Opinion Can't kick, can't play football

[El_Scorcho]

Teams with a good system look like they have good skills because they know where the options will be and the entire side can be drilled to hit targets under that system reliably. We are the least drilled team in the AFL in terms of ball movement.

If you have a couple of dodgy kicks, it might be skills. If it's the whole side, it's not skills. We didn't really unluckily draft heaps of poorly skilled players.

 

[VineValerian]

Do we really have a weak midfield? And what does weak mean?

Lack of center clearances, lack of inside 50's from center clearances, kicking efficiency from center clearances?
What percentage of what midfielders do is the center clearance work and what percentage is stoppages and what percentage is simply team defense support?

Perhaps our midfield appears to perform poorly because they bomb so much to outnumbered forwards?

I still think our problem is our forward line.

Weak - or meek?

 

[Pablo Escobar]

I agree our game plan definitely contributes but even allowing for that a number of our mids have very poor techniques which will hinder us for a number of years. A better game plan will help but there will be crucial times in big games where this weakness will cost us wins. How would we feel if Wines, Gray, Boak etc we’re having a shot to win a final. A game plan might get us part of the way but skills will finish the job.

 

[TeeKray]

Teams with a good system look like they have good skills because they know where the options will be and the entire side can be drilled to hit targets under that system reliably. We are the least drilled team in the AFL in terms of ball movement.

If you have a couple of dodgy kicks, it might be skills. If it's the whole side, it's not skills. We didn't really unluckily draft heaps of poorly skilled players.

I've been to training and seen them do light ball movement, circle workish type stuff. They can all kick a football. It's the system.

 

[Spadge]

I've been to training and seen them do light ball movement, circle workish type stuff. They can all kick a football. It's the system.

under no pressure

 

[TeeKray]

under no pressure

The system is what puts them under so much pressure all the time.

 

[Contested Marx]

Teams with a good system look like they have good skills because they know where the options will be and the entire side can be drilled to hit targets under that system reliably. We are the least drilled team in the AFL in terms of ball movement.

If you have a couple of dodgy kicks, it might be skills. If it's the whole side, it's not skills. We didn't really unluckily draft heaps of poorly skilled players.

I think you're onto something.

What I noticed the most when we played West Coast in 2016 (I was sitting on the wing where I was able to view more stoppages). Every single clearance ruck tap that went to say Priddis he would kick to the same general spot, where Josh Kennedy seemed to appear.

It wasn't just Priddis, but for example. He's not the quickest player and most of his kicks were fairly rushed. But he hardly missed a forward target even without having a moment to look ahead. Even kicks around the corner.

(I could be totally mis-remembering this game, given that i tend to block losses out, and West Coast losses blur into one)

So I asked myself how did they manage to land it on the chest of JK every time? the only conclusion was that

a) the mids knew where the forwards would be and would just put it there
b) the forwards knew where the mids would kick it to and just lead to there

I could be wrong, or this could only be a small portion of the time, given that we appear to be abysmal at kicking not just from centre clearances, in fact it's more obvious when we intercept mark across the backline and go forward to turn it over again.

So yes, I suspect skills might be lacking in one area, but surely hitting a target is much easier when you are pre-informed on where the target is likely to be.

I shall watch this more closely this evening, in the meantime I invite criticism.

 

[El Zorro]

a) the mids knew where the forwards would be and would just put it there
b) the forwards knew where the mids would kick it to and just lead to there

Doesn't sound very complex, does it?

 

[Enviable Tradition]

I think you're onto something.

What I noticed the most when we played West Coast in 2016 (I was sitting on the wing where I was able to view more stoppages). Every single clearance ruck tap that went to say Priddis he would kick to the same general spot, where Josh Kennedy seemed to appear.

It wasn't just Priddis, but for example. He's not the quickest player and most of his kicks were fairly rushed. But he hardly missed a forward target even without having a moment to look ahead. Even kicks around the corner.

(I could be totally mis-remembering this game, given that i tend to block losses out, and West Coast losses blur into one)

So I asked myself how did they manage to land it on the chest of JK every time? the only conclusion was that

a) the mids knew where the forwards would be and would just put it there
b) the forwards knew where the mids would kick it to and just lead to there

I could be wrong, or this could only be a small portion of the time, given that we appear to be abysmal at kicking not just from centre clearances, in fact it's more obvious when we intercept mark across the backline and go forward to turn it over again.

