Brisbane to wear Fitzroy jumper in once off next year

[skilts]

This history, commemoration thing is BS. If Fitzroy had been important enough to enough people, it wouldn't have folded. It's too late now to resurrect Hayden Bunton and Chicken Smallhorn. In case no one has noticed, they're dead. If they weren't, I'm sure they'd be appreciative, or bored witless.

Horace, what a relief you're no longer involved in this thread. I note that your concern for the events in Bali haven't prevented you from pursuing this topic ad nauseum. To turn around and accuse others of lacking perspective defies definition.

BTW, I will hold you to no further involvement.

 

[Horace]

Skilts, your last post is pathetic and absolutely inappropriate in my view, especially comments about Hayden Bunton and Chicken Smallhorn and given the Bali events.

I am acutely aware of my involvement in keeping the thread going and have included myself (note the "how can we all still be posting about an issue like this ") in the comments about continuing the thread. What I am trying to say is that this issue does not justify the level of angst that it is, when compared to the events in Bali.

In having a go at the historical part you are having a go at Stocka, who I think does not deserve it. His last two posts are reasonable and well thought out. He is a staunch Brisbane Lions man and I have a great deal of respect for him. He and I had a running battle on the Fitzroy board last year, which culminated in both of us agreeing to disagree, but at the same time developing I believe a lot of respect and understanding for one anothers position. Stocka helped me then to understand a lot better the reasons for his and like minded Brisbane people and their reasons for supporting the Lions. (Come to think of it I think you joined in then in a reasonable manner.)

In all sincerity I really believe that I entered this thread with what was an innocuous enough post and not in anyway designed to hurt or stir up anyone. All people had to do then was just respond by saying "no we disagree" in a reasonable manner.

Yes I have posted again, which I said I wouldn't, but I will continue to reply if you have goes specifically at me. Let me retire gracefully and I promise I will leave you alone. But if you want to have goes at me then I will keep on returning until the cows come home.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by Horace
1. While most posts in this thread seem to be expressing their view that this thread is causing great hurt, re-opening of old wounds and division in the club, has it not occured to any of you that I as one old Royboy who now supports North is actually showing signs of coming around to a position of greater acceptance?

Of course. Your point being? I mean, great, but it's your decision, just as it was your decision to follow North. I respect that. But you can hardly expect the people who stuck with the merged club to reshape it in the image you require to bring you back.

Originally posted by Horace
2. Shouldn't that be something to encourage rather than discourage? (Yeah, I know, you'll say I am just one person, out of step with everyone, only go foward forget the past.)

I've no intention of saying that. It's great that you're considering coming around. For me though, if you're only going to do so once an unacceptable boundary is crossed, I'm afraid it's just not going to be. And that's sad, but you made your decision some years ago. I don't see any evidence at all that this will bring across huge numbers of former Fitzroy fans to the Lions. There's one thread on the topic on the Fitzroy board - it's hardly abuzz with excitement at the prospect.

Originally posted by Horace
3. Shouldn't the healing of as many wounds as possible be more important and the long term goal of everyone, rather than what colours the team might run out to play in?

To which I can only reply, if it's not that important, what's stopping you coming back now? Yes, healing of wounds is important - that's why we're desperate not to open the old ones up. You've been perfectly happy following North since 1997, good on you. Just as we're happy with our club.

Originally posted by Horace
4. Have you already lost sight of the fact that your club has just won back to back premierships and just how much joy this should be bringing you? Savour the moment for goodness sake, don't get yourselves all tied up over something like this surely.

Gosh, Horace, that'd slipped my mind. Of course not. But when my club is threatened, I defend it. Passionately. Just as I'm sure you did in 1996 and before.

Originally posted by Horace
5. Sure I can't understand how anyone might react to any post, but really in my view, and only my view, repeat only my view, it shouldn't matter if they play games in pink with purple spots (an interesting concept the wording of that). The real issue is that between both old clubs you now have one club that has tasted the ultimate success, not once but twice and back to back.

