Brisbane to wear Fitzroy jumper in once off next year

[out_we_come]

original post removed by Danni

and on that note, welcome to bigfooty you strange little poster. Please remember that team boards are for supporters of those teams and should you choose to post there you will do so with respect to that team and their supporters.

If you don't, you will find your stay very shortlived (which I think may be the case).

 

[baz77]

Originally posted by Stocka


The point is though, that the Fitzroy element of the club is relevant to the Federation era, whereas, the Bears weren't even a glint in the eye of the football world at the time in question.

If the club does decide to wear one of the various Fitzroy jumpers for the occasion, it will be because of this reason. In future, there will most likely also be opportunities to wear a Bears jumper at some stage, upon when it is historically appropriate to do so.

Well fine by me if this is done for a melbourne game, if it increases the support base in Melbourne for the merger than why not. It is commercial world after all

 

[blackers]

How about the Fitzroy jumper from 1901? The Roys were the powerhouse team at the time of federation and already had two VFL premierships from the leagues first four seasons. This would be fair on the basis that (a) the Lions were so dominant at that time; (b) the Bears weren't playing in 1901; and (c) the Fitzroy jumper of that era is actually a bit reminiscent of Queensland - maroon with a yellow V-shaped yoke.

 

[Horace]

What would be wrong with all Victorian home games played in the traditional Fitzroy jumper at the time of the merger and an equivalent number of games in Brisbane played in the Bears jumper, all other games including finals in the post merger jumper?

Three different jumpers to flog from a marketing point of view, suit the majority of supporters attending games in each state and recognises the origins of the clubs forming the merger.

 

[LionsForever]

It will be nice seeing them play in a Fitzroy jersey for a one off game next season. (Especially the original Lions players)

 

[Danni]

Originally posted by Horace
What would be wrong with all Victorian home games played in the traditional Fitzroy jumper at the time of the merger and an equivalent number of games in Brisbane played in the Bears jumper, all other games including finals in the post merger jumper?

Three different jumpers to flog from a marketing point of view, suit the majority of supporters attending games in each state and recognises the origins of the clubs forming the merger.

When I read a post like that I feel like I have just been kicked in the guts.

I have not in the past, do not at this moment, and will not in the future (under scenarios I can think of) support the wearing of any other jumper bar our Brisbane Lions one.

6 years, 2 brownlow medal wins, a norm smith medal win, 2 premierships,a stable of All Australians and a copious amounts of individual player awards, coaching awards and team awards for the BRISBANE LIONS.

Our teams 'parentage' is recognised in our trading name, our team name, our current jumper, our B&F award. Through the TOC awards, the clubs coteries, the memorabilia and honour boards in VIC and QLD. And of course through the most recent addition of the BBFFC on the jumper.

Don't ask our club to look like Fitzroy or the Bears, even for only a day, cause we are not either of them. We are the Brisbane Lions.

Don't jump on the 'opportunity' just because it is there. An emotional band-aid it may be to some, just as much as it is the scalpel re-opening the wounds of others.

Don't ask our club to be something we are not.

Do ask them never to forget.

Enough 'gestures' have been made, let us concerntrate on creating more and more history of our own, instead of looking for opportunities to take the past and try and fit it into the present.

Please. Let's just be the Brisbane Lions. Please.

 

[Horace]

Well Danni, you had better read the title of this thread "Brisbane to wear Fitzroy jumper in once off next year". Thats what started the thread.

On GF day, Laurie Serafini stated that he was hopeful of just that happening next year.

I am not a member of the Brisbane Lions, instead support North nowadays, however, if the Fitzroy jumper reappeared in Melbourne once a year, I would rejoin in a flash.

You are over reacting saying my suggestion is a "kick in the guts". It is only a suggestion, meant in the spirit of raising reasonable debate and in an effort to recognise both clubs from the merger.

If in Brisbanes current parlous financial situation, it increased Melbourne membership by a few hundred members, then surely that can only be good for the club.

I may differ from other old Fitzroy people, but I still rue the fact that I cannot see the colours I was so used to, and cannot still shout "Go Roys" like I used to.

