Bluemour Melting Pot XXVIII

[Coops93]

Mc Govern isn't on the park long enough, is injury prone and hasn't lived up to whatever we saw in him from Adelaide. This will be evidenced by the trade we get when he gets put up.
A sack of sherrins (used)

He was injury prone at Adelaide. My point is that he has lived up to what he was at Adelaide. Almost exactly. His stats are almost identical as are his games per season. 1 season of 20+ games at Adelaide and the others were around 12/13.

I think it’s always been CFC plan that he’d be number 3, which he never really has had the chance to be either. Playing number 3 under Charlie and Harry wouldn’t be such a headache for our rivals structurally but instead Harry hasn’t really come on until this year, the opposition knows Levi is not a massive threat and Mitchy has been injury prone. So he has always got more attention than we intended and he hasn’t been able to stay on the park.

We paid 2 second round picks for him and a salary $700k a year. Would we really do that if we expected him to be nothing more than a 3rd forward who wouldn't be good unless the structure was right for him?

 

[Curnivore]

12

2019 in 16 games he averaged 8 and 1.4 goals a game
2020 in 12 he averaged 7 and 0.75 goals a game
2021 in 3 he averaged 10 and 1.3 goals a game (his injury shortened game was only 7% less gametime than his season average)

Those numbers are very similar to his time at Adelaide, the goals are about the same but possession is slightly less by about 3-4 possies a game. He's basically matching his output with the Crows, so even has the 4th tall - and 5th overall forward (maybe even 6th, depending how much you rate Charlie) - he wasn't doing any better.

But how where the other forwards around him at around him at Adelaide? How many goals did bets crumb off the ground from their big forwards drops? He played his role and their forward line was the best in the comp.

 

[Arr0w]

12

2019 in 16 games he averaged 8 and 1.4 goals a game
2020 in 12 he averaged 7 and 0.75 goals a game
2021 in 3 he averaged 10 and 1.3 goals a game (his injury shortened game was only 7% less gametime than his season average)

Those numbers are very similar to his time at Adelaide, the goals are about the same but possession is slightly less by about 3-4 possies a game. He's basically matching his output with the Crows, so even has the 4th tall - and 5th overall forward (maybe even 6th, depending how much you rate Charlie) - he wasn't doing any better.

Given that and a gameplan that "currently" doesn't share the ball enough amongst our players, I still believe he can contribute

 

[Coops93]

Given that and a gameplan that "currently" doesn't share the ball enough amongst our players, I still believe he can contribute

I hope he will, as hard as I'm being on him I'd obviously much rather him play well than not. Unfortunately 6 years of evidence don't fill me with a lot of confidence that he will.

 

[CJMB]

12

2019 in 16 games he averaged 8 and 1.4 goals a game
2020 in 12 he averaged 7 and 0.75 goals a game
2021 in 3 he averaged 10 and 1.3 goals a game (his injury shortened game was only 7% less gametime than his season average)

Those numbers are very similar to his time at Adelaide, the goals are about the same but possession is slightly less by about 3-4 possies a game. He's basically matching his output with the Crows, so even has the 4th tall - and 5th overall forward (maybe even 6th, depending how much you rate Charlie) - he wasn't doing any better.

Games / Disp Av/ Goal Av
2 / 7.5 /1.5 /
13 / 10.6 / 1.6
20 / 10.4 / 1.3
13 / 7.5 1.6
12 / 9.2 / 3.2

Things can change once you start getting a good run at it. Those are Harry's career averages above.

 

[Coops93]

But how where the other forwards around him at around him at Adelaide? How many goals did bets crumb off the ground from their big forwards drops? He played his role and their forward line was the best in the comp.

The other forwards had fairly important roles in their structure.

Jenkins was the reserve ruck/big tall forward to target for top of the square kicks, Lynch was the lead up pseudo forward/wingman - almost like a false 9 in soccer terms, Betts & Cameron small forwards and Walker was the lead up target and general. McGovern was a bit of cream on top as the the 5th or 6th forward in the team. He wasn't an important cog.

