Bock Compo - Appeal to the AFC and AFL

[Vader]

Yeah, but then they'd end up like Fremantle being shit for the first 15 years of their existence!

Not necessarily.

My suggestion would have been to give them the draft picks they have, along with 3-4 picks in each of the later rounds (where they currently have only 1 selection). However, they would be limited to taking a maximum of 10 players in the ND. This would force them to use the draft picks on players, whilst still leaving them with sufficient picks to grab some decent junior talent.

This would see them with 9x 1st round, 4x 2nd round, 4x 3rd round selections, but only 10 selections that they are actually able to use in the draft. The rest of these would have to be traded away in exchange for players, at fair value.

Fremantle were a dumping ground for unwanted players (as were Adelaide to a certain extent - Danny Hughes, Bruce Lindner). Clubs dumped unwanted players on the club, then got a priority selection ahead of the draft in return. This sort of thing saw Essendon dump Delaney on Freo, gaining Lloyd in return. What I'm proposing would see the clubs fairly compensated, without depriving GC of the opportunity to build a solid list. They would still have the additional salary cap room, giving them the ability to offer players financial incentives as they have done under the current system.

 

[jo172]

Not necessarily.

My suggestion would have been to give them the draft picks they have, along with 3-4 picks in each of the later rounds (where they currently have only 1 selection). However, they would be limited to taking a maximum of 10 players in the ND. This would force them to use the draft picks on players, whilst still leaving them with sufficient picks to grab some decent junior talent.

This would see them with 9x 1st round, 4x 2nd round, 4x 3rd round selections, but only 10 selections that they are actually able to use in the draft. The rest of these would have to be traded away in exchange for players, at fair value.

I disagree.

I think the only way to effectively facilitate existing players going to the GC was to allow for de facto free agents to sign with the clubs with compensation being received in return.

Putting the GC in a position where they are forced to trade would make the easy transfer of players impracticable thereby restricting their initial talent base.

 

[big78sam]

I have a suspicion that the AFL has a really narrow band 1 and 2, with a really broad band 3 designed to catch most players. As a result we end up with someone at the top of band 3 and get ripped off.

The club must appeal this fully! Geelong kicked up a stink about compensation if they lost Ablett and the AFL responded by specifically introducing a new band to cover this scenario. Richmond kicked up a stink about potentially losing Martion and the AFL indicated they'd be adequetely compensated given his age. Adeaide need to kick up a stink about this as well. I don’t see it getting anywhere though. This will go the way of other decisions by Victorian administrators setting rules to suit Victorian interests - State of Origin eligibility, father son, etc.

Ablett is band 1 (we assume) and yet who is Geelong's most important player? Many would say Scarlett is more important. I'd argue a fit Bock is just as good as Scarlett (or very close) so how is it that Ablett will get band 1 and Bock band 3. Even if the mathematical formula produces band 3, we should still appeal as I understand there's some sort of "special" subjective criteria

 

[Chris Crouch]

Simplest way would've been have the GC use their draft picks (christ knows they've got enough of them) as compensation.

I agree that this'd be the easiest system, but it's still not perfect.

Consider this situation:
GAblett goes into the draft, nominating a $1.9M per year salary and 5 year contract demand. Gold Coast take him with pick #89 because no-one else can afford that.
If that happened, Geelong fans would burn down the MCG.

As long as GC have a higher salary cap, purely trading picks won't give a fair outcome either.

 

[knobby]

The whole appeals system is a joke !
You appeal to the AFL about ... the AFL, gee I wonder who they would find in favour of ???
It would be like me saying, umm boss I do a better job then you I reckon I should have your salary and drive your BMW 7 series ! (I hope he doesn't read this forum - lol), two chances of that happening !

Anyways, it will be interesting to see what players, if any, are classified Band 2, Gablett of course would be Band 1 quite rightfully being an elite, maybe someone like a Hayes, Chapman, Franklin, Scarlett ?? Is an elite a Brownlow medallist/multiple AA etc, I dunno it will be interesting when/if it happens. Oh yeah I realise they can't get Chapman, Scarlett if Ablett signs and also Franklin off limits now, just hypotheticals.

 

[SurfingTheVoid]

Absolutely pathetic that the Crows dropped the appeal. What a gutless club.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Drop pants

Apply jelly

Bend over

Present cheeks

Then brace yourself.

It's the AFC way.

 

[Encanto]

On the day the AFC were notified of their compensation for Nathan Bock Patrick Keane (AFL spokesman) was on SEN with David Schwarz and Francis Leach explaining the criteria of the band selection after which David asked (in reference to Bocks compensation) if the clubs were able to appeal if they weren't happy with their compensation, Patrick Keane answered with a definite NO, he said that a panel of five had come up with the criteria and that a panel of three had approved it, Andrew McKay was the only name I recall on the panel of three. So it looks as though the AFL has the first and last say on this matter. I feel the AFC were able to complain but unable to appeal.