Just my personal opinion, but if the old jumper came out, I believe that I could shout "Go Roys" again.

 

[Danni]

Horace I have read the title of this thread, it is not gospel. It is based on a comment inluding a 'maybe' or 'might' from Andrew Demetriou. No decision or public comment from the Club has been made on this issue.

You don't seem to understand that as much as you want to see your jumper and how much it means to you, that very same 'much' it hurts me.

I'm not having a go here. I'm not trying to stir the pot.

I am simply talking about my feelings, what it would do to me, and to my family, and to other supporters I know.

As I said in my previous post, as much of an emotional band-aid it would be for some (by the sounds of it yourself included) it would be the scalpel reopening the wounds of others.

I am a Brisbane Lions Supporter. I am not Fitzroy, and I am no longer the Bears. There is no one or the other. There is who we are now, and that is that is who we should represent on the field in my opinion.

You call it over-reacting, so be it. Just as much as I call it Fickle, that it is the wearing of a jumper once a year that is being blamed for your choice to support North Melbourne. That is my opinon.

 

[Horace]

Danni, there is much more than just the jumper causing me to support North Melbourne. Please don't ever call me fickle, that is "kicking someone in the guts".

I do not intend to raise my reasons or defend my reasons for supporting North Melbourne, rather than Brisbane, in this thread.
Suffice to say that there are many many reasons, and these have been debated many times on the Fitzroy board.

Just as I have many reasons for supporting North, so too do many old Fitzroy people have reasons for supporting the Brisbane Lions. I respect them for that and happen to be very delighted for them that their new club has won two flags in a row.

Let me just say this, I am a 53 three year old, whose first spoken word (I am told) was Fitzroy. Forgive me then if today the chance of the Brisbane Lions wearing the old Fitzroy jumper just once a year, allows me to pretend it is Fitzroy.

Of course it may never happen, but no harm in wondering.

I reiterate that I was attempting to guage the feelings of others in raising my original suggestion. It wasn't intended to "hurt" anyone and I fail to see why or how it should. There are arguably far worse and more hurtful things posted on this board than what I said.

I hope some other old Bears and Roys do just that to get a feel for the concept.

 

[Danni]

Horace it isn't the suggestion that hurts, it would be the deed that hurts.

You say you want the chance to pretend it is Fitzroy. That is one of the parts that hurts me. That you want to take my club and pretend it is something else, to make yourself feel better.

I am not judging you for feeling that way. I am just saying, what makes you feel better, hurts others. And that that has to be taken into consideration on an issue such as this.

I also have to voice my disappointment that for some the wearing of the jumper is the only reason they could find to 'come into the fold', when there is so very much more there on offer.

 

[Horace]

Danni, I suspect that you and I might struggle to ever understand one another, nevertheless at the end of the day it will not be people like you and me who make the decision, but the hard nosed marketing people at the club. If they think such a move will make money, they will do it.

It is also not just your club, and certainly not my club. It belongs to all those people who for many different reasons support the club in its current form. There are many people I suspect who would love for a variety of reasons to see either the old Bears or old Lions jumper come out and love those coulours for what they were, but not in anyway see the wearing of the colours as a denigration of what is now the reality.

For everyone like you who is hurt by the concept, there might be someone or even many more who would delight in the concept and thus further help to consolidate their long term support of the club.

Though I very much doubt it at this stage, if something is done that might create a reason for me to get back on board, then maybe I might as you put it "see that there is very much more on offer". Maybe there are more like me. I have said I will buy a membership for just that one game, let alone more games. Wouldn't you like a few more potentially on board?

There is a small thread on the Fitzroy board, called "Fitzroy comeback". Perhaps you should have a read of that .

 

[Homer]

I agree with Danni.

We are the Brisbane Lions. we should only ever play in our jumper. Not our PARENTS jumpers.

We are one club, we have worked hard as supporters to unite. We can never let something like this divide us again.

I have emailed the Lions and the AFL to let them know my feelings on this matter.

