Carey or Ablett

[GWT6]

Skilton was THE dominant midfielder of his generation. And won three brownlows to show for it. Robert Harvey also won two. Flower was an exceptional wingman and a Jim Stynes brain fart away from showing what he would do in a grand final. But not on the top echelon of players in the history of the AFL.

Both Carey and Ablett could stamp their mark on a game at turn it at will. Both turned up in big games, particularly finals. Which has them both ahead of guys like Flower and Skilton.

Two things wrong with this post;

Flower got injured and wouldn't have played in the grand final
Flower is clearly in the top echelon of all-time players. An absolute superstar - was in the conversation as the best player in the game for a decade from the mid 70's to mid 