 

[sagreat]

What I dont understand is.... why is the AFL doing this??

If they wanted to make the GC17 a more competitve team straight away, why wouldn't they provide outstanding compensation to the clubs who lose players... therefore reducing the need for GC17 to pay hacks like Brown $450k per year????

Also if the Crows knew they were going to get a top 5 selection for Bock for example... We would be happy, GC17 get a competitve list of players, and players salaries are not put through the roof???

All the AFL are doing at the moment is pissing of other AFL clubs, and paying blokes like Brown $150k more than they are worth??

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Why waste your time. This club has been pushed around on and off the field for nearly a decade. The only way we will achieve real success is if the Boys Club gets destroyed and we get a stronger administration who are less concerned with image and being the nice guys and more concerned with being ruthless both on and off the field.

The only way we will see major change is if you vote with your $$$, its the only think they understand.

And lets not forget Bocks part in all this. Not once has he come out and said that he hopes the AFC gets adequately compensated. Piece of garbage human being is N Bock.

 

[jo172]

Why waste your time. This club has been pushed around on and off the field for nearly a decade. The only way we will achieve real success is if the Boys Club gets destroyed and we get a stronger administration who are less concerned with image and being the nice guys and more concerned with being ruthless both on and off the field.

The only way we will see major change is if you vote with your $$$, its the only think they understand.

Have you been drinking?

 

[cmndstab]

Why waste your time. This club has been pushed around on and off the field for nearly a decade. The only way we will achieve real success is if the Boys Club gets destroyed and we get a stronger administration who are less concerned with image and being the nice guys and more concerned with being ruthless both on and off the field.

The only way we will see major change is if you vote with your $$$, its the only think they understand.

And lets not forget Bocks part in all this. Not once has he come out and said that he hopes the AFC gets adequately compensated. Piece of garbage human being is N Bock.

So it's everyone's fault except for the AFL?

 

[crowsup]

So it's everyone's fault except for the AFL?

Not "everyone's"!... Just the AFC and Bock!

 

[icrow32]

So it's everyone's fault except for the AFL?

The AFC's new motto:

Inclusive Proud

We can no longer call ourselves uncompromising

 

[johnnypanther]

And lets not forget Bocks part in all this. Not once has he come out and said that he hopes the AFC gets adequately compensated. Piece of garbage human being is N Bock.

That is a bit rough on Bock - how is he supposed to influence an AFL decision based on a prescribed "formula"?

I'm pissed off with the Club for not taking it further and not carrying on about it as Kennett & Eddie would have done in similar circumstances.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that it is the AFL itself which is to blame for this absurd situation.

And there are 2 more years of this GC/GWS compensation system still to come........ although i'm 100% sure that there will be modifications as soon as Vlad/Anderson discover that Collingwood etc get adversely affected.

Just getting back to the Bock situation, re GC/GWS, the compensation was not designed to fully compensate a club for the loss of a player - ok that is fair enough and understandable - however, the compensation was (supposed) to be designed to reflect the relative values of various players with the players age and the contract $ offer to the player by GC/GWS being the key criteria. IMO an appeal based on this relativity is well founded in Bock's case and there appears to be almost universal agreement that in relative terms Bock should be Band 2 compared to Brown Band 3, Krakouer Band 4/5.
Especially given that the AFL stated that a committee established to examine each compensation selection to ensure that it did not produce an anomalous result. Further to this, Kevin Sheehan (talent ID manager) and Andrew McKay to review each compensation selection .... and have the power to recommend a revised compensation outcome to Adrian Anderson if the formula produces an anomalous result.

I still believe that we should take up this issue, especially after GC announce all their signings so that a proper relativity between players can be seen (in terms of their new contract & age).


What about when free agency comes in too?
The AFL has stated that "compensation in the form of AFL allocated draft picks will apply to clubs with a net loss of free agents. This will be based on a formula to be determined by the AFL." Heaven help us!

 

[Dangarman]

Not saying that I agree Brown is worth more than Bock (I am wrapped at the pick we got) but I think more than Pay and Age are taken into account i.e. Im pretty sure that as a premiership player Brown gets a boost over Bock.

What disappoints me is that there seems to be no more weighting given to the harder positions to fill. Intuitively I would have assumed a CHB is worth more than a utility FP/BP player but obviously not according to the formula.

Aaron Keating has a premiership medal too. Would that take him from band 5 to band 4 if he was still playing and wanted to join the house of the rising Suns?

