Updated Bruce Lehrmann Pt2 * ACT Bar clears former DPP head Shane Drumgold of misconduct

[Kurve]

Here is PART 1

Historical Rape Allegation Against Fmr AG Christian Porter
The Alexander Matters matters

Just a reminder, this is the crime board and we need to be aware that there will be victims of crime either watching this thread or engaging in here from time to time. A degree of respect in all discussions is expected.

LINK TO TIMELINE
CJS INQUIRY
FINAL REPORT – BOARD OF INQUIRY – CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM
Joint media statement – Chief Minister and Attorney-General



FIONA BROWN - AFFIDAVIT

 

[Underarrest_]

As I said yesterday:



“Strongly suspect” is too strong a phrase in retrospect, but I’d give it a good possibility.

For any of us who have drunk to excess to the point of alcohol poisoning knows that staying still and vomiting are practically your only two options.

She was up and texting Dillaway at 8.15am. Even at 7pm that night she said to him that her hangover was "Pretty rough".

Higgins claimed that she vomited in Reynolds’ office and there is no reason to disbelieve her. The cleaner Ramos said the bathroom looked like it hadn't been used, but that doesn't mean anything other than Higgins likely cleaned up after herself well.

She was in there for 8.5 hours overall, which is one of the more peculiar aspects of the case. Hard to say what you, I or anyone else would have done in the same situation without being in the exact same shoes.

I imagine she couldn't find a window between nausea / vomiting and couldn't guarantee she wouldn't be sick in the Uber. Personally, I'd have GTFO of there at first opportunity, as I could have recovered in a park (it was a warm night) before finding a ride, but then I'm a 95kg bloke and not a skinny female in a white cocktail dress wearing heels who might be entering a second 'lion's den' in terms of personal safety.

I’m just really surprised they didn’t have an inkling that if B was lying there for 8 and a half and unable to get up from alcohol poisoning that maybe she was unable to have consensual sex and no one made it to PH before she left.
The security manager was surprised security were told not to report it to the AFP. I could maybe understand if they wanted to talk to B first but this didn’t happen because they got there 5 mins after B had left.

 

[Kurve]

I’m just really surprised they didn’t have an inkling that if B was lying there for 8 and a half and unable to get up from alcohol poisoning that maybe she was unable to have consensual sex and no one made it to PH before she left.
The security manager was surprised security were told not to report it to the AFP. I could maybe understand if they wanted to talk to B first but this didn’t happen because they got there 5 mins after B had left.

It could have been kept real discreet and a doctor called to go in and check on her.

As if they don't have a doctor somewhere around anyway they can call on for a house visit.

 

[Festerz]

I’m just really surprised they didn’t have an inkling that if B was lying there for 8 and a half and unable to get up from alcohol poisoning that maybe she was unable to have consensual sex and no one made it to PH before she left.
The security manager was surprised security were told not to report it to the AFP. I could maybe understand if they wanted to talk to B first but this didn’t happen because they got there 5 mins after B had left.

Exactly.

This stuff about hindsight is just errant nonsense.

We are talking about 2019 here not 1969 and leaving a young woman heavily intoxicated and 'passed out' alone on a couch for hours in the early morning hours in a workplace doesn't meet the most basic of OH&S rules, let alone what should be expected of trained security guards in the Federal Parliament House.

 

[Lady O]

I’m just really surprised they didn’t have an inkling that if B was lying there for 8 and a half and unable to get up from alcohol poisoning that maybe she was unable to have consensual sex and no one made it to PH before she left.
The security manager was surprised security were told not to report it to the AFP. I could maybe understand if they wanted to talk to B first but this didn’t happen because they got there 5 mins after B had left.

She had alcohol poisoning?? Who diagnosed this?

 

[Underarrest_]

She had alcohol poisoning?? Who diagnosed this?

Exactly, who would know why B couldn’t get herself up, dressed and home for all that time.
Could have had internal injuries for all anyone knew.

