Society/Culture Can we please stop equating the risk posed by left wing extremists with that of right wing extremists?

[Cap]

according to some on here

the greens

I've been assured we need to be worried about Antifa and BLM (I assume they can't bring themselves to say black likes matter).

A local journo also equated the recent extinction rebellion protests to the Jan 6 attacks on the capital in the US.

 

[Gough]

I've been assured we need to be worried about Antifa and BLM (I assume they can't bring themselves to say black likes matter).

A local journo also equated the recent extinction rebellion protests to the Jan 6 attacks on the capital in the US.

XR are the bogeymen here.

 

[Cap]

XR are the bogeymen here.

They have me extremely worried for my commute time.

 

[Frank Bunn]

So it's religious groups and for right groups making up most of the list.

Here's the current list. 26 fundamentalist Islamic groups and 3 far right groups.

Australian National Security Website

The Australian Government's first priority is to keep our community safe from people who seek to do us harm.

www.nationalsecurity.gov.au

 

[Cap]

Here's the current list. 26 fundamentalist Islamic groups and 3 far right groups.

Australian National Security Website

The Australian Government's first priority is to keep our community safe from people who seek to do us harm.

www.nationalsecurity.gov.au

29 still feels both not many, but too many at the same time

 

[Chief]

Here's the current list. 26 fundamentalist Islamic groups and 3 far right groups.

Australian National Security Website

The Australian Government's first priority is to keep our community safe from people who seek to do us harm.

www.nationalsecurity.gov.au

So, fascists.

Does it say anything about relative size or ability of each?

 

[Malifice]

Here's the current list. 26 fundamentalist Islamic groups and 3 far right groups.

Australian National Security Website

The Australian Government's first priority is to keep our community safe from people who seek to do us harm.

www.nationalsecurity.gov.au

ASIO addressed this:

Greens Senator David Shoebridge questioned the ASIO director on why only three of the 29 'listed' terror organisations are right-wing groups, given the 70-30 split.

When a terror organisation becomes 'listed', it becomes illegal to be a member of such a group, or provide funding or resources to it. The first right-wing group to be listed was the 'Sonnenkrieg Division', a UK-based group, which was listed in 2019.

Mr Burgess said the right-wing groups are often "smarter" and avoid publicly advocating terrorism, which would see them listed.

"To be listed, that group has to actually promote and advocate acts of terrorism. So it's a high penalty with a high threshold, if you don't cross that threshold you don't get penalised and listed," he said.

"And the reason we are where we are is those (listed) groups have actually pushed and advocated for acts of terrorism, where other groups are sadly smarter and don't do that publicly.

'Awful but lawful': Neo-Nazi groups becoming more emboldened, ASIO boss warns

Or in other words recruiting people to be Nazis is fine.

As long as you don't urge people to do actual Nazi shit (i.e. advocate violence).

Neo Nazi and Far Right-wing groups have pretty much always been very careful to try and present themselves with a veneer of plausible deniability. They're smart enough to know openly advocating burning down Synagogues, mass killings, concentration camps and armed violence against the State will see them listed as Terror organizations.

Islamist groups OTOH trip over the fact that they have to religiously justify similar acts of violence in order to be credible, and once religiously justified, it becomes a commandment of God. They usually don't hide their true goals at all, and more often than not openly call for violence as a religious duty.

 

[Malifice]

Hopefully we can catch some of the Nazi flogs in other ways, seeing as a significant number of the Far Right Islamophobes from a decade or so ago that were bitching about how evil Islam was, and how it was incompatible with 'Western culture' and so forth, are increasingly converting to Islam:

Australian anti-Islamic activist Shermon Burgess becomes the latest far-right figure to convert to Islam

Across the world there's a trend of far-right figures — many of them prominent Islamophobes — converting to Islam to counter rising 'wokeness'.

Australian anti-Islamic activist Shermon Burgess becomes the latest far-right figure to convert to Islam

Last fall, Arthur Wagner was part of something remarkable: His political party, the anti-Islam, anti-immigrant Alternative für Deutschland, entered the Bundestag, becoming the first far-right party in the body since the 1950s. This year, Wagner has done something even more remarkable: He has converted to Islam and left AfD.

The Strange Cases of Anti-Islam Politicians Turned Muslims

As hilarious as the above is, I'm not surprised. Both ideologies are far right wing and share a lot of similarities (hostility towards women, Jews, LGBTI+, reactionary and conservative social positions, advocating for totalitarian State that favors the status and rights of men above all, sanctions violence and slavery etc).

