Opinion Can't kick, can't play football

[HighBudget]

Just a quick stat I saw today that before this game we are running 8th in the comp for shots on goal so I don't think right now we need to worry to much about this of course it would be better to kick straight every time but it's not like we are the worst in the comp!

I also believe hawks flooding back in the second half made it hard because there was more pressure when we would kick for a goal on the run just some good for thought!

Yeah Hawks knew that they'd lost the match at half time so activated protocol SOFGBLBWABOSC, something we should of done in the 07 Grand final

 

[Schulzenfest]

Surely it's due to our game plan. We lock the ball in our forward half frantically so the oppo clog up our forward half, so many bodies, so it's hard to get easy goals. When the oppo get the ball over the back they run into an emptier forward half.

With a natural second tall forward in Brett Eddy in the side: 51 goals and 32 behinds, 61% of scoring shots are goals, three of three games with more goals than behinds
Without Brett Eddy in the side: 105 goals and 112 behinds, 48% of scoring shots are goals, three of seven games with more goals than behinds

I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Last night I listened to a few of Choco's segments with Francis Leach on SEN afternoons, some in part and some in full, going back to when he started in late January. This one about the Precision Sherrin Choco invented and is in partnership with Sherrin to improve kicking. The full segment of 28 minutes but the first 18 minutes covers kicking techniques and his Sherrin footy development.

https://audioboom.com/posts/5700461-mark-williams-on-afternoons?t=0

I love how Choco got a bootmaker to work with his foot design over a few years, cutting up and old Sherrin sand went and got a design patent for it and then took it to Sherrin.

At around 6.30 he talked about getting this guy - Damian Farrow - from the AIS as a skills acquisition coach to help with kicking and other stuff and he ended up working with Neil Craig as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it was contact with Farrow at Port that gave Clarkson the idea to seek out and employ David Rath as his first assistant coach who was also at the AIS who was also a skills acquisitions specialist at the same time as Farrow. Farrow is now a professor at Victoria University and has concentrated on non footy sports. I note he has published a few journal articles with an Abernethy, B. I don't think its Bruce.

https://www.vu.edu.au/contact-us/damian-farrow

I purchased his 2006 book, Why Dick Fosbury Flopped - and answers to other big sporting questions, for about $5 just before the 2008 Olympics. I had no idea who he was. At about 10 minutes in, he talks about the goal kicking advise goal kicker great Peter McKenna gave him when he first got to collingwood in 1981. McKenna said to look at your target, approach you kick straight, but follow thru with your kick. He would stand on the mark and tell Choco to follow thru by running straight at him and just touch him. As simple as that.

This is the Sherrin website with info on Choco's Precision Sherrin footy. If you buy a footy you get access to online training module. He has produced 3 size balls.
https://www.sherrin.com.au/skill/precision.html

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Also from Francis Leach's SEN afternoons podcast, he spoke to Ben Perkins in early May about helping someone like Joe Daniher improve his goal kicking. Ben was entertaining as usual.

https://audioboom.com/posts/5880255-ben-perkins-on-afternoons?t=0

 

[G3TWOTYAD3S3RV]

Last night I listened to a few of Choco's segments with Francis Leach on SEN afternoons, some in part and some in full, going back to when he started in late January. This one about the Precision Sherrin Choco invented and is in partnership with Sherrin to improve kicking. The full segment of 28 minutes but the first 18 minutes covers kicking techniques and his Sherrin footy development.

https://audioboom.com/posts/5700461-mark-williams-on-afternoons?t=0

I love how Choco got a bootmaker to work with his foot design over a few years, cutting up and old Sherrin sand went and got a design patent for it and then took it to Sherrin.