 

[Coops93]

Games / Disp Av/ Goal Av
2 / 7.5 /1.5 /
13 / 10.6 / 1.6
20 / 10.4 / 1.3
13 / 7.5 1.6
12 / 9.2 / 3.2

Things can change once you start getting a good run at it. Those are Harry's career averages above.

Difference is Harry is having lots of shots at goal and taking contested marks, even when not marking he's a target at the top of the square that splits packs. His impact per possession and presence are high. Mitch isn't/his possessions aren't.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I reckon his links are through the print media. Someone at one of the papers. Thats my guess.

Possible, especially given Barass tends to drop news within 24 hours of a public announcement - fits with the deadlines for the daily print cycle. Could just as well be digital media or even our own media/social media team as well (though you'd hope not, and that would be a risky proposition for someone at that level).

 

[3rd Grade Maggy]

The other forwards had fairly important roles in their structure.

Jenkins was the reserve ruck/big tall forward to target for top of the square kicks, Lynch was the lead up pseudo forward/wingman - almost like a false 9 in soccer terms, Betts & Cameron small forwards and Walker was the lead up target and general. McGovern was a bit of cream on top as the the 5th or 6th forward in the team. He wasn't an important cog.

He reminds me of WHE from Collingwood in a lot of ways. Has the ability and x-factor to rip a game apart. Just doesn't.

 

[ferrisb]

Once we've worked this one out we can move on to fixing the gameplan

I found the icon/emoji for our gameplan....



Followed by a lot of this

 

[Curnivore]

The other forwards had fairly important roles in their structure.

Jenkins was the reserve ruck/big tall forward to target for top of the square kicks, Lynch was the lead up pseudo forward/wingman - almost like a false 9 in soccer terms, Betts & Cameron small forwards and Walker was the lead up target and general. McGovern was a bit of cream on top as the the 5th or 6th forward in the team. He wasn't an important cog.

Look you might be right, but our head coach, who was his forwards coach at Adelaide, went to social media to help pull him to Carlton when he was our forward coach so I think Carltons view is different to yours.

 

[Manhattanite]

Possible, especially given Barass tends to drop news within 24 hours of a public announcement - fits with the deadlines for the daily print cycle. Could just as well be digital media or even our own media/social media team as well (though you'd hope not, and that would be a risky proposition for someone at that level).

There’s been times it’s much in advance of media eg Papley to us came about 6 months in advance

Given Barass70 seems to have been giving good mail for a decade or so it’s likely he’s connected to the Board and perhaps to MLG given the timeline since he’s been on the Carlton board for 12 years which matches Barass70.






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[CFC_#17]

Look you might be right, but our head coach, who was his forwards coach at Adelaide, went to social media to help pull him to Carlton when he was our forward coach so I think Carltons view is different to yours.

And Carlton views have been proven very wrong in this situation.

 

[Curnivore]

And Carlton views have been proven very wrong in this situation.

Could very well be the case, however is it wrong to dream of Harry, Charlie and McGovern playing to the best of their abilities in the one forward line?

 

[KohPhi]

Yes Gov has been a real lemon so far in the campaign however things can change very quickly, example Jones supposed gun forward miraculously reinvented to a gun defender, if our team structures are adjusted a little, a well & fit, Mitch is a valuable asset.

And in what would be deliciously ironic.. I think Mitch, who was recruited as a FWD, can re-invent himself as a CHB eventually replacing Jones in a couple of years, and play his best footy there from 28-32.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Games / Disp Av/ Goal Av
2 / 7.5 /1.5 /
13 / 10.6 / 1.6
20 / 10.4 / 1.3
13 / 7.5 1.6
12 / 9.2 / 3.2

Things can change once you start getting a good run at it. Those are Harry's career averages above.

Really a nothing stat.

Harry is coming into his prime, and almost all players have incremental improvement between 18-23.

Mitch came to us in the middle of his prime age.

 

[Coops93]

And in what would be deliciously ironic.. I think Mitch, who was recruited as a FWD, can re-invent himself as a CHB eventually replacing Jones in a couple of years, and play his best footy there from 28-32.

A 190cm McGovern replacing Liam Jones at CHB? McGovern would be a 3rd tall/interceptor. Not a key defender. I'd rather Plowman and Marchbankin that role with Parks the backup tbh.