Both are also built on belief in the existence of fictional social constructs as well ('Race' for the Nazis, and 'God' for the Fundies).

 

[Frank Bunn]

So, fascists.

In Mike Burgess's 2023 Annual Threat Assessment he makes this point -

all too often commentators fail to distinguish between extreme views and violent extremism. One can lead to the other, but that does not mean they are the same thing. It takes careful, nuanced work to disentangle groups and individuals that will engage in violence, from groups and individuals that may have views that are awful – but still lawful.​

​

It is equally critical to understand that every ideologically motivated extremist is not automatically a left-wing or right-wing extremist. There is a cohort of individuals motivated by a toxic cocktail of conspiracies, grievances and anti-authority beliefs. It is neither helpful nor accurate to reflexively assign these individuals to a place on the political spectrum.​

Does it say anything about relative size or ability of each?

ASIO has lowered the national domestic terrorism threat level from PROBABLE to POSSIBLE. It reflects the lowering of tensions in the Middle East and also the reduction in anti-authority sentiments after Covid restrictions have been removed.

From the earlier article cited, it seems that ASIO isn't too concerned about the Neo-Nazi groups per se, but there could be a threat from individuals acting alone, frustrated with a lack of action from the group they are part of. You can bet that ASIO has infiltrated these groups and is keeping a close eye on anyone who might represent a threat.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Also, ASIO's principal security concern and priority is now about espionage and foreign interference.

Australia is part of the most dynamic region in the world – the Indo-Pacific. The region is home to some of the planet’s fastest growing populations, fastest growing economies and fastest military build-ups. The Indo-Pacific is home to great power competition, with the power of the United States, our primary ally, contested by the rise of China, and multiple, significant territorial disputes including the South China Sea, Kashmir, the Taiwan straits and the Korean peninsula. There is much more to the Indo-Pacific than this sketch but suffice to say ASIO is following the dynamics because they drive security issues. In particular, they are driving a thirst for inside information and an appetite for covert influence from countries inside and outside the region.​

​

Multiple nations are using espionage and foreign interference to advance their interests and undermine Australia’s.​

​

They are using espionage to covertly understand Australia’s politics and decision-making, our alliances and partnerships, and our economic and policy priorities.​

​

They are using espionage to recruit to their own cause elected officials, public servants, well placed individuals in business, and leaders in the community.​

​

They are using espionage to identify vulnerabilities in essential services and systems that could be exploited in the future, and to slow our military modernisation.​

​

They are using espionage to steal Australia’s intellectual property.​

​

They are using foreign interference to shape political and business decision-making to their advantage.​

​

They are using foreign interference to monitor, threaten and even harm members of diaspora communities.​

​

They are using foreign interference to manipulate messages among communities, through foreign language media, and by establishing community organisations.​

​

Some of the governments doing these things are considered friends. Others are authoritarian regimes with values very different to ours.​

​

Was there a large grey mammal with tusks and a trunk in the room? It reminded me of this sketch

 

[Malifice]

It seems that ASIO isn't too concerned about the Neo-Nazi groups per se, but there could be a threat from individuals acting alone, frustrated with a lack of action from the group they are part of.

These groups actively recruit people, condition them into being Nazis (racists and antisemites, convinced of a Jewish plot to undermine the White race and take over the world, and of the existence of an existential crisis to subjugate and exterminate white people), and then get to sit back and shrug when said Nazi recruit shitbag goes out and murders people because of the hatred espoused by the very ideology they inculcated in him in the first place?

That's like saying 'Its OK to recruit people into your fundamentalist Salaffi Jihaidi sect, as long as the murders those recruits then go and commit afterwards are just lone wolf attacks when they get sick to death of your group not doing anything about the 'evil infidels'.

You're OK with groups being allowed to actively recruit people and to spread the ideology espoused by Brenton Tarrant, Anders Brevic and Adolf Hitler?

What could possibly go wrong!

 

[Malifice]

Also, ASIO's principal security concern and priority is now about espionage and foreign interference.

Yeah. Russian misinformation, convincing incels to embrace Nazism and other far right-wing bullshit and go out on mass killing sprees.

Like we've seen time, and time and time again.

 

[Chief]

It is neither helpful nor accurate to reflexively assign these individuals to a place on the political spectrum.