Again, great, then there's no problem with you returning to the club now if that's how you feel. Let's not stuff around here - you wouldn't be asking the club to do this if you didn't feel it would bring you back to the club. The club jumper matters. IT MATTERS.

Originally posted by Horace
6. I know this thread started before October 12, but really, how can we all still be posting about an issue like this when we are hearing the stories coming out of Bali, the pain, the suffering, the trauma and the possible deaths of maybe 100 to 200 innocent Australians, not to forget all the other nationalities and the locals who have suffered so terribly in this.

It's probably another reason why we're all a bit emotional at the moment and looking for distractions. But it doesn't mean that life doesn't go on.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by skilts
This history, commemoration thing is BS. If Fitzroy had been important enough to enough people, it wouldn't have folded.

Thank you for the voice of reason and truth, because that is the truth of it, in the cold hard light of day.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

I know some of us are very hurt by some comments made in this thread, but lets not combat hurt with hurt, hey? This path leads to ruin.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by Stocka
The Brisbane Lions situation will be closer to that of the Sydney Swans

No, it isn't. Our situation is nothing like the Swans.

The Brisbane Lions, are not Fitzroy relocated. Fitzroy do not exists anymore.

Just like The Bears, they do not exist anymore.

They both no longer exists, we haven't forgotten them and we honour both Clubs, but they do not exist anymore.......please understand this.

If this goes ahead, I see it as The Bears being treated like the poor relative, lacking in History so we do not receive the honour.

I also hold the AFL Commission to answer over this, they can not have everything. I gave no thought to throwing Fitzroy and their History out of the Competition and they have no right to call it up at their convenience and amusement because it suits them for the Federation year. Bad Luck, Fitzroy do not exist anymore.

.....and it wouldn't hurt to keep in mind, that there are a lot of boys running around in Lions jumpers today that played in a Bears jumper. Who knows how they would feel.

 

[Horace]

BrainOfMorbius, I haven't threatened your club. Go back to my original post. Nothing in that threatens the club. I never have and never will.

In talking about maybe encouraging and attracting back supporters whatever their origin, I am talking in the broad generic sense of anyone who might remain uncommitted. I am simply using my personal preferences to try to illustrate something that might appeal to me. For others there might be other things that lure them to the club.

From my point of view while North remains alive as a predominantly Melbourne based club, they will be my first chioce club. I support them now to a level equivalent to around 6 adult ordinary memberships.

In saying that North will remain my first choice does not mean I would not for reasons which appeal to me buy a membership in the Lions. At various stages in the past I have held memberships in 4 different clubs, including the Brisbane Lions.

The reasons for any individual supporting any club may be singular or many and varied and often very illogical. It is certainly not about boundaries, its much more personal and abstract and idiosyncratic.

A lot of you are reading much more into my original post (and certainly those since). My original post was slanted in part as a marketing idea to raise more revenue and get more members.

Maybe there is no-one left to come on board, but if that is the case then things are a bit grim for the financial future.

I must again state that I have not asked the club for anything. Why should I, I am not now a member of Brisbane. Someone posted that the old Fitzroy guernsey would be used in the Federation round and I merely suggested a variation of that concept.

When I made the comment about Brisbane playing in pink and purple spots, I was talking from the perspective of if I was a member of a club who made that decision as a marketing exercise in a bid to win new members, I would support it and support the club in their efforts to win new members and/or gain sponsorship dollars. Provided on the balance of occasions the club plays in its traditional colours, I do not have a problem with alternative strips which in some form or another represent the club. Fitzroys colours very much represent the traditional colours of the Brisbane Lions and in many cases that is the reason cited by current Brisbane (ex-Fitzroy) Lions members for them deciding to follow the lions. Equally the Bears colours also represent the traditional colours of the Lions.

Football clubs always need money and at times you have to be pragmatic in my view. When North wore that ridiculous orange jumper with the black shorts I went along and supported them because I believed it was part of the long term picture for survival. I hope they never do it again, but if a sponsor will throw in a few hundred thousand for a particular event and that helps from a budgetary point of view, then I will be there and support the concept.