 

[cmndstab]

The AFC's new motto:

Inclusive Proud

We can no longer call ourselves uncompromising

I don't know, in this case it sounds like we've refused to compromise, just that we've done it from the wrong side of the fence

 

[PortBrillance]

Two years ago Bock was an AA CHB and an outstanding player for the Crows. The last two seasons, however, we've seen Bock play just 17 of a possible 46 games. And when he has played, he has not had anywhere near the same level of impact as he had in 2008. Do the trade in 2008 and he'd be a Band 1 player without doubt. 2010 is a completely different story.

Spot on, I think some of you need to take your coloured glasses off and read Jenny's post again.

Rischitelli is in he's early 20's, he WILL be a better player at GC then he was at the Lions (the AFL would be predicting)

Brown is a Premiership player, but he did have a great team also.

Bock's best is well and truly behind him, he wont be as good for GC as he was for the Crows.

If I rated them in order, I'd go:
1. Rischitelli
2. Bock
3. Brown

 

[Slippery Pete]

Just as a side note, did anybody hear what Gerard Whateley had to say about the Crows and Bock?? I can't find the link, but he was scathing on the Adelaide administration and said they were "whinging" too much about Bock, and that the club wouldn't get more than a first round pick on the free market. Whinging?? Has he got the wrong club?

Not withstanding this, I think we have to choose our battles wisely. Even if we're heard, what will we achieve? A draft pick ten places higher up? The fact that the compensation involved is a draft pick makes it very uncertain compensation even at the best of times.

Let this one slide I reckon, folks. Save both barrels for when we really need them.

 

[cmndstab]

Just as a side note, did anybody hear what Gerard Whateley had to say about the Crows and Bock?? I can't find the link, but he was scathing on the Adelaide administration and said they were "whinging" too much about Bock, and that the club wouldn't get more than a first round pick on the free market. Whinging?? Has he got the wrong club?

We'd be happy with a middle first round pick. The thing is, the band 3 compensation is not really a first round pick. It's an early second round pick in drag. If we had been given a band 2 compensation pick, which we clearly deserved, then it would likely have been somewhere around the middle, since even in their darkest years the Crows don't tend to finish right at the bottom of the ladder.


Disgraceful comment.

 

[Dangarman]

So OK (well, not really), now we've rolled over and taken the hit, exactly what is an 'end of R1 draft pick'? Is it all clubs take their first round picks, then all the clubs that want to use an 'end of R1' pick get to use it in reverse finish order, yes? e.g. if Bris want to use their Rischitelli compo pick same year we do, they go before us?

This is from the AFL website in 2009, when the concessions for GC were announced:

As part of the entry rules for the Gold Coast side, the AFL Commission resolved that any club that lost a player to the expansion side would be eligible for a compensation pick (after the entry of both Gold Coast and the second club to be based in Sydney).

Compensation picks will be tradeable and can be used by clubs at any time within five years. First round compensation picks cannot be used until the end of the first round in the 2010 and 2011 drafts. Clubs will be required to nominate the year in which they plan to use the compensation pick before the first round of the Toyota AFL Premiership Season in that particular year.

The compensatory pick would be assessed around the player’s age (greater weighting for younger players), club contract ranking (greater weighting for club key players), onfield performance (greater weighting for strong club best and fairest performance) and draft position if less than four years experience.

This ranking system will then determine if a club is eligible for a compensatory pick in one of five spots - first-round pick, end-of-first-round pick, second-round pick, end-of-second-round pick or third-round pick. Under the model, the round-one, round-two or round-three picks would be taken immediately after the pick the club already has in that round in the draft that year.

That taken at face value, we couldn't use the pick this year, as per the red above, we had to nominate before R1 this year. Go figure.

So, our options are:

1. We could trade it. What the pick becomes after being traded is anyone's guess. Is the draft order finalised before trade week? Does it stay as what # it would have been if we took it, or does it change depending where the club we trade it to finish? Can we trade it before saying when we take it? Does a traded pick have to be used in the year it was traded? I'm confused here.

2. We could use it this year. Perhaps. Could be as high as 26, if none of WC, Mel, Bris, Rich want to use or trade a first round compensation pick. Could be as low as 30 if they all do. We know Bris already have one as an option. As an aside, we would gain no/minimal advantage if it were a band 2 pick, and we used it this year.

3. We could use it next year, and have to nominate this before season starts. Assuming GWS get similar draft pillage picks, the pick would be of similar value. Maybe less, if we finish higher on the ladder, and other clubs use priority picks. Again, at best, pick 26 (even if we had got proper compensation).

4. We could use it in 2012. Again, we would have to nominate prior to season start. Best case, in terms of drafting, we win the spoon and get our compo pick at 19. However, if we are back in the 8 by then, we would probably have other clubs wanting to use their compo pick in front of us.

5. Use it in 2013 Still not worth more than pick 19 as it stands.

So I would say the club has picked their battle well on this one. If we won the battle, the best it would get us is a higher pick if we waited 2 years.
I say we should take or trade the pick this year, and put 2 years of the finest AFC development into whoever we get for it.

