Not difficult to improve from doing nothing. 
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Captaincy, Leadership & Marc Murphy
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Jatz
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And yet sadly, most of our players didn't improve.
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You like my posts... That's why you keep them for yourself.
lachie charm
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Not difficult to improve from doing nothing.
Sad state of affairs when the captain is praised for pulling his finger out.
BluStreak
Norm Smith Medallist
true, but it is a start.
lachie charm
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true - he's now doing enough to be only slightly embarrassing.
Murphy's form actually has been ok, he was probably BOG for us on Saturday. It's only an issue for a number of reasons. Because we're Carlton supporters and we've become used to a captain that carries us. Judd Carried us for years. Kouta did at times as did Sticks. We're used to a dominant freak player who wins games off his own boot as captain. Murphy is a good player but he's not one of these rare superstars who can do this, he's not a messiah type and this is odd for Carlton. The other is that we are losing and traditionally we at Carlton blame the coach and the captain with very little regard to the make up and quality of our side and the reason for that. The other aspect is that we don't have any league leading players in our side at all. None of our player are in the top bracket of AFL players for the role and position they play, we don't have anyone near all australian in our side, our top end is not only fairly average but it's also very shallow. We're asking certain individuals to do too much and exceed their abilities and that's just not going to happen.
Murphy as a sole onballer gathered 30 possessions on the weekend, that's about as good a game as you will get from him, that's his ceiling. High 20's early 30s is the ceiling for Judd these days and Gibbs. Perhaps with a goal in there once every now and then. There are loads of guys who in their best games, their ceiling is 35-40+. Carrazzo, Curnow etc, it's generally a big effort for them to get it in the high 20s. Watson, Swan, Fyfe, Kennedy, Mundy etc, there are a lot of players who have had 30+ possession games and Murphy was the first Carlton player to do it on the weekend.
In a gun side Murphy is your creative forward who is the reason why your team keeps going strong when you rotate your midfield. Just like Gibbs who would be your creative half back/wingman who would be the reason why your team keeps going strong when you rest a good midfielder. They aren't your key midfielders like they are at Carlton. This is why we're no good and can't play consistent four quarter football.
You can't blame Murphy for his performances and expect him to play above his capabilities. He is what he is in a team that hasn't got much and hasn't got much ability to do much about it.
I though he was very good on Saturday, it was a solid effort, we're just a fair way behind Essendon, who's top ball winners are better than ours.
Murphy as a sole onballer gathered 30 possessions on the weekend, that's about as good a game as you will get from him, that's his ceiling. High 20's early 30s is the ceiling for Judd these days and Gibbs. Perhaps with a goal in there once every now and then. There are loads of guys who in their best games, their ceiling is 35-40+. Carrazzo, Curnow etc, it's generally a big effort for them to get it in the high 20s. Watson, Swan, Fyfe, Kennedy, Mundy etc, there are a lot of players who have had 30+ possession games and Murphy was the first Carlton player to do it on the weekend.
In a gun side Murphy is your creative forward who is the reason why your team keeps going strong when you rotate your midfield. Just like Gibbs who would be your creative half back/wingman who would be the reason why your team keeps going strong when you rest a good midfielder. They aren't your key midfielders like they are at Carlton. This is why we're no good and can't play consistent four quarter football.
You can't blame Murphy for his performances and expect him to play above his capabilities. He is what he is in a team that hasn't got much and hasn't got much ability to do much about it.
I though he was very good on Saturday, it was a solid effort, we're just a fair way behind Essendon, who's top ball winners are better than ours.
Jatz
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Did much better than anyone else on the weekend.
I'd say the whole club is embarrassing, no point singling out individuals. Everyone from the leadership group down has had a terrible start to the season.
gab213
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We need to keep bringing more of the types like Cripps and Docherty to the club , the failure to do so in the past is what is costing us now and is why we need to rebuild the list.
Was pretty quiet in the first half but was fairly influential in the 2nd half I thought.
fnm_just a man
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Is this where the problem started for Murph and Gibbs? ...
JustaBattler
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All reads well superficially
a pity you forgot to say that Carlton absolutely SMASHED Essendon in clearances and contested possession - so there goes your whole argument in two stats
I don't get it, please be more specific? You're arguing we haven't got midfield issues? We've been belted in the midfield all year and were beaten there most of last season and prior to that have only ever been mediocre. What two stats have I got wrong exactly? Essendon had more of the football than us.