So yes, I suspect skills might be lacking in one area, but surely hitting a target is much easier when you are pre-informed on where the target is likely to be.

I shall watch this more closely this evening, in the meantime I invite criticism.

Yes but that wouldn't be 'complete football' would it.

I mean sure it might win games but it is so boring and predictable. How will the coaches stroke their egos.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[HaroldOliver]

I think you're onto something.

What I noticed the most when we played West Coast in 2016 (I was sitting on the wing where I was able to view more stoppages). Every single clearance ruck tap that went to say Priddis he would kick to the same general spot, where Josh Kennedy seemed to appear.

It wasn't just Priddis, but for example. He's not the quickest player and most of his kicks were fairly rushed. But he hardly missed a forward target even without having a moment to look ahead. Even kicks around the corner.

(I could be totally mis-remembering this game, given that i tend to block losses out, and West Coast losses blur into one)

So I asked myself how did they manage to land it on the chest of JK every time? the only conclusion was that

a) the mids knew where the forwards would be and would just put it there
b) the forwards knew where the mids would kick it to and just lead to there

I could be wrong, or this could only be a small portion of the time, given that we appear to be abysmal at kicking not just from centre clearances, in fact it's more obvious when we intercept mark across the backline and go forward to turn it over again.

So yes, I suspect skills might be lacking in one area, but surely hitting a target is much easier when you are pre-informed on where the target is likely to be.

I shall watch this more closely this evening, in the meantime I invite criticism.

The Crows do exactly the same thing - it is part of their game plan.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Yes but that wouldn't be 'complete football' would it.

I mean sure it might win games but it is so boring and predictable. How will the coaches stroke their egos.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

In fairness I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone at the club use that term. That’s mostly Janus stroking his own ... ‘ego’.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/spor...t/news-story/783790071a108c432577f9b3c6af461b
CHAD Wingard says Port Adelaide “can’t pinpoint’’ why it is such a bad kicking team. “We’re not the most elite kicking side but we’re not sure why,’’ the dual All-Australian said. “A few boys are a bit down on their kicking, but we’re still working on it. “The stats don’t lie. It’s something we can’t drastically improve overnight.” After an off-season where it recruited highly-skilled players, including elite kick Jack Watts from Melbourne and Steven Motlop from Geelong, and spent countless hours at training trying to improve its kicking, the Power has, surprisingly, gone backwards this year.

.......
Bad kicking cost it last year’s elimination final against West Coast when it booted 10.16 to the Eagles’ 12.6 to lose by two points following an after-the-siren, extra-time goal to Luke Shuey. Port’s horror night in front of the sticks followed a wayward season in which it had a poor kick rating of -1.1 per cent — ranked 16th in the competition. This season, the Power, which plays premier Richmond in a mid-season blockbuster at Adelaide Oval on Friday night, has plummeted to 17th with a -2.1 per cent kick rating. Only struggling Gold Coast (-4.8 per cent), which has lost five consecutive games, is below it on the kicking table.
......
“Kicking efficiency doesn’t take into account the degree of difficulty of the kick. Kick rating does,’’ Champion Data AFL analyst Daniel Hoyne said. “If you're under physical pressure and you’re trying to kick long to a guy on the lead, your expected hit rate might be 38 per cent. “If you hit that kick, you’re a +62 per cent. If you miss that kick, you're -38 per cent.’’ All player numbers are compared to the AFL average. Key forward Charlie Dixon (-16.1 per cent), former Lion Tom Rockliff (-14.2) and Wingard (-7.6) are the Power’s worst general kicks this season. When it comes to goalkicking, man mountain Dixon, who has booted 7.13, is in a league of his own. His shot at goal rating of -20.4 per cent is the worst in the competition by a long way — seven per cent more inaccurate than the next-ranked player, wayward Essendon forward Joe Daniher. Wingard — once considered a sharpshooter — ranks equal-sixth worst in front of the sticks with a -8.3 per cent kick rating. He has kicked 11.15. Asked why kicking had been such a weakness for the Power, Wingard replied: “We can't pinpoint it but it could be a bit of personnel. “Some people draft kickers and it might be (because of) our (game) style.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/spor...t/news-story/783790071a108c432577f9b3c6af461b

 

[raptalia]

I think you're onto something.