I am now officially retracting my statement that I am out of this thread, because every time there is another post, I have to respond.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by Horace
BrainOfMorbius, I haven't threatened your club. Go back to my original post. Nothing in that threatens the club. I never have and never will.

In my view, your method of bringing back supporters threatens the club intrinsically.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by BrainOfMorbius
I know some of us are very hurt by some comments made in this thread, but lets not combat hurt with hurt, hey? This path leads to ruin.

I totally agree with you BrainOfMorbius.

I have been writing for many years, on the original Brisbane Lions site's Forum, while it was open.

Maverick and I go way back, with our many 'discussions' over our merge.

I can testify that we spent many years 'discussing' and 'fighting' over 'who was more hurt than who', or 'who lost more than who' and am so tired of it.

I kept out of this discussion because I just didn't want to go there anymore, but I made the mistake of reading the post, and here I am.

It is a sad and pointless discussion and it wounds more than you know, because this just shouldn't be happening.

We are the Brisbane Lions and we are back to back Premiers in the modern era.

Who, in such a young history can boast back to back Premierships. No one. Only us.

Time to be proud and time to stand up and be counted as a Brisbane Lions supporter.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by BrainOfMorbius
In my view, your method of bringing back supporters threatens the club intrinsically.

Ignore him BrainOfMorbius, and he just might go away, as he is not required here.

 

[Horace]

Brisgirl, no-one is saying that the Bears should not be recognised. Personally I think it would be great to see the Bears colours again. This is not an attack on anyone and it shouldn't be. Back in the days prior to the merger, I spent many an hour in front of the TV barracking for the Bears, in my long established role of always supporting the underdog. I am bloody idiot from the point of view of supporting underdogs, but thats life you can't help it sometimes

As BrainOfMorbius said "I know some of us are very hurt by some comments made in this thread, but lets not combat hurt with hurt, hey? This path leads to ruin." That is spot on.

Debate the issue but don't take things out of context.

 

[Horace]

BrainOfMorbius, in my view I am not threatening the club, but we are each entilted to our views.

 

[Lady Lawrence]

Originally posted by skilts
This history, commemoration thing is BS. If Fitzroy had been important enough to enough people, it wouldn't have folded.[/B]

Originally posted by BrisGirl


Thank you for the voice of reason and truth, because that is the truth of it, in the cold hard light of day.

Cold hard truth - facts hurt the most - The Brisbane Bears Football Club is no more, the Fitzroy Football Club is no more. The fact that so many turned their backs on the merger and walked away to barrack for the opposition shows the lack of importance for some.

For me personally seeing a Bears jumper running around at the Gabba will just open old wounds and bring up the what could have beens, what should have beens etc. A bitter sweet pill to swallow.

I have a question for any Fitzroy members on here. Were you a member before and are you now? The same for Bears "members". I believe the only people who have the right to make comment are "the members". Those that were still members at the time of the merger and that remain so.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by Horace
BrainOfMorbius, in my view I am not threatening the club, but we are each entilted to our views.

Horace, if you truly do not call risking the alienation of the club's largest membership base by far, with the biggest growth potential, "threatening the club" then you're welcome to that, of course, but forgive me if I don't tag along.

 

[cjwalkley]

Originally posted by Lady Lawrence


Cold hard truth - facts hurt the most - The Brisbane Bears Football Club is no more, the Fitzroy Football Club is no more. The fact that so many turned their backs on the merger and walked away to barrack for the opposition shows the lack of importance for some.

Understand where you are coming from, however you have to think of the players such as Kevin Murray, Bill Stephen, Laurie Serafini etc. who have embraced the merger, and one of the main reasons for this was that the Brisbane Lions promised to maintain the history and heritage of Fitzroy and the Bears. The people who have walked away aren't worth considering in this argument in my opinion.

For me personally seeing a Bears jumper running around at the Gabba will just open old wounds and bring up the what could have beens, what should have beens etc. A bitter sweet pill to swallow.