 

[Gethelred]

Gov has been disappointing, but still has time to contribute

Not many players on the list that have his xfactor

He'd better get a wriggle on demonstrating that xfactor then, because it's not happened once in a Carlton jumper.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

He reminds me of WHE from Collingwood in a lot of ways. Has the ability and x-factor to rip a game apart. Just doesn't.

WHE had a cracking year in 2018 and a very reasonable 2019, when those xfactor players get on a roll the improvement in the team dynamic is quite stark.

Gov is just perennially injured though, his body is crapped out.


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[Arr0w]

He'd better get a wriggle on demonstrating that xfactor then, because it's not happened once in a Carlton jumper.

Happened more than once, just never consistent

 

[Gethelred]

Happened more than once, just never consistent

I can think of maybe a single instant of it, in our game against Geelong last year, with a tackle he laid at CHF. Note that he went on to miss the shot, IIRC.

I do not think it's debateable, really. He's arguably shown less at Carlton than McAdam has at Adelaide, and that's without taking the other elements of the trade alongside it. If he wants an AFL career after this, he needs to get on the park for a significant duration, and he needs to play consistent footy or in bursts of 3 goals plus within 10.

I have no issue with blokes that pop up unless they never do.

 

[CJMB]

Difference is Harry is having lots of shots at goal and taking contested marks, even when not marking he's a target at the top of the square that splits packs. His impact per possession and presence are high. Mitch isn't/his possessions aren't.

Shots on goal is one thing

Harry is averaging 5.8 marks this year and his career average is 5.5. He’s averaging 2.42 contested marks this year, 1.69 last year (shortened qtrs) and 2.25 the year before.

He’s not really clunking that many more (contested) marks, but he’s playing the deep forward, taking more shots and kicking more goals (more accurate).

Really a nothing stat.

Harry is coming into his prime, and almost all players have incremental improvement between 18-23.

Mitch came to us in the middle of his prime age.

Those were the exact stats being used with Mitch.

The point was, aside from goals, Harry’s basic stats haven’t really changed much at all this year, but he’s clearly playing better and is much more of a presence up forward.

Mitch doesn’t necessarily need to rack up 20s to have an impact. Really he probably doesn’t need to get the ball more than he does, he’s just got to use it as well as we know he can (and take marks, make big tackles, etc). Gary Rohan’s 11.9 disposals a game look pretty good in the Cats system playing under Hawkins and Cameron.

 

[17SetMeFree]

Yes Gov has been a real lemon so far in the campaign however things can change very quickly, example Jones supposed gun forward miraculously reinvented to a gun defender, if our team structures are adjusted a little, a well & fit, Mitch is a valuable asset.

yeah , nah

Jones has confidence in his body, Gov doesn't .
It didn't work out. Its cool, we move on

 

[Juddernaut08]

Shots on goal is one thing

Harry is averaging 5.8 marks this year and his career average is 5.5. He’s averaging 2.42 contested marks this year, 1.69 last year (shortened qtrs) and 2.25 the year before.

He’s not really clunking that many more (contested) marks, but he’s playing the deep forward, taking more shots and kicking more goals (more accurate).



Those were the exact stats being used with Mitch.

The point was, aside from goals, Harry’s basic stats haven’t really changed much at all this year, but he’s clearly playing better and is much more of a presence up forward.

Mitch doesn’t necessarily need to rack up 20s to have an impact. Really he probably doesn’t need to get the ball more than he does, he’s just got to use it as well as we know he can (and take marks, make big tackles, etc). Gary Rohan’s 11.9 disposals a game look pretty good in the Cats system playing under Hawkins and Cameron.

No, the point with the "nothing stat" is that you can't compare the statistical output of a first year player improving to a player traded in during their prime years. One is expected to take awhile to improve. The other should be playing well from day dot. This is not what we have received from Mitch.

Gary Rohan plays a different role to Mitch and in any case, was brought in for a pick in the 60s, instead of the equivalent points of pick 13.

 

[Blue Reaper]

We don’t need McGovern to be a superstar, best-on-ground type of player. If he can stay healthy and game-fit, in a forward line with Harry & Charlie, he’ll be a very decent contributor. A piece of the puzzle.