the best assistant coaches, the best medical and fitness people and the best recruitment and list management team. If we can't provide him with this he will fail. This is why every coach we have had this decade has failed.

 

[GT619]

This joint needs a game of footy

They need a drink

 

[thylacine60]

they have to take the boy off.........

 

[woof39]

The plan was Harry/Charlie/Mitch to dominate any defensive structure in the competition - it could and should still happen.

Although I thought it was a good idea when Mitch came to Carlton (based on your point), since then, I have completely changed my mind about him.

To elaborate more on your post, I am of the opinion of Mitch being a bust and can't see the benefit of him on the list. Here is why:

- Strike one was when he didn't turn up in shape and had to do a separate pre season during the season a few years ago. Totally unacceptable.
- He is always injured. Has always had trouble stringing years together without missing large chunks.
- His performances when he has played, has been little bursts of brilliance but has been carried for most of the games. F

But the real crux of the Mitch issue is his salary (if indeed it is/has been 700k+) and the lowering of standards from some when it comes to his expectations.

Here are some of the 'pro Mitch' points I her a lot from a friend of mine, who defends him all the time:

Point A:
'Mitch is meant to be the 3rd wheel when Harry and Charlie are playing in the same team, but Charlie has not got on the park and we haven't seen the potential of Mitch because of this.'

My concern:
Firstly Mitch is another guy who can't get on the park which is a problem. More so, why are we willing to pay a guy a large amount of the cap to be a 3rd wheel? Why do we accept that for him to produce, he needs two other players in the team? I find that damming of where our expectations are right now.

Lastly, what makes people think that if all 3 are in the team, he will be any better? On what grounds? If you mean because he won't cop all the attention because it will be on Harry and Charlie, then again, why are we willing to pay a guy this amount knowing he can't step up against better players? So if Harry or Charlie get injured, Mitch stops player well? You don't pay up for that kind of player. In fact, why would he get more of the ball when you have Harry and Charlie all proven to be better options (genuine question, am I missing something?)

If you mean that when Harry and Charlie are playing, Mitch can play up the ground more and allow Harry and Charlie to stay at home. In this case, he isn't really the 3rd wheel then, and I am still yet to see Mitch play this role well anyway when he has been given the chance. Jack is well ahead of him here.

Point B:
'Don't be so concerned about the amount we are paying Mitch. It costs a bit more to bring in other players and you are too concerned with the stats. Mitch plays an important role.'

My concern:
We can't ignore overpaying for players. If you want a one way ticket to NOT winning a flag, Mitch is a good example of a poor outcome that will ensure you don't. Don't pay great for good, and don't pay good for average and so on. If you keep doing this, we end up like St kilda, who at best will make it to 6th-8th and just make up numbers in the 8. Their ceiling is low.

As a big name recruit, I think you can only hide behind the 'he plays an important role' idea for so long. When do we actually see more production? Again, his portion of the cap should mean that he is expected to produce a lot more when he is out there.

I know I keep referring to his salary but it is because it is extremely important to get it right in our quest to winning a premiership and it should be heavily scrutinised. He isn't the only player who is arguably in the same boat.

Point C:
'There is no point trading Mitch because no one will want his salary and we can't afford to lose a key position forward.'

My concern:
I agree and there is a reason why other clubs don't want to pay his salary but we should try. I would be surprised that another club want to pay him based on him being the a 3rd wheel at their club or have seen enough of him to suggest he is going to get better in general.

If we are smart about who we target this off season, we should be looking at bolstering our key forward position (considering Levi is probably going to retire) anyway.

I am not actually saying we have to get rid of Mitch because it is probably not going to happen (no club will want him) but I wanted to make the point that in hindsight, it has been a mistake and we urgently need to avoid these again.

If you told me his salary will dramatically drop in 2022 onwards, then he is actually an OK player to have on your list to play as a backup or a third wheel. Unfortunately, that isn't our reality at the moment so I think the pro's of freeing up the cap would trump his output (as long as we find at least 1 other key forward tis off season).

Ideally we have Charlie for most of the 22 season and I even think Oscar Mcdonald, although not as flashy, showed that he is a decent backup in case of injury and costs very little.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Come on, spare me the semantics... He didn't play for us until he was a few months from 27

Correcting misrepresented facts is hardly semantics.
He was coming off a career best year, at the physical peak of his career and ranked as one of the best in the league for his position.
Pick 8 in a weak draft, plus a junk late pick for Saad and what ended up being Durdin at 37 isn't as bad as some would try to have you believe.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Of course, I wouldn't have a clue what the players are actually on.