What I noticed the most when we played West Coast in 2016 (I was sitting on the wing where I was able to view more stoppages). Every single clearance ruck tap that went to say Priddis he would kick to the same general spot, where Josh Kennedy seemed to appear.

It wasn't just Priddis, but for example. He's not the quickest player and most of his kicks were fairly rushed. But he hardly missed a forward target even without having a moment to look ahead. Even kicks around the corner.

(I could be totally mis-remembering this game, given that i tend to block losses out, and West Coast losses blur into one)

So I asked myself how did they manage to land it on the chest of JK every time? the only conclusion was that

a) the mids knew where the forwards would be and would just put it there
b) the forwards knew where the mids would kick it to and just lead to there

I could be wrong, or this could only be a small portion of the time, given that we appear to be abysmal at kicking not just from centre clearances, in fact it's more obvious when we intercept mark across the backline and go forward to turn it over again.

So yes, I suspect skills might be lacking in one area, but surely hitting a target is much easier when you are pre-informed on where the target is likely to be.

I shall watch this more closely this evening, in the meantime I invite criticism.

Let me take you back a bit to 1990, a year in which Scott Hodges booted 10 goals in a series of consecutive games. We played Westies at Alberton and Scotty had to boot ten that day to set an SANFL record for consecutive ten goal bags, not even the great Ken farmer had achieved it. Scott did it by running to a spot in at half forward and the rest of our side simply kicked the ball to the spot. They were not kicking to Hodges, they were kicking to a spot and they knew Scotty would be running into it. The spot was deliberately left vacant a bit like 'Pagan's paddock' when Wayne Carey was in full flight.

To achieve something like that you need a cohesive game plan and a level of intelligence that appears beyond our current Coaching panel. Someone needs to get the message to Hinkley that it isn't about four players all running to the fall of the ball and playing handball, it is about having a couple of players at the fall and the others making position down ground to take the footy when it is kicked to position.

Incidentally that Alberton game was the game in which KG Cunningham was booed from the ground.

PS Harold Oliver is exactly right, the Adelaide Crows use a game plan where they run to position and know they will get the ball. Hasn't been quite as obvious this year as they have some gun players missing but when they get it going it is hard to stop.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Robert Younger - our Performance Data Scientist based in Melbourne retweeted this tweet on Goal Kicking showing each teams results over their history and the tweet animates the results for the 18 teams. I went to the website and found the original graphs. We are a yo-yo team for results - partly because we are a yo-yo team for kicking goals as we rid the roller coaster.








https://www.dsexplorer.org/2018/06/07/animated-afl/

 

[GremioPower]

Robert Younger - our Performance Data Scientist based in Melbourne retweeted this tweet on Goal Kicking showing each teams results over their history and the tweet animates the results for the 18 teams. I went to the website and found the original graphs. We are a yo-yo team for results - partly because we are a yo-yo team for kicking goals as we rid the roller coaster.








https://www.dsexplorer.org/2018/06/07/animated-afl/

Weird as hell, because the pattern does not happen away. It is at home that our kicking accuracy seems random from one season to another. One would imagine that it would be the other way around, because away fields are different from one another.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Let me take you back a bit to 1990, a year in which Scott Hodges booted 10 goals in a series of consecutive games. We played Westies at Alberton and Scotty had to boot ten that day to set an SANFL record for consecutive ten goal bags, not even the great Ken farmer had achieved it. Scott did it by running to a spot in at half forward and the rest of our side simply kicked the ball to the spot. They were not kicking to Hodges, they were kicking to a spot and they knew Scotty would be running into it. The spot was deliberately left vacant a bit like 'Pagan's paddock' when Wayne Carey was in full flight.

This is basically what every other team does when transitioning the ball. Use movement to create space, kick into that space where if the system is working, someone will be leading. If it's a bit clogged up, use some overlap run and handball to break the line, and then use movement up field to create space, kick into that space and find a leading player.

Hawthorn might have spent a decade drafting good kicks but they won 3 consecutive flags because their ball movement system combined with their footskills meant they were incredibly hard to retrieve the ball from.

Our problem is we hesitate and outside of Pittard and sometimes Bonner, we don't run with the ball out of the backline to put pressure on the zone. We don't appear to have regular options or a standard system for getting players free.