At around 6.30 he talked about getting this guy - Damian Farrow - from the AIS as a skills acquisition coach to help with kicking and other stuff and he ended up working with Neil Craig as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it was contact with Farrow at Port that gave Clarkson the idea to seek out and employ David Rath as his first assistant coach who was also at the AIS who was also a skills acquisitions specialist at the same time as Farrow. Farrow is now a professor at Victoria University and has concentrated on non footy sports. I note he has published a few journal articles with an Abernethy, B. I don't think its Bruce.

https://www.vu.edu.au/contact-us/damian-farrow

I purchased his 2006 book, Why Dick Fosbury Flopped - and answers to other big sporting questions, for about $5 just before the 2008 Olympics. I had no idea who he was. At about 10 minutes in, he talks about the goal kicking advise goal kicker great Peter McKenna gave him when he first got to collingwood in 1981. McKenna said to look at your target, approach you kick straight, but follow thru with your kick. He would stand on the mark and tell Choco to follow thru by running straight at him and just touch him. As simple as that.

This is the Sherrin website with info on Choco's Precision Sherrin footy. If you buy a footy you get access to online training module. He has produced 3 size balls.
https://www.sherrin.com.au/skill/precision.html

Something's just can't be taught. Either you know how to kick a footy or you don't .

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Something's just can't be taught. Either you know how to kick a footy or you don't .

That's crap. You can always improve if you work hard AND smart enough on something. Kicking is no different to anything else. You might not end up an elite kick, but you can move from poor to average to above average over time.

 

[G3TWOTYAD3S3RV]

That's crap. You can always improve if you work hard AND smart enough on something. Kicking is no different to anything else. You might not end up an elite kick, but you can move from poor to average to above average over time.

You mean to say coming through junior footy,school club etc that by draft which is 18 one still needs to learn how to kick a footy ? Caarn mate I know ho to kick better than Westoff & Trengove combined & never had any specialist coach.

 

[Sleezy]

That's crap. You can always improve if you work hard AND smart enough on something. Kicking is no different to anything else. You might not end up an elite kick, but you can move from poor to average to above average over time.

I read a book earlier in the year called grit: the power of passion and persistence.

The author is a psychologist who studies talent, achievement and the correlations between the two.

Her basic theory is:
Skill = talent * effort
Achievement = skill * effort

Achievement = talent * effort^2

Work hard and smart enough and most people can reach a very high level of achievement.

Someone like Tommy Robredo/ is a perfect example. Top 10 tennis player for many years known for hard work over talent. Was super consistent but never good enough to beat the top 4, because they had more talent and worked just as hard. Everyone else (think monfils, gasquet, berdych, gonzalez etc) he beat in spite of their superior talent.

 

[OneGreatClub]

I read a book earlier in the year called grit: the power of passion and persistence.

The author is a psychologist who studies talent, achievement and the correlations between the two.

Her basic theory is:
Skill = talent * effort
Achievement = skill * effort

Achievement = talent * effort^2

Work hard and smart enough and most people can reach a very high level of achievement.

Someone like Tommy Robredo/ is a perfect example. Top 10 tennis player for many years known for hard work over talent. Was super consistent but never good enough to beat the top 4, because they had more talent and worked just as hard. Everyone else (think monfils, gasquet, berdych, gonzalez etc) he beat in spite of their superior talent.

So if you subscribe to this then Kenny was right all along with his 'work harder'

 

[G3TWOTYAD3S3RV]

So if you subscribe to this then Kenny was right all along with his 'work harder'

I think our footy club works hard enough. It comes down to talent/genes. Either you have it or you don't . Hawks had this talent which took them to Premierships.

 

[TeeKray]

That's crap. You can always improve if you work hard AND smart enough on something. Kicking is no different to anything else. You might not end up an elite kick, but you can move from poor to average to above average over time.

Brad Ebert being a great example of this.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

You mean to say coming through junior footy,school club etc that by draft which is 18 one still needs to learn how to kick a footy ? Caarn mate I know ho to kick better than Westoff & Trengove combined & never had any specialist coach.

Firstly not everyone plays a shit load of junior footy before they are drafted. Look at Todd Marshall this year is his 3rd season of competitive games of Australian Football. He has plenty of room for improvement. Look at Tagh Kennelly and other guys who came from games where they kicked a round ball where the coaches, (George Stone in particular for Kenelly), were able to be teach them how to kick an oval ball well and they improved over time. Same with league/union converts.