JustaBattler
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Carlton midfield is actually pretty good at getting the ball - and amongst the worst at using the ball - it continues to be an outside mid issue, spread issue, skill execution issue...
this is why we are in a difficult position and people are wondering about Malthouse- the open question is how much is it poor skills and poor attitude - V poor game plan and structuring....
a bit of both is probably true..
Malthosue would say it is lack of cattle....
His game style revolves around ( just like everyone else) a two way running midfield of frantic football - each way. Carlton doesn't have the rotations able to play like this - Carrazzo/Curnow actually aren't up to it at eh moment and younger players aren't either.
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You can have big, hard bodies that bang around in packs all day and get you clearances and contested possessions, but what happens after you get it? That's the most telling part. You can have 160 contested, but if only half of them are used well, you are fighting hard for little gain. I think the contested ball is a bit of a dodgy stat. If you win that ball, you usually have 1-2 opposition players hot on your tail making it difficult to use the ball effectively. We got smashed in the uncontested possessions. That means they were getting to the loose ball quicker than us and had time to use it properly, as well as having unchecked/loose men gaining easy touches.
Murphy's ineffectiveness as a captain doesn't stem from him being unable to regularly rack up 30+ disposal games, or carry us over the line on his back. It comes from not being vocal enough out on the ground. Not telling players where to be at bounces, asking for a block at a stoppage, hauling the troops in for a spray, being the first one over to Yarran when he's being pounded by Chappy and telling him to forget about any potential missed matches and to just focus on making up for it now. Yazz went missing after that when he had the potential to use it to his advantage and play out of his skin. You feel he was only one small pep talk away from keeping his head up.
JustaBattler
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The uncontested possession stats are damning indeed - and is the elephant in the room as far as game plan goes...there is NOTHING wrong with winning ball and keeping ball - there is a LOT wrong with winning ball and giving it away to opposition who have already spread or spread faster and execute better OR getting smashed EVERY time there is a turnover...
This is why there are question marks about Malthouse's game plan...
As for Murphy he has never been a captain as far as n field general goes and never will be- no one can disagree with your observations.
IF Malthouse insists on playing Carrazzo/Curnow/Bell types ( I like Bell) THEN he must adjust game plan to a Sydney style maul...or what used to be a Fremantle style maul where you get ball and move it forward scragging style to the next stoppage and then again and again and again...you blanket the clearances and tackle tackle tackle...movign ball foward playing wet weather footie - every week - until your younger faster types are developed.
That is a game plan that is workable with what Carlton has on its developed list now. It means NO MORE long bombs. 22 hard nosed at it tacklers and runners with ball.
Nailed it. It's been a problem for a few years and has been severely exposed so far this season.
I don't really agree with us being good at getting the ball, we were ok at getting it on Saturday otherwise we have been smashed in the clearances and possessions this season. The WCE's annihilated us out of the middle prior to this. 2014 we ranked last for disposals. 2013 we ranked 16th for disposals. 2012 we ranked 9th. We currently rank second last for disposals. We were 11th in clearances last year, 2013 we were quite good in clearances and ranked 3rd. We're mid table for clearances so far and that's after one very good clearance game in round 3.
I agree that we're bad using the ball but you can't always blame the player with ball in hand. Using the ball is 50% kicking skill 50% what's in front of you. It's a combination of not enough quality targets and a few too many poor users in the side in our case.
Our lack of quality midfield rotations is really evident, it's why we start well and fade away like we have done in all three games so far and many games last year. Don't underestimate the loss of Mclean and Robinson, they weren't great but they were our forwards who rotated through the midfield and have not been replaced. The loss of those two roles has been huge for us in regards to our decline. Their replacements were meant to be Thomas and Whiley. The recipe for success is 6-7 high quality ball winning centermen in a side to play 4 quarter football. We have Judd, Murphy and Gibbs and with Cripps going well this extended our control of the game from a quarter and a bit to around two quarters. Carrazzo, Curnow, White, Bell etc don't count, they aren't classy ball winners.
I think if we get to a stage where we have that many good mids in the side, we'd notice our kicking efficiency go up as we'd be better equipped to maintain 4 quarter run and be able to outrun the opposition, find space and create good options and we aren't doing that for long enough. On the other hand we also have a few guys who don't pass the footy real well. Bell and Curnow aren't great by foot, Murphy and Gibbs haven't been outstanding this year. Cripps hasn't kicked it real well so far. Menzel isn't having a good year by foot. Now I know a lot of these guys can kick and can hit targets. There are some good kicks of the footy here not kicking it well statistically. To me this suggests the options aren't great, not that we can't kick the ball. I can see it when I watch us, we're lacking players in space and run around the middle. Not the whole game, just parts where we're out of gas. We lack class up forward which is why we can have a few good clearance games but fail to control the game/football. We lack some good tall forwards, a few quick medium sized strong over head half forwards and a good small forward or two and ones who are capable of playing good footy in the center for spurts.