 

[Vader]

That taken at face value, we couldn't use the pick this year, as per the red above, we had to nominate before R1 this year. Go figure.

We have until 2pm on Friday November 5th to notify the AFL if we wish to use the compensation pick this year. From 2011 onwards we have to do it before the beginning of R1.

1. We could trade it. What the pick becomes after being traded is anyone's guess. Is the draft order finalised before trade week? Does it stay as what # it would have been if we took it, or does it change depending where the club we trade it to finish? Can we trade it before saying when we take it? Does a traded pick have to be used in the year it was traded? I'm confused here.

The draft order isn't finalised until List Lodgement 2, which occurs on Wednesday 10th November. To put that into perspective, Trade Week runs from Mon 4th October to Mon 11th October.

The selection will always be relative to our position on the ladder, even if we trade it. Teams below us with Band 1, 2 or 3 concessions will pick first.

No, it doesn't have to be used in the year in which it is traded.

2. We could use it this year. Perhaps. Could be as high as 26, if none of WC, Mel, Bris, Rich want to use or trade a first round compensation pick. Could be as low as 30 if they all do. We know Bris already have one as an option. As an aside, we would gain no/minimal advantage if it were a band 2 pick, and we used it this year.

Right now, only Brisbane can trump us (using the Rischitelli pick). Hawthorn (Brown) finished above us, so their pick would be later. WC, Mel & Rich don't have any concession picks, because GC weren't interested in any of their players.

We may also get trumped by Geelong (Ablett - Band 1) and possibly Footscray (if Harbrow is determined to be Band 2).

3. We could use it next year, and have to nominate this before season starts. Assuming GWS get similar draft pillage picks, the pick would be of similar value. Maybe less, if we finish higher on the ladder, and other clubs use priority picks. Again, at best, pick 26 (even if we had got proper compensation).

At best it would be pick 27 next year, noting that there's one more club in the draft relative to 2010.

4. We could use it in 2012. Again, we would have to nominate prior to season start. Best case, in terms of drafting, we win the spoon and get our compo pick at 19. However, if we are back in the 8 by then, we would probably have other clubs wanting to use their compo pick in front of us.

5. Use it in 2013 Still not worth more than pick 19 as it stands.

Yep.. best case from 2012-2014 is pick #19.

So I would say the club has picked their battle well on this one. If we won the battle, the best it would get us is a higher pick if we waited 2 years.
I say we should take or trade the pick this year, and put 2 years of the finest AFC development into whoever we get for it.

If we chose to appeal - and then take the AFL to court when the appeal fails - then we could (should) end up with a Band 2 selection. Band 2 could result in pick #2 in 2012-2014, if we were to "win" the wooden spoon.

As for the question of when to use it.. I'll leave that one up to Rendell, trusting that he knows more about the strength of the upcoming drafts than I do.

 

[Dangarman]

Thanks Vader, great reply as always.

Right now, only Brisbane can trump us (using the Rischitelli pick). Hawthorn (Brown) finished above us, so their pick would be later. WC, Mel & Rich don't have any concession picks, because GC weren't interested in any of their players.

Is it past the stage where they could get an uncontracted WC/Mel/Rich player?

We may also get trumped by Geelong (Ablett - Band 1) and possibly Footscray (if Harbrow is determined to be Band 2).

I expect they would pick ahead of us if they got band 1/2 compensation, even though they can't pick before round 1 is complete.

If we chose to appeal - and then take the AFL to court when the appeal fails - then we could (should) end up with a Band 2 selection. Band 2 could result in pick #2 in 2012-2014, if we were to "win" the wooden spoon.

Tony Armstrong will have served his club suspension by then, so there is no way we could possibly finish last......(TIC)

As for the question of when to use it.. I'll leave that one up to Rendell, trusting that he knows more about the strength of the upcoming drafts than I do.

In Rendell we trust!

 

[Vader]

Is it past the stage where they could get an uncontracted WC/Mel/Rich player?

Not yet. They have until Wed 7th October to sign their uncontracted players - with that deadline falling smack bang in the middle of trade week.

Aside from a few spectators hoping to pick up some free draft picks for their rubbish players there has been no indication that GC have ever been interested in players from these teams. Their signings have all been well known for a while now - with a 100% strike rate so far from those who were identified months ago.

 

[Crow-mo]

Nevertheless, the fact remains that it is the AFL itself which is to blame for this absurd situation.

no its not.

yes its true that the clubs agreed the compensation scheme, but that's not really relevant.

what is really relevant is the amateurish mistake of not agreeing a proper grievance procedure. IF its true that Vlad and mini me are the appeals board, having sat originally, then that's unforgivable - no one should have agreed that.