Plenty of kids are good kicks as juniors and good at training and hit targets easily at training once they get to an AFL club, but they can't do it well under game day pressure.

Plenty of players have been shaky kicks for goal and have improved or go thru patches where they lose routine and confidence and can't hit the side of a barn. Matthew Lloyd is a good example of this. He was shaky at the start of his career, then went alright, then had a longish poor patch and he was forced to change his routine that took over 60 seconds to kick a set shot and finished his career as a great kick for goal. Look at Josh Kennedy was a poor kick, then went thru the Fred Flintstone routine before he became a great set shot for goal.

Westhoff is a lot in the head I think. He kicked plenty of good goals early in his career. Jacko looks very awkward but is actually a decent kick from a mark or free and a an ok kick on the run. He kicked plenty of set shots last year. Jacko suffered from having his hamstring ripped from the knee and nerve damage in his U/18 year. If you look at footage of him prior to that injury, his kicking action is nice and fluid. Then the injury forced him to have a very awkward action.

Read the article on David Rath from 2012 I posted on page 4 post # 99 of this thread and the improvement he has made at Hawthorn since Clarko appointed him in late 2004 straight after he got the coaching gig at the Hawks.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cant-kick-cant-play-football.1136236/page-4#post-50130487

Read what Shane Crawford said about working on lots of little things over the years for continual improvements, where they went from being turnover kings to a side that holds onto the ball. But it didn't happen over night. Yes they recruited plenty of blokes who were good kicks to start with, but they knew they had to work hard on it to improve to be able to execute good kicks on game day.

 

[G3TWOTYAD3S3RV]

Firstly not everyone plays a shit load of junior footy before they are drafted. Look at Todd Marshall this year is his 3rd season of competitive games of Australian Football. He has plenty of room for improvement. Look at Tagh Kennelly and other guys who came from games where they kicked a round ball where the coaches, (George Stone in particular for Kenelly), were able to be teach them how to kick an oval ball well and they improved over time. Same with league/union converts.

Plenty of kids are good kicks as juniors and good at training and hit targets easily at training once they get to an AFL club, but they can't do it well under game day pressure.

Plenty of players have been shaky kicks for goal and have improved or go thru patches where they lose routine and confidence and can't hit the side of a barn. Matthew Lloyd is a good example of this. He was shaky at the start of his career, then went alright, then had a longish poor patch and he was forced to change his routine that took over 60 seconds to kick a set shot and finished his career as a great kick for goal. Look at Josh Kennedy was a poor kick, then went thru the Fred Flintstone routine before he became a great set shot for goal.

Westhoff is a lot in the head I think. He kicked plenty of good goals early in his career. Jacko looks very awkward but is actually a decent kick from a mark or free and a an ok kick on the run. He kicked plenty of set shots last year. Jacko suffered from having his hamstring ripped from the knee and nerve damage in his U/18 year. If you look at footage of him prior to that injury, his kicking action is nice and fluid. Then the injury forced him to have a very awkward action.

Read the article on David Rath from 2012 I posted on page 4 post # 99 of this thread and the improvement he has made at Hawthorn since Clarko appointed him in late 2004 straight after he got the coaching gig at the Hawks.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cant-kick-cant-play-football.1136236/page-4#post-50130487

Read what Shane Crawford said about working on lots of little things over the years for continual improvements, where they went from being turnover kings to a side that holds onto the ball. But it didn't happen over night. Yes they recruited plenty of blokes who were good kicks to start with, but they knew they had to work hard on it to improve to be able to execute good kicks on game day.