I'll remember that the next time I am running ASIO.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Yeah. Russian misinformation, convincing incels to embrace Nazism and other far right-wing bullshit and go out on mass killing sprees.

Like we've seen time, and time and time again.

Last time I checked Russia wasn't Indo-Pacific.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'll remember that the next time I am running ASIO.

If he was being very generous and had had a long lunch the head of ASIO might call you a 'commentator'.

 

[Chief]

If he was being very generous and had had a long lunch the head of ASIO might call you a 'commentator'.

I do not know what you are expecting here. You've taken a comment aimed at people with, you know, actual influence over an actual audience and attempted to shame me with it. Good work, I suppose? Do we applaud you now?

Calling Nazis and fundamental religious extremists "fascists" isn't what he was talking about. Obviously they are fascists. I haven't read his whole spiel so I don't know what he was talking about in particular.

 

[Malifice]

Last time I checked Russia wasn't Indo-Pacific.

The Russians are the main spreaders of misinformation and Neo Nazi shit.

From anti-vaxx shit, Qanon, Sov Cit and agitating Incels to engage in mass murder, they're up to their necks in it.

Of course other State (and non State) agencies and entities are into it as well.

Why are you back simping for Neo-Nazis and RWNJ mass killers by the way?

 

[sdfc]

The Russians are the main spreaders of misinformation and Neo Nazi s**t.

From anti-vaxx s**t, Qanon, Sov Cit and agitating Incels to engage in mass murder, they're up to their necks in it.

Of course other State (and non State) agencies and entities are into it as well.

Why are you back simping for Neo-Nazis and RWNJ mass killers by the way?

The western media were breathless in their reporting that Russia blew up its own pipeline and shelled a nuclear facility it is occupying. A complicit media is a bigger threat to western democracy than nazis are.

 

[Chief]

Russia blew up its own pipeline

They did.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Last time I checked Russia wasn't Indo-Pacific.

Russia does has a Pacific Coast

 

[Cap]

The western media were breathless in their reporting that Russia blew up its own pipeline and shelled a nuclear facility it is occupying. A complicit media is a bigger threat to western democracy than nazis are.

Unfortunately the biggest threat to democracy is more about the wilful ignorance of the population and its choice between liberty for all and liberty for people who look like them.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Here's the current list. 26 fundamentalist Islamic groups and 3 far right groups.

Australian National Security Website

The Australian Government's first priority is to keep our community safe from people who seek to do us harm.

www.nationalsecurity.gov.au

No lefties in there, just righties and islamist, who are also righties.

 

[Frank Bunn]

The Russians are the main spreaders of misinformation and Neo Nazi s**t.

Unless you have some intelligence that ASIO doesn't possess Russia doesn't seem to be one of the main security threats to Australia. Burgess doesn't mention them once in his Annual Threat Assessment. There's veiled Indo-Pacific references to China which of course is what he's referring to when he says

Multiple nations are using espionage and foreign interference to advance their interests and undermine Australia’s.​

They are using espionage to covertly understand Australia’s politics and decision-making, our alliances and partnerships, and our economic and policy priorities.​

They are using espionage to recruit to their own cause elected officials, public servants, well placed individuals in business, and leaders in the community.​

They are using espionage to identify vulnerabilities in essential services and systems that could be exploited in the future, and to slow our military modernisation.​

They are using espionage to steal Australia’s intellectual property.​

They are using foreign interference to shape political and business decision-making to their advantage.​

They are using foreign interference to monitor, threaten and even harm members of diaspora communities.​

They are using foreign interference to manipulate messages among communities, through foreign language media, and by establishing community organisations.​

Some of the governments doing these things are considered friends. Others are authoritarian regimes with values very different to ours.​

I was surprised he didn't talk of Russia in terms of hacking. There have been several attacks on Australian corporations such as Optus and Medibank Private. It's not clear whether they are state sponsored or by organised criminal gangs.

 

[Malifice]

Unless you have some intelligence that ASIO doesn't possess Russia doesn't seem to be one of the main security threats to Australia.

I agree China is the main security threat to Australia domestically. The Russians target the USA (catching us up in it by extension).

Most of the cooker anti-vaxx misinformation from State actors comes from the Russians for example.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Why are so many ‘classical liberals’ frothing over the anti cultural Marxist commentary of noted libertarian Vladimir Putin?


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