 

[Lady O]

Exactly, who would know why B couldn’t get herself up, dressed and home for all that time.
Could have had internal injuries for all anyone knew.

I think she was tired and hung over. It happens.

 

[Underarrest_]

I think she was tired and hung over. It happens.

She was drunk according to security, so sex is not consensual in any sense but the cleaners were asked to look for condoms.

 

[Lady O]

She was drunk according to security, so sex is not consensual in any sense but the cleaners were asked to look for condoms.

No, not quite right. Being drunk does not mean you cannot give consent.

 

[Underarrest_]

No, not quite right. Being drunk does not mean you cannot give consent.

A person is not legally able to consent to sex when they are so drunk or high that they don't really know what is going on. Alcohol and drugs can cloud your judgement and you might say 'yes' to something that you don't really want to do or might not have done if you were sober.
I’m sure members of Parliament who fund the sexual assault services are aware of this.

 

[Festerz]

A person is not legally able to consent to sex when they are so drunk or high that they don't really know what is going on. Alcohol and drugs can cloud your judgement and you might say 'yes' to something that you don't really want to do or might not have done if you were sober.
I’m sure members of Parliament who fund the sexual assault services are aware of this.

Correct.

How many times do the Bruce Lehrmann defenders need to be educated on the subject of informed consent? And this is just a disgraceful way to describe a rape victim btw:





Justice Lee found that, on the balance of probabilities, sexual intercourse did occur between Lehrmann and Higgins; however, Higgins was “passive” and therefore could not provide informed consent to sex because of her high level of intoxication.

THAT is why found that 'Bruce Lehrmann r*ped Brittany Higgins'

The truth defence to the defamation claim was proven because, on the balance of probabilities, his Honour found that:

(1) sexual intercourse occurred;

(2) Ms Higgins did not consent; and

(3) Mr Lehrmann was reckless as to whether or not Ms Higgins was consenting.- In making this finding his Honour relied on extensive audio-visual recordings, statements by Mr Lehrmann, Ms Higgins and other witnesses in the immediate aftermath of the assault and Ms Higgins evidence in court, which his Honour stated that he found compelling.

As sexual assault survivor groups have said, Justice Lee has delivered a deeply trauma-informed judgment in which his Honour has actively resisted and challenged the evaluation of the credibility of Ms Higgins as a victim-witness of sexual violence through the lens of rape myths.

How many times does this need to be repeated in this thread before the same posters stop with their victim blaming?

That these views are still out there in our community is frightening.

 

[Lady O]

A person is not legally able to consent to sex when they are so drunk or high that they don't really know what is going on. Alcohol and drugs can cloud your judgement and you might say 'yes' to something that you don't really want to do or might not have done if you were sober.
I’m sure members of Parliament who fund the sexual assault services are aware of this.

Sure, but a person who is drunk is not always "so drunk or high they don't know what is going on". BH went willingly with him. The security guards did not believe she had slurred speech or unable to communicate, or she would not have been given entry to PH. BL denies sex occurred. If she was so drunk or high she didn't know what was going on, how did she even know if sex occurred? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Kurve]

Sure, but a person who is drunk is not always "so drunk or high they don't know what is going on". BH went willingly with him. The security guards did not believe she had slurred speech or unable to communicate, or she would not have been given entry to PH. BL denies sex occurred. If she was so drunk or high she didn't know what was going on, how did she even know if sex occurred? You can't have it both ways.

View attachment 2159289

Higgins had passed out, she woke up and he was on top of her.

End of.

 

[GrayRanga]

Sure, but a person who is drunk is not always "so drunk or high they don't know what is going on". BH went willingly with him. The security guards did not believe she had slurred speech or unable to communicate, or she would not have been given entry to PH. BL denies sex occurred. If she was so drunk or high she didn't know what was going on, how did she even know if sex occurred? You can't have it both ways.

View attachment 2159289

Welcome to 1965!

"Good" God fearing girls don't get themselves in that position because "good" girls don't get drunk and leave themselves to the mercy of red blooded Conservative Liberal voting males who are just obeying their natural God given manly urges.