This is one aspect I hadn't really considered, but would it be the same in 10-15 years time? I guess I would see it as a chance to pay respect and honour the players who had played in that jumper, but to each their own.

I have a question for any Fitzroy members on here. Were you a member before and are you now? The same for Bears "members". I believe the only people who have the right to make comment are "the members". Those that were still members at the time of the merger and that remain so.

I guess seeing as I had been a Fitzroy member since 1990 (..when I turned 18 and moved to Melbourne), and a Brisbane Lions member the whole way through then I'm able to make a comment. There are certain things that occur with the merger that really disappoint me, none of which are the club's doing (..the stats used, seeing Merrett interviewed as supposedly the Brisbane Lions ex-leading goalkicker etc.). For the sake of the ex-Bears supporters I don't make a huge song and dance about it as I would see it as denigrating the history of the Bears. I mean in 10-15 years time the stats will all belong to Brisbane Lions players, and it doesn't change my love for the club. I see this as another of those issues that means a hell of a lot to some of the ex-Fitzroy supporters, and the way it is being condemned could look like a slur on the Fitzroy portion of the history.

 

[adey115]

I must say that a lot of things said on this post have somewhat stung me, almost to the point of disappearing off here for good - which i will reconsider.

One thing I would like to say though is that although both the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy don't exist in the cold light of day as described, I think that you can't forget the past. Otherwise you wouldn't take photographs, or for that matter purchase premiership memorabilia.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by cjwalkley
There are certain things that occur with the merger that really disappoint me, none of which are the club's doing (..the stats used, seeing Merrett interviewed as supposedly the Brisbane Lions ex-leading goalkicker etc.). For the sake of the ex-Bears supporters I don't make a huge song and dance about it as I would see it as denigrating the history of the Bears. I mean in 10-15 years time the stats will all belong to Brisbane Lions players, and it doesn't change my love for the club. I see this as another of those issues that means a hell of a lot to some of the ex-Fitzroy supporters, and the way it is being condemned could look like a slur on the Fitzroy portion of the history. [/B]

Welcome the the world of an ex-Bear supporter, I see Fitzroy history taking most of the acknowledgement of how we stand today with no mention of the Bears.

The way I see it, we heal and rejoice on being part of a new Club formed by two other Clubs that just happen to be the Bears and Fitzroy and we do nothing until all of the ex-Bears players that are still on the ground today have retired.

 

[BrisGirl]

Originally posted by adey115
I must say that a lot of things said on this post have somewhat stung me, almost to the point of disappearing off here for good

Could you point out 'what things' were said that stung you?

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by BrisGirl


Could you point out 'what things' were said that stung you?

Surely this isn't necessary?

 

[Horace]

I was a shareholder of Fitzroy since 1986 when shares were offered (more dollars worth than I care to think about) A member of Fitzroy through to and including 1996. Have continued to buy a membership of the Fitzroy Football Club ever since which helps to support the Fitzroy Redz. (Go Redz) A Brisbane Lions member in 1997. I lent money to the Fitzroy Club Hotel and had every cent of it repaid, plus interest. (Now that raises an ugly memory as to what Brisbane tried to do there. Don't start me on that! In fact that was one of the reasons that saw me switch to North)

I reckon I have paid my dues in so far as having an opinion to be honest.

As far as I am aware not being a Brisbane Lions member today should preclude me from having a view and posting on this board.

 

[cjwalkley]

Adey, don't throw in Bigfooty because of this. I for one have found it compelling, yet emotional to reread all the posts thus far. I would never have guessed that the proposal to wear a commemerative turn of the century jumper in a one off could elicit such a response. In a way it has been extremely good, as I have come to understand and respect the thoughts on this matter form a number of the ex Bears supporters.

I guess neither party knows exactly what they other has gone through over the past 6 years. The cultures of both supporters are extremely different, and you cannot build a new culture in 6 years, so there are guaranteed to be problems for a little while yet. Both sides have to be a little more understanding of each other, the ex Fitzroy supporters must understand that the Bears had seemingly built themselves to a position of relative strength in 96 and then they had their name, colours and song taken from them. The ex Bears fans have to take care with how they approach issues having to do with Fitzroy's history, it is a major aspect of the continuation of support of the Lions for a number of people. That said, I haven't read anything in this thread that would really offend me.