I don't see a problem with the game plan, I think it's preventing things from getting ugly for us. We're not ignoring options up the center of the ground, we're just unable to create them and link up well and that's a lack of rotations in my opinion because when we're up and about early we use the middle fairly well. Maintaining that for a lot longer is the key for us. I'd hate to see a coach force us to go up the middle, you'd see 150 points against every week. AFL sides are very very good from scoring from turnovers in the center of the ground, we just need to build a capable side that can do it safely, with run and skill for 4 quarters.
I don't think our players have a poor attitude, I think they are trying, they are just up against it. Up against better sides, fresher legs etc. We're losing and everyone is getting the blame. People can't see that we aren't good enough despite having some very good players. In the past, in the early 2000s and beyond, having 3 gun mids was enough to have some sort of success, it most certainly isn't anymore.
How do you change it. Well unfortunately it's not easy with us because the players aren't there and raring to go. Our next best mids outside of our main three are Cripps who is getting there. Carrazzo and Curnow who are primarily taggers. Graham who isn't quite ready yet and needs to be harder at the ball and Whiley who hasn't had a great preseason but is just starting to play some solid football in the VFL. It's no easy fix. Our half forward flanker problem I spoke of, Walker and Menzel fit into those spots ok, but they have had injuries and Menzel's form hasn't been good. Big forwards are hard to find, We've sent our CHB to the forward line where he's just an average forward and Jones who is ok and Casboult who doesn't kick goals. Murphy should be playing mainly forward and Gibbs mainly back but our failure to pick up high quality mids of recent years sees them as full time mids. This not only would solve our lack of quality rotations but solve our small forward hole and add class to our half back/wing area.
We don't have the cattle. We're getting punished from being a poor judge of young cattle. But we are being educated to play the style of football that wins finals and that's the best way to develop a list. Unlike the past where we played a style of football that looked good and was a good way to beat up on lesser teams while open ourselves up for the good sides and anyone with a defensive structure in place and a game plan that accommodated second rate players and allowed them to sit on the list and clog things up until we found ourselves with heaps of VFL quality players on good second and third contracts while we could only take the minimum draft picks and now we are what we are.
You don't build a good list by accommodating for your weak players and poor inconsistent players with bad attitudes. You don't do it by playing a type of footy that can make individuals who aren't up to it, genuine flat track bullies, look good. You play a type of footy that holds up in big games, that a side full of quality players can implement, that weeds out those who aren't up to it. Part of Malthouses way of developing a list is weeding out those borderline types and types who don't have good attitudes and don't perform in big games and one of the ways he exposes these types is with his game plan which requires discipline, a good work rate, good skills, good attitude and a physical aspect to their game. This is why we've seen quite a few players dropp off and get moved on, because what we're doing to weed out the ones who are a little soft, a little lazy, who don't have a go is working. Borderline and second rate players look crap under Malthouse and that's the beauty of it. It's soo good for our list structure, it's the main reason why he's been able to build sides. We had a lot of borderline, lazy, poor attitude, second rate footballers look alright at times under Ratten and look where that got us.
It's not about winning this week or next week for us, it's about winning the premiership in 5 or so years. This is what worries me if we sacked Malthouse, the message that would send would be horrendous. It's a message that says we overrate ourselves (again), we've been lying about where we thing we are and our rebuild, the new guy has to win or he's dead too. The garden still needs weeding and we still need plenty of fresh new growth. He's doing that well. Pressure to win, which is the message we'd be sending to the new coach could derail everything, that's how you get a list full of Joseph's, Lucas', Mclean's, Bower's, Thornton's etc and a team playing a style of footy that suites them but won't hold up on the big stage.
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I think we're normally there abouts with clearances and contested ball. Might not always win it, but generally aren't too far off. We do regularly get beaten in uncontested though. That screams of lack of desire to get the loose ball and lack of defensive pressure (inability to read the play?).
thylacine60
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With what? A sling shot?
But it is good to see him being vocal and bullish about his expectations.
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I think that its noble for him to come out with these sorts of comments but in reality, his view on things are just not an accurate assessment of where we are at :
Clearly he didn't read the memo !!
Clearly he didn't read the memo !!
Might not be an accurate assessment, but if the playing group didn't hold those attitudes Murphy spoke of, you would have to be concerned. They should be wanting and believing they can win every match. That's the sign of a good culture.
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