I was only expanding on the rumour regarding Cerra - as that makes no sense to me, from a $$$ salary cap perspective only.

It makes no sense because we have no idea of the ins and outs of the cap, or individual wages. Hence, why it's best not to sweat it.
If we go after him, the club will only offer him what they can afford and will only chase him if it doesn't destroy our future plans.
You can guarantee that the club will have multiple scenarios in place for the salary cap, which look at least 3-4 years into the future.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Let the club worry about how much they are paying individual players and whether or not it allows us to keep existing players.
We have no knowledge of what our players are on, how close we are to the cap, or any control over it.

I'll take 'Things I said in the late 90s that I wish I hadn't' for $200 thanks Alex.

 

[SBYM]

every day of the week

And twice on any day with a 'y' in it.

 

[DangerousD]

SOS had clear motive for publicly backing the Pick 8 for Saad deal. Help out his good mate Dodoro, and undercut the club the year after he was turfed.

I didn't realise Tomlinson wanted to join? My recollection was we wanted to trade for him, and he wasn't keen. The perception at the time though was that he was a promising key forward who was about to break out, but was stuck behind a couple of players (position-wise) at the Giants.

I can't remember too many high stakes trades SOS is considered to have lost, which leads me to believe he would have been far more creative in facilitating peripheral deals and made Essendon sweat far more than they did.

Theres nothing wrong with the view that SOS had motive to say what he did, my point being, we just simply, don’t know, what he would have done.

My recollection was that Tomlinson was as good as done, but obviously something happened, I only brought it up, as it was mentioned at the time, we would have given up pick 12-13 or whatever it was, so SOS wasn’t dead against offering first round picks for players, we also missed out on nominations from Shiel, so we don’t really have a like for like comparison.

We might have been more creative, we might have made Essendon sweat a bit more, but who knows, I personally think we would have done slightly better, but not by much at all.

Then there is the whole factor of dealing with a close friend, at the end of the day, we got a good player.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I really hope we haven't made some mega offer to Clarkson where the rest of the footy department suffers.

I hope we are 100% aware that Clarkson's success was driven strongly because they had the best assistant coaches, the best medical and fitness people and the best recruitment and list management team. If we can't provide him with this he will fail. This is why every coach we have had this decade has failed.

My concern about Clarko comes from the recent rumour that the younger players at Hawthorn were behind wanting to push him out early.
If that's true, does he have a disconnect with how to deal with the current day, young footballer? Hard arses aren't as well received in the industry these days, rightly or wrongly.
As much as we say our players could do with a nice dose of reality and a hardnosed coach who won't tolerate crap, footy is moving away from those types.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I'll take 'Things I said in the late 90s that I wish I hadn't' for $200 thanks Alex.

Well, hopefully we've learned a little bit since then...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Correcting misrepresented facts is hardly semantics.
He was coming off a career best year, at the physical peak of his career and ranked as one of the best in the league for his position.
Pick 8 in a weak draft, plus a junk late pick for Saad and what ended up being Durdin at 37 isn't as bad as some would try to have you believe.

Like I said, he was a few months away from 27 by the time he actually played for us... which is what matters.

If you think that was a fine deal, good for you.

You call the draft weak, then praise who we got with pick 37... a kid who hasn't proven anything yet doesn't bolster your point.

No one is leading me to believe anything, I make up my own mind. You don't trade pick 8 for a 27 yr old hbf when you're in a rebuild phase. You're acting like he's the missing piece to our flag push... we have far more important areas that we could have improved using that pick than hbf...

That is my stance and always will be.

 

[JuddgementDay]

It makes no sense because we have no idea of the ins and outs of the cap, or individual wages. Hence, why it's best not to sweat it.
If we go after him, the club will only offer him what they can afford and will only chase him if it doesn't destroy our future plans.
You can guarantee that the club will have multiple scenarios in place for the salary cap, which look at least 3-4 years into the future.

LOL - why did you have to bring logic to a discussion , it is a rumour thread after all!
How much does facts play in this thread? Are we seriously after Cerra or not