Discussion like this is good, as it does broaden our understanding of one another, and it should never cause deeper divisions. Take it for what it is, people who only want the best for the Brisbane Lions and are putting forward their opinions.

 

[Horace]

Just by the way, in the Victorian Cricket Association, last year, Fitzroy Doncaster won the premiership. Another Fitzroy team I barrack for. Maybe Brisbane people can see something in that for them too. Maybe thats irrelevant and maybe I am a lunatic, nevertheless it has a connection in the name at least.

This year the club has won 1 and lost 1 so far.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Originally posted by cjwalkley
I would never have guessed that the proposal to wear a commemerative turn of the century jumper in a one off could elicit such a response.

This makes me a little uncomfortable. Let me reiterate my own position - I have no objection whatsoever to the Lions wearing (as has been suggested) a replica turn-of-the-last-century Fitzroy guernsey for a round celebrating the origins of the league.

I think where I (and I think most others here) got concerned is when people started suggesting that Fitzroy guernsey circa 1996 should be worn, or that it should be worn for all games in Melbourne.

 

[cjwalkley]

Originally posted by BrainOfMorbius
This makes me a little uncomfortable. Let me reiterate my own position - I have no objection whatsoever to the Lions wearing (as has been suggested) a replica turn-of-the-last-century Fitzroy guernsey for a round celebrating the origins of the league.

I think where I (and I think most others here) got concerned is when people started suggesting that Fitzroy guernsey circa 1996 should be worn, or that it should be worn for all games in Melbourne.

I hadn't placed you in that argument BOM, I understand where you are coming from. But others such as Brisgirl and Danni are more fervent in their opposition to this, which is not a bad thing. Everybody has very different feelings about this, my personal feelings I think are pretty close to yours, but others are alot more passionate for and against. I certainly agree the circa 1996 jumper shouldn't be worn again.

 

[adey115]

I don't think its necessary to point everything out, but I do think certain suggestions about the Lions wearing the Fitzroy guernsey in every Melbourne game and the Bears guernsey in every Brisbane game were absolutely crazy/pointless/stupid. Also the comments that both the Bears and Fitzroy are dead I find disturbing - I believe both teams are represented magnificently every times the Lions run out, and thus aren't 'dead'. The spirit from both clubs remains alive. Its a matter of equilising that spirit I guess, and its my opinion that there will be certain occasions where one spirit should be represented a little more than the other, for a very short period of time, for the sake of retaining both spirits.

I've just thought of another example:

When Marcus Ashcroft retires (eventually - given his 3rd again in the B&F this year, that may well be in 2012!), I sure hope we acknowledge his enormous onfield contributions to the Brisbane Lions AND the Brisbane Bears. It would be amiss/wrong/stupid not to acknowledge his pre-merger history with the club. He will certainly go down as one of the great Bears and great Lions.

Alternatively when Martin Pike retires, he should be remembered as a dual premiership player for the Brisbane Lions, and a terrific one at that, and for being the final Fitzroy B&F. I'm sure his years at North won't get much of a mention, mainly because North weren't a part of the merger of the Bears and the Roys.

It does concern me that its been mentioned that the Bears history doesn't get acknowledged as much of the Fitzroy history. I've come into the merger with Roy colored-glasses on so to speak, so it can be difficult to see this. If this is the case (that the Bears history doesn't get equal mention) then its a scenario that should be rectified.

The idea of equal billing when it comes to history is best described and recognised by the Brisbane Lions B&F award being the Merrett-Murray Medal. It acknowledges that a great Brisbane Lions player should be compared to great champions from our past, one Bear and one Roy. Equally. Perhaps one day it may be called the Merrett-Murray-Lynch medal, to acknowledge a Bear champion, a Roy champion, and a Roy/Bear/Lion champion..... perhaps thats something for a different thread!

cheers.