 

[Danni]

Look Horace, I understand you, I just don't agree with you.

I understand the sense of loss, I understand the sense of not belonging, and then looking for ways of feeling like it is what you lost. I understand the emotion and attachment to a club where it must feel like losing a family member when that club isn't there anymore. I understand the mourning of 100 years of history that now has no chance of becoming 200 years. I understand the loss of tribalism and community felt amongst the supporters. I also have to thank Bill Atherton for helping me understand alot of this, or at least making it clearer to me so that I could have a sense of understanding where people like yourself are coming from.

I also understand what it was like from the other side, the side I lived. And I understand how hard it is to move forward, make something new 'your own' even when it doesn't look or feel like it. And I understand the bitterness and the arguements and the competition and even hatred between different factions, all trying to justify their feelings and their wants and perceived needs.

Most importantly to me I understand the differences between those who have chosen not to follow, and those that have, but have each done it unconditionally.

What I don't understand, and don't want to understand, is those making their following and acceptance and acknowledgement based upon 'conditions' like wearing the jumper and pretending to be something we aren't. After 6 years, many many 'gestures', the creation of new history and acceptance of the parentage, I don't want to understand those that want to hold our club to ransom over their membership $$ based on what they want, which is not necessarily what is best for us to move even further forward.

 

[Horace]

Danni, as so often happpens in these matters, lets just agree to disagree and call it quits. What happens happens I am afraid so lets see what comes in 2003.

I certainly refute the bit about holding the club to ransom over membership $, though. Thats not me if they don't wear the jumper well so be it, I don't expect it, I just think it would be nice. I certainly have never contacted the club and asked them to do it for my membership dollar.

As a matter of fact the Kangaroos need my membership much more than the Lions, so given the fact that it appears the wearing of the jumper might be divisive, I will bow right out of that idea and instead buy an extra membership with the Kangaroos.

 

[Danni]

As I said Horace - I am happy to understand and just disagree. And that is fine. Life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything. I just want you to know that I am not suggesting that you are holding the club to ransom - but that I do abhor those that publicly state such ideas as if they don't do this or that then I won't join them.

Each to their own, and each to their own ways of remembering and respecting the 2 clubs that are no longer part of the AFL. But at the same time, lets move forward and build more and more history and occassions for who we are now and what we are achieving, instead of trying to live in the past.

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Horace
What would be wrong with all Victorian home games played in the traditional Fitzroy jumper at the time of the merger and an equivalent number of games in Brisbane played in the Bears jumper, all other games including finals in the post merger jumper?

I'd have to disagree with this.

While I'm in favor of of the occasional one-off game in the old Fitzroy or Brisbane Bears jumper, the reality is we are a new club and we should be wearing our current jumper for most matches. In any case the current jumper is very close in design to Fitzroy's old jumper (apart from the FFC monogram and the changing of red to maroon)

Originally posted by Horace

Three different jumpers to flog from a marketing point of view, suit the majority of supporters attending games in each state and recognises the origins of the clubs forming the merger.

True, but this also promotes divisiveness amongst all Lions supporters. We should be about celebratring and commemorating our history (which I don't believe is about living in the past) but also promoting unity. We are a new club that started competing in the AFL in 1997.....not 1987 or 1897.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by Roylion
True, but this also promotes divisiveness amongst all Lions supporters. We should be about celebratring and commemorating our history (which I don't believe is about living in the past) but also promoting unity. We are a new club that started competing in the AFL in 1997.....not 1987 or 1897.

I agree with this 100%. It's about time we started proving to people how united we are as a club, not as two separate entities. If there are people who feel they can't support us without wearing a Roys jumper once a year - well, that's sad, but it's their choice. What about those who won't support us unless we wear it twice a year, or in all away games, or all games? You have to draw the line somewhere - wherever you do it you're going to disappoint some people. My feeling is that this will alienate more people than it brings in to the club.

 

[luthor]

I agree.

I am very mindful of the traditions underpinning both former clubs. I'm also mindful of the fact that Fitzroy had 100 years of it.