This shit is hard. Teams are coming up with new defensive strategies all the time to counter the ball movement style of certain teams. But you have to be trying something and innovating.

Get the system right and every player on our list will look like a great kick.

 

[raptalia]

Robert Younger - our Performance Data Scientist based in Melbourne retweeted this tweet on Goal Kicking showing each teams results over their history and the tweet animates the results for the 18 teams. I went to the website and found the original graphs. We are a yo-yo team for results - partly because we are a yo-yo team for kicking goals as we rid the roller coaster.

The thing that concerns me is that no one at Alberton appears to have any answers to what is a recognised malaise. Hinkley acknowledges that we have kicking problems but year in, year out, they never seem to be fixed. It is always a 'we have to get better' type comment but we never do.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The thing that concerns me is that no one at Alberton appears to have any answers to what is a recognised malaise. Hinkley acknowledges that we have kicking problems but year in, year out, they never seem to be fixed. It is always a 'we have to get better' type comment but we never do.

Because you never hear first, we gotta work smarter. Its always hard work and getting what you deserve. Taking the dumb road first you indeed get what you deserve.

Ben Perkins is a right wing nut job, but he gets results. He might upset some people, he might make people feel uncomfortable, but he gets results. He might be unconventional, but he gets results. He has worked with plenty of premiership players, but he gets results. We are too scared of him and have no net improvement over the Hinkley years..

 

[Portology]

That poor all round 'relative kicking' rating fits our anecdotal observations. Surprising to see Boak on the positive side, less surprising to see Polec on the negative side but that's the power of averages to mislead when applied to specific points. They don't say *why*, and we want to jump to "so and so is a good/bad/unreliable kick". Subjectively, I think I'm seeing improvement in both Grays' and Westhoff's kicking this season and regression with Dixon and Chad. Where did all those *inconsistent* changes in *individuals* come from??

We also probably have the lowest 'possession advantage to winning margin' ratio in the history of the AFL, if I can invent a new one. Thing is, that possession advantage is because of systems we've been working towards post the exhilarating rushing madness of 2013-2014. If we're spending more time trying to make a relatively complex 'system' more instinctive for the group, to "speed the movement" as Janus would say, or to "clear the mechanisms" as I might say now... then we're probably constrained to spend less time on a few fundamentals. My pet theory is that being in the middle of learning a complex system actually makes executing simple things mentally harder for a time - you actually want to do it to relieve self-imposed pressure but you've been conditioned to feel guilty about switching "off" the extra stuff your head has been crammed with. Hopefully the 'effect' is temporary until... the mechanism is cleared

Maybe as we get closer to where Ken wants us to be mentally we'll adjust the mix back a little more towards finishing efficiency. I hope so.

It shouldn't be about hiring Ben Perkins 'the person' or not, we're not hiring his personal opinions. It ought to be "can we make specific time and plans for Ben to work with us so our priorities and his opinions aren't in anyone's way?". Maybe Ben is 'difficult' about being pigeonholed to fit other folks' plans. And if it's not about Ben maybe it is about Ken. Maybe Ken, like Janus and Clarko before him, think 'the total system' plus 'recruiting enough natural good kicks' is a more efficient path to flag than 'simple game plan' plus 'try to fix basic technique'. Even though in-game, specifically, for us, for three years, it has looked anything but an efficient path. Maybe Ken could be told to compromise and make time for just one or two folks to work one on one with Ben - Dixon first.

Coaches at the top level of a very team centric sport want to focus on things of their own making almost more so than on the winning itself. Nature of the driven beast. I understand that. But just one more goal per game the last few years would have made significant difference to us. We don't like things we can't control, even if we're very sensitive to small changes in them. Time to look in the mirror a bit.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Proof kicking in the AFL has fallen away and we in bottom part of that shitty kicking. Its probably the worst part of the modern game and the most frustrating for me when watching the game. Everything else has improved since the game went 100% full time professional, except the fundamental of the game - kicking and goal kicking in particular which has plateaued - it is called football after all, not runningball.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...r/news-story/cbe0f18d9dae3f42e4a9f4d2d6c4b092





The Port bit. Tredders bagged our kicking in his Thursday column. From his article which was mainly about Robbie Gray. Tredders like me reckons we stupidly tried to play dry weather footy against Freo.



https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/spor...r/news-story/71a5e673322df24bb2ae1227b7df4adc

Of all the teams in the top eight Port is clearly the worst at scoring, averaging 83.8 points per game — 21.2 points behind the No. 1-ranked ranked Melbourne on 105.