I understand what you're saying & yes you can improve on little things. Some of these improvements can be self taught or just by training. As you pointed out lining up for goal is technique yes but the bigger picture is mentally. Whether it's fear of failure,pressure,crowds etc. Many players on instinct kick miraculous goals. Seems they know how to kick a footy after all. I'll still stand by my post in either you have the foundation or you don't. There may be exceptions but they would be in the minority.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Firstly not everyone plays a shit load of junior footy before they are drafted. Look at Todd Marshall this year is his 3rd season of competitive games of Australian Football. He has plenty of room for improvement. Look at Tagh Kennelly and other guys who came from games where they kicked a round ball where the coaches, (George Stone in particular for Kenelly), were able to be teach them how to kick an oval ball well and they improved over time. Same with league/union converts.

Plenty of kids are good kicks as juniors and good at training and hit targets easily at training once they get to an AFL club, but they can't do it well under game day pressure.

Plenty of players have been shaky kicks for goal and have improved or go thru patches where they lose routine and confidence and can't hit the side of a barn. Matthew Lloyd is a good example of this. He was shaky at the start of his career, then went alright, then had a longish poor patch and he was forced to change his routine that took over 60 seconds to kick a set shot and finished his career as a great kick for goal. Look at Josh Kennedy was a poor kick, then went thru the Fred Flintstone routine before he became a great set shot for goal.

Westhoff is a lot in the head I think. He kicked plenty of good goals early in his career. Jacko looks very awkward but is actually a decent kick from a mark or free and a an ok kick on the run. He kicked plenty of set shots last year. Jacko suffered from having his hamstring ripped from the knee and nerve damage in his U/18 year. If you look at footage of him prior to that injury, his kicking action is nice and fluid. Then the injury forced him to have a very awkward action.

Read the article on David Rath from 2012 I posted on page 4 post # 99 of this thread and the improvement he has made at Hawthorn since Clarko appointed him in late 2004 straight after he got the coaching gig at the Hawks.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cant-kick-cant-play-football.1136236/page-4#post-50130487

Read what Shane Crawford said about working on lots of little things over the years for continual improvements, where they went from being turnover kings to a side that holds onto the ball. But it didn't happen over night. Yes they recruited plenty of blokes who were good kicks to start with, but they knew they had to work hard on it to improve to be able to execute good kicks on game day.

#getrath

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

We kicked 3.7 from set shots and Richmond kicked 7.1. They also kicked 7 goals straight from late in the 3rd quarter. How much did we lose the game by?

I have no idea what our general kicking efficiency % was last night, bloody champion data dont release the figures to the public and unless you listen to the radio or tv and the commentators mention what it is for the night you wont find out. But I suspect it was at least 6% behind the AFL average and about the same amount behind Richmond's figure. Our delivery inside 50 was horrendous. Kicking over people's head, bombing to nobody, miss kicks, kicking wide to the boundary etc.

The figures below are from the AFL Record for last nights game for the season so far. Port's record is probably flattered by the big victories when the kicking has been good. It would be good to get kicking efficiency stats for each game for all teams.

It shows not only are we near the bottom of kicking efficiency but acccuracy for shots on goals ie includes kicks that don't make the distance or go out of bounds or on the full. Richmond are generally as bad as us but weren't as bad as us last night.

Given sides kick the ball between 200 and 230 times a game, if we improved by 3% to move from 64.2 15th% to 67.2% 5th, that would mean we do 6 or 7 better kicks a game to be efficient kicks. Now we want to improve by a least 6 kicks in those games we kick like shit and are close to a 55% kicking efficiency vs the AFL's average of 66%.

If we could have improved 6 of our kicks on goals which were points or didn't make it in the following games, then Geelong game is a win, WCE is a win, Richmond is a win, Adelaide is a win, and maybe even the GWS game is a win depending on when we kicked them.

Its a tight competition, so if you are going to kick like shit, then you wont win, and yes 3% or as little as 6 better kicks per game, could be the difference between 6 to 8 wins vs 6 to 8 losses over a year.

 

[Power One]

I agree. Our field kicking and basic set shots were piss poor, and should be better. Its frustrating that this continuing shit could leave us out of contention.
Missing out on major finals, or even the eight, because of missing too many get-able targets will be absolutely f****** galling.