Maybe I was not as attached to the Bears as much as Fitzroy people were to their club but subjectively,I don't favour reincarnation of either jumper, even for a one off. The concept just doesn't grab me.

Objectively, I would be concerned that dragging the old jumpers out of mothballs would have the potential to fan the flames of division that so many people have worked hard to extinguish.

Finally, like Danni, I struggle with the rationale of people like Horace who are obviously carrying a lot of hurt yet make sweeping statements that all will be forgiven if only they could see the Fitzroy jumper on the park just one more time.

I find that not only hard to understand, but hard to believe!

Finally (and I mean finally, because I won't post on this subject again), I think it's a bit precious to claim you are going to buy a second membership to another club because someone had the temerity to disagree with your opinion.

 

[Horace]

Luthor, read my posts, I never said all will be forgiven or anything like that. There will never be forgiveness, but thats a very different story to what this thread is about. And thats not having a go at the Brisbane of today, thats having a go at what happened in 1996.

If you chose to read what I have said, you will note that I was suggesting that this might also prove to be a good marketing exercise and that it might be a means of winning some people who remain lost to football or uncommitted to any football team. These people do actually exist.

The Brisbane Lionsiare like so many clubs this year, going to post a loss. It would not surprise me if this loss is of the order of $1m. Last year the club also made a loss.

There will be no more merger packages to hand out and it would be a very brave club that asked the AFL for a hand out in the current circumstances, in a year when it is believed that at least 9 other clubs will post losses, some quite significant including the Bulldogs, the Kangaroos and Carlton.

Yesterdays Age states that the AFL's 2001 annual report predicted that at the end of 2002, the AFL debt will be an "unsustainable level of $47m".

So Brisbane and its supporters need to be embracing new and innovative ways of attracting new supporters and old supporters as well if the club is to prosper.

Do not confuse winning flags with financial success. The two do not go hand in hand.

So forget the so called "hurt" that you and others feel about wearing different jumpers for different occasions and start to think about how your club might achieve financial stability in the long term. Innovative marketing ideas figure largely in the minds of football club executives trying to work out how to make ends meet in increasingly difficult economic sporting times.

If wearing the old Fitzroy jumper brought back say 1000 members in Melbourne, generating say $80000 to $100000 a year and the capacity to leverage off that into the future, would that be a worthwhile exercise, especially if in a small way it helped your club to maintain its on field position of strength?

 

[skilts]

For forty-one years I followed Fitzroy and have fond memories of some of those years. The last five years of Fitzroy's existence were horrendous for me. To the extent, that when the merger occured, I was relieved the pain was over. I followed Brisbane in the 1996 finals and have done so ever since.

Horace's problem is that he now barracks for North, and he believes the option he took should have been taken by all Fitzroy supporters. I couldn't possibly have barracked for a team I'd hated for all those years, because they were such dirty beggars. If I'd followed North, I would have felt like a traitor for everything Fitzroy stood for.

I always believed Fitzroy should have gone to Brisbane, in 1986, as the players wanted. When the two teams merged in 1996, I got what I wanted, just ten years late. Neither I, nor anyone else could possibly have had anything against Brisbane, until they recently became successful.

The tradition Brisbane is in the process of developing now is of more importance to me than any false, artificial attempt to resurrect something which no longer exists. I'm extremely proud of the jumper in which we have had such a good, and sometimes less than good time, in the past seven years. To the extent where, at the age of fifty-four, I bought myself one this season. That's what I think of our current strip. I'm prepared to make an absolute goose of myself in public for its sake.

 

[luthor]

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Good on ya Skilts.

Originally posted by Horace
The Brisbane Lionsiare like so many clubs this year, going to post a loss. It would not surprise me if this loss is of the order of $1m. Last year the club also made a loss.

There will be no more merger packages to hand out and it would be a very brave club that asked the AFL for a hand out in the current circumstances, in a year when it is believed that at least 9 other clubs will post losses, some quite significant including the Bulldogs, the Kangaroos and Carlton.