"Good" girls don't lie drunk and comotose naked on a Couch with their genitalia exposed to the world to see if they happened to slip slightly from the impeccable standards of 1965.

"Good" girls if they have fallen from grace demurely cover themselves up and never mention it again in fear that they will be considered "bad" girls and never find a place in Conservative polite society and not not marry well.

The rumours will haunt them forever either way

Lee made the judgement that on the balance of probabilities she was sexually assaulted without giving explicit consent.

Unless you have a personal reason to dispute the findings of the Court after hearing the evidence and testimony provided, why don't you accept that the Court outweighs your lay opinion

 

[FIGJAM]

I’m just really surprised they didn’t have an inkling that if B was lying there for 8 and a half and unable to get up from alcohol poisoning that maybe she was unable to have consensual sex and no one made it to PH before she left.
The security manager was surprised security were told not to report it to the AFP. I could maybe understand if they wanted to talk to B first but this didn’t happen because they got there 5 mins after B had left.

She had alcohol poisoning?? Who diagnosed this?

Exactly, who would know why B couldn’t get herself up, dressed and home for all that time.
Could have had internal injuries for all anyone knew.

Nobody has diagnosed her as having alcohol poisoning, but I put it forward as a potential synopsis an all too familiar state of being.

We are talking about 2019 here not 1969 and leaving a young woman heavily intoxicated and 'passed out' alone on a couch for hours in the early morning hours in a workplace doesn't meet the most basic of OH&S rules....

Yes, which is why I and many others agree with Lee's verdict. In its totality, including the rape verdict and the stupidity of the cover-up angle.

Only shills keep chasing the latter...

 

[Festerz]

2024 and there are still people posting on an Australian crime social media forum who are ignorant of the term 'informed consent' as it relates to the specific circumstances of this thread.

Can a Person Consent to Sexual Activity Whilst Intoxicated?

A person cannot consent to sexual activity if he or she is “so affected by alcohol or another drug as to be incapable of consenting”.

www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au

 

[Lady O]

Welcome to 1965!

"Good" God fearing girls don't get themselves in that position because "good" girls don't get drunk and leave themselves to the mercy of red blooded Conservative Liberal voting males who are just obeying their natural God given manly urges.

"Good" girls don't lie drunk and comotose naked on a Couch with their genitalia exposed to the world to see if they happened to slip slightly from the impeccable standards of 1965.

"Good" girls if they have fallen from grace demurely cover themselves up and never mention it again in fear that they will be considered "bad" girls and never find a place in Conservative polite society and not not marry well.

The rumours will haunt them forever either way

Lee made the judgement that on the balance of probabilities she was sexually assaulted without giving explicit consent.

Unless you have a personal reason to dispute the findings of the Court after hearing the evidence and testimony provided, why don't you accept that the Court outweighs your lay opinion

In the absence of any actual evidence for rape, you can't say "beyond reasonable doubt" that she was r*ped. A person who apparently is too drunk to know what she is doing is not a good witness. If she had been to a doctor (as she said she did) or a rape support service (which I believe are available in ACT) and/or there was some actual evidence of rape, I would agree with you. However, you can't convict someone when there is only the word of someone who does not remember most of what happened that night. It's not uncommon for people who are "very drunk" to have dreams/psychosis/hallucinations.

 

[FIGJAM]

In the absence of any actual evidence for rape, you can't say "beyond reasonable doubt" that she was r*ped. A person who apparently is too drunk to know what she is doing is not a good witness. If she had been to a doctor (as she said she did) or a rape support service (which I believe are available in ACT) and/or there was some actual evidence of rape, I would agree with you. However, you can't convict someone when there is only the word of someone who does not remember most of what happened that night. It's not uncommon for people who are "very drunk" to have dreams/psychosis/hallucinations.

True on the bolded, but then it’s even more common for Bruce Lehrmann to have non-consensual sex with an unconscious woman.