Field kicking has been poor, too often when clear of genuine pressure they fail to hit the target. And what’s becoming more familiar, when under pressure they over-possess the ball, often giving to a teammate who’s under more pressure.

Even more baffling is trying to play dry-weather football in wet conditions, with players refusing to adjust the way they play. There was no greater example of this than on the weekend.

Over the past four years when Port was in a pickle, Robbie Gray was the man to get them out of it. Whether he was moved into the midfield to win clearances or pushed forward to kick a vital goal, he’s been Ken Hinkley’s go-to guy to get them out of jail.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/spor...r/news-story/71a5e673322df24bb2ae1227b7df4adc

 

[VineValerian]

This is basically what every other team does when transitioning the ball. Use movement to create space, kick into that space where if the system is working, someone will be leading. If it's a bit clogged up, use some overlap run and handball to break the line, and then use movement up field to create space, kick into that space and find a leading player.

Hawthorn might have spent a decade drafting good kicks but they won 3 consecutive flags because their ball movement system combined with their footskills meant they were incredibly hard to retrieve the ball from.

Our problem is we hesitate and outside of Pittard and sometimes Bonner, we don't run with the ball out of the backline to put pressure on the zone. We don't appear to have regular options or a standard system for getting players free.

This shit is hard. Teams are coming up with new defensive strategies all the time to counter the ball movement style of certain teams. But you have to be trying something and innovating.

Get the system right and every player on our list will look like a great kick.

Really like the logic in this post.

It strikes me that most good teams know where each other will be and instinctivly get the ball in that direction, often without looking.
We hesitate, look around for a target, then try to dish off, but the time taken to do that allows defensive systems to be deployed by the opposition.

Knowing your team's offensive positioning (like your times tables) does help quick ball exit from stoppages.

 

[Adam Marrett23]

It doesn't help that we have lost Hartlett and Broadbent for the year. You'd almost say they are our best users of the footy coming out of defence, and it's restricted our run from defence I think. The players we have back there now aren't elite kicks like those two are. Pittard tries to break the lines, and I'm excited to see what Lienart brings to try and fix this issue today. Even McKenzie would be worth a look to fix this issue if he was fit but he can't get a run at it either. I feel the loss of Hammer and Brogsy has cost us a couple of games this year.

Our kicking skills aren't the best outside of Polec, Motlop, and maybe Wingard so we have become a grunt side that relies on our contested work to win games. We have the capabilities on our day when we are unleashed to play attacking footy, the second half of the Showdown, the Bulldogs game, the second quarter of the Richmond game so here's hoping we can bring it out the next 6 weeks and into a finals campaign.

 

[Power Raid]

athletes vs footballers

perhaps if we have rule changes, we should consider reducing the impact of athletes

 

[OneGreatClub]

athletes vs footballers

perhaps if we have rule changes, we should consider reducing the impact of athletes

Perhaps rule changes will help us yes but I just can’t see any light at the end of the tunnel.
2013 and 2014 are long gone. It has been terrible since.

 

[raptalia]

At his presser Hinkley was asked about our low skill levels. He smiled and said there is no fairy dust that we can sprinkle and fix it. He also admitted that the Coaching staff know there is a skills problem and they practice consistently. He also tried to diffuse the criticism by saying that all clubs have the skills problem.

The fact that the Coach was trying to make light of our now widely recognised low skill levels is pretty poor because it is a serious problem and no laughing matter. The fact that the Coach admits that there is a problem and that the players work on it at every practice session, while commendable, indicates that what they are doing is not working.

The fact that members of the media focused on two areas, our low skills and our lack of ruck support for Paddy Ryder, indicates that it is not just a few of us on this site having a grizzle. These are now widely identified issues and they have to be addressed with more than a smirk and a reference to 'fairy dust'. Ken Hinkley gets paid several Ks per year to improve our performance and from where I sit he is not doing it.

Personally I think our problems are pretty unique and relate to us alone but if several other clubs have skill related issues maybe Ken needs to look at what they are doing to overcome their problems and copy it ?