Yesterdays Age states that the AFL's 2001 annual report predicted that at the end of 2002, the AFL debt will be an "unsustainable level of $47m".

So Brisbane and its supporters need to be embracing new and innovative ways of attracting new supporters and old supporters as well if the club is to prosper.

Given that the Lions now have more Melbourne members than Fitzroy in the last few years of the club's participation in the AFL, I'm sceptical that this move would go anywhere close to providing the sort of revenue you're talking about. I'm also worried about potential fall in Queensland-based membership as a result. There's already a small but growing perception in Brisbane that the Lions will do absolutely anything to get more Melbourne members at the expense of the club's identification with Brisbane. This move could actually LOSE the club members on a net basis.

In my view the club would be far better off renegotiating its exorbitant rent at the Gabba - $2.6 million, isn't it? More than this year's and last year's losses combined.

 

[Horace]

Whose membership figures are you quoting? As I understand it Brisbane has less than 5000 Melbourne based members. Fitzroy had in excess of 7000 members in its last few years.

Remember also that I suggested that an equal number of games should be played in Brisbane in the old Bears jumper. What I have suggested in my opinion gives something to everyone, not takes away anything from anyone. Why would Brisbane based members fall off if home and away games played in Melbourne, only, were in the old Fitzroy jumper?

It would still remain the Brisbane Lions football players out on the ground, irrespective of where they played.

If you don't like the concept of alternative strips reflecting the heritage of the two clubs, then why embrace having BBFFC on the back of the jumper as it is now?

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by Horace
Whose membership figures are you quoting? As I understand it Brisbane has less than 5000 Melbourne based members. Fitzroy had in excess of 7000 members in its last few years.

The Lions website carried this article in late June, including the following quote:

The Lions also enjoyed a monster increase in support in Melbourne, where the club’s membership more than doubled from 2112 to 4492. This is more paid up members than merger partner Fitzroy had in their last year as a separate entity in 1996.

Obviously these were not good times for Fitzroy but it's significant that Fitzroy supporters appear to be coming to the Lions in large numbers. The 2002 premiership should see another increase this year. The jumper change doesn't appear to be necessary for a lot of people, just not for some.

Originally posted by Horace
Remember also that I suggested that an equal number of games should be played in Brisbane in the old Bears jumper. What I have suggested in my opinion gives something to everyone, not takes away anything from anyone. Why would Brisbane based members fall off if home and away games played in Melbourne, only, were in the old Fitzroy jumper?

Fine, but most ex-Bears supporters do not want to see the return of the Bears - we have a successful team and are quite happy to live in the present and look to the future as a combined entity. As much as people loved the Bears, they weren't given the opportunity to give themselves much of a history. Just as they were starting to give something back to the fans, the merger happened.

I love my old Bears jumper, and I still watch some of my old Bears matches on tape. The past is a great place to visit, but of course you wouldn't want to live there.

Originally posted by Horace
It would still remain the Brisbane Lions football players out on the ground, irrespective of where they played.

Of course - but that argument applies just as much against you than for you. If the jumper means so little, what's stopping you supporting them now?

Originally posted by Horace
If you don't like the concept of alternative strips reflecting the heritage of the two clubs, then why embrace having BBFFC on the back of the jumper as it is now?

Who said I did? Personally I don't think it's necessary, but I can see that some people would - for them I can live with it. It's got nothing to do with alternative strips, though, it's there at every single game.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by Homer
I have emailed the Lions and the AFL to let them know my feelings on this matter.

I also emailed the AFL as soon as it was mentioned on their site.

The one thing they needed to know was how long all of us took to heal. It has taken ex-Bears and ex-Fitzroy supporters many years of in-house fighting and arguements to eventually heal and become one Club - The Brisbane Lions.

I also said that it was a cruel and thoughtless act to bring out the Fitzroy jumper for their amusement and for the AFL Commissions benefit without any thought to the players and supporters alike, like it was a circus arena.

Yet, here we are again, pressing home our feelings and taking the scab off the once open, but healing wound, all thanks to the AFL.