 

[charcolechaddy]

Something's just can't be taught. Either you know how to kick a footy or you don't .

I dont agree , 90% of these guys can kick they dont have the mental testicular fortitude to do so.

We need a few very good sports cycos or start to pick guys who are mentaly strong.

Can we get someone to teach them to tackle as well.

 

[PAFC04]

Our poor kicking can be fixed if leading targets are there presenting properly, Richmond had plenty, where as we seem to be stagnate at important parts of the game. The two go hand in hand. Is it mental that we cant kick straight or is it from not leading/presenting providing no options.

 

[Power Raid]

That's crap. You can always improve if you work hard AND smart enough on something. Kicking is no different to anything else. You might not end up an elite kick, but you can move from poor to average to above average over time.

I can't fathom how an AFL player can't kick a ball beautifully on both feet. something is very wrong with the system if they can't.

wouldn't every player watch sam mitchell or Aker and strive for their excellence?

 

[Smithy7]

I can't fathom how an AFL player can't kick a ball beautifully on both feet. something is very wrong with the system if they can't.
wouldn't every player watch sam mitchell or Aker and strive for their excellence?

One person that needs to fix his kicking is Ollie Wines .. how many times in a game does he turn it over by missing a Port player.

 

[DaTBird187]

Three losses can be put down to losing to a better team on the day (or a bit of luck). GWS, Adelaide and Geelong.

Two loses can be put down to disgraceful kicking for goal. West Coast and Richmond.

And one was a complete disaster from start to finish. Essendon.

Those two loses in the middle are the difference between relevant and irrelevant.

 

[Steve Dore]

One person that needs to fix his kicking is Ollie Wines .. how many times in a game does he turn it over by missing a Port player.

Set shot at the northern end from 30m out on a slight angle and kicks it out on the full on the far side.

 

[bomberclifford]

Three losses can be put down to losing to a better team on the day (or a bit of luck). GWS, Adelaide and Geelong.

Two loses can be put down to disgraceful kicking for goal. West Coast and Richmond.

And one was a complete disaster from start to finish. Essendon.

Those two loses in the middle are the difference between relevant and irrelevant.

What's even worse is those two losses were AT HOME.
Surely a competent team knows how to kick goals at it's own home ground.

 

[Byrons Firen]

What's even worse is those two losses were AT HOME.
Surely a competent team knows how to kick goals at it's own home ground.

Is it our crowd and the fear of missing that causes them to tighten up/choke.
Golf is my active sport and the power of visualisation is considered a standard technique for better golfers.
The great Jack Nicklaus says that his pre-shot routine is to 'see' his shot in his mind's eye: direction trajectory.
Now this can be a negative if your negative/doubt/fear what might happen. Case in point a regular golf partner of mine
said as he stood on the tee "I hate this hole coz I hit it into those trees every time"... guess what happened?
Of course Ken isn't out there doing the kicking/handballing but as coach he is responsible for it.
It was shite in '15,'16 and now '17. Like our inside 50's conversion rate it all comes back to the head coach who is
paid 00's of 000's to get it right. He and he alone is responsible for the product that presents on the ground come match day.
Not beating the better sides is not good enough.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Many of our midfielders have very flawed kicking techniques. Sometimes it is very difficult to train this out of a player as their bio-mechanics are hard-wired - i have a couple of sons who are very talented but cant kick, despite endless hours of training/re-education.

Some observations ;

1) some of our players (eg boak, wines, gray/s) have terrible techniques (eg dont stand over the ball enough and dont guide it low enough onto their boot)
2) they are either too pig-headed to change, we have a poor kicking coach or their natural bio-mechanics are unable to be modified in the heat of a game
3) we should not have recruited so many players like this - perhaps can carry 1 eg like Hawthorn did with Brad Sewell
4) we will keep losing winnable games because of this issue
5) and last, im sick to death of watching kicks sail over forwards heads