 

[Lady O]

True on the bolded, but then it’s even more common for Bruce Lehrmann to have non-consensual sex with an unconscious woman.

Really?

 

[Kurve]

Yes, which is why I and many others agree with Lee's verdict. In its totality, including the rape verdict and the stupidity of the cover-up angle.

Only shills keep chasing the latter...

Nobody needs to be a shill to have an interest in a cover up angle, beyond that of which Lee barely scratched the surface.

 

[FIGJAM]

Nobody needs to be a shill to have an interest in a cover up angle, beyond that of which Lee barely scratched the surface.

I guess you don't have to be a Labor Party shill like Festerz (he's currently defending Dan Andrews on the SR&P Board and doesn't even live in Victoria! ) to have an interest in the 'cover up' angle.

Your statement however that Lee "barely scratched the surface" after weeks and weeks of a trial whereby the motif was "let sunlight be the best disinfectant", is seriously disrespectful.

I watched most of it.

Lee didn't ignore the chain of events leading up to 'the clean' and nor did Collins and Chrysanthou.

It was tested in court, over an extended period and referenced in the judgement.

And don't ever, ever forget that the ultimate culmination of this 'cover up', was Brown and Reynolds taking Higgins to the AFP. As far as 'cover ups' go, it was the shittest in the history of all 'cover ups'!

 

[Kurve]

I guess you don't have to be a Labor Party shill like Festerz (he's currently defending Dan Andrews on the SR&P Board and doesn't even live in Victoria! ) to have an interest in the 'cover up' angle.

Your statement however that Lee "barely scratched the surface" after weeks and weeks of a trial whereby the motif was "let sunlight be the best disinfectant", is seriously disrespectful.

I watched most of it.

Lee didn't ignore the chain of events leading up to 'the clean' and nor did Collins and Chrysanthou.

It was tested in court, over an extended period and referenced in the judgement.

And don't ever, ever forget that the ultimate culmination of this 'cover up', was Brown and Reynolds taking Higgins to the AFP. As far as 'cover ups' go, it was the shittest in the history of all 'cover ups'!

Don't drag conflicts in here from other boards.

I've already stated my position and shouldn't have to keep repeating it. Lee did not examine all the witnesses on the night and going in to the next few days.

You don't get to tell people what they can and can't say, nor how to think.

 

[FIGJAM]

Don't drag conflicts in here from other boards.

My sincerest of apologies.

I've already stated my position and shouldn't have to keep repeating it. Lee did not examine all the witnesses on the night and going in to the next few days.

And I’ve already started mine; which is that every opportunity to test this was afforded to there hyper expensive lawyers at three trials (two of which the cover up angle was relevant).

It was tested to a reasonable degree and wasn’t pressed by the lawyers for a reason (ie. it was a well documented chain of events and they all acted in Higgins’ best interests).

You don't get to tell people what they can and can't say, nor how to think.

You know full well that I’m all about freedom of speech, so I would never do that. Telling people what to think is more the domain of your left wing shills…

 

[Kurve]

And I’ve already started mine; which is that every opportunity to test this was afforded to there hyper expensive lawyers at three trials (two of which the cover up angle was relevant).

It was tested to a reasonable degree and wasn’t pressed by the lawyers for a reason (ie. it was a well documented chain of events and they all acted in Higgins’ best interests).

I call BS on all of that.

You know full well that I’m all about freedom of speech, so I would never do that. Telling people what to think is more the domain of your left wing shills…

When you post things like "Don't ever, ever forget ... " blah blah blah I know I'm probably on the right track.

 

[FIGJAM]

When you post things like "Don't ever, ever forget ... " blah blah blah I know I'm probably on the right track.

I’m engaging in a discussion on a “niche” forum and trying to make a point.

There’s a fair difference between that and telling people how and what to think.

 

[Kurve]

I’m engaging in a discussion on a “niche” forum and trying to make a point.

There’s a fair difference between that and telling people how and what to think.

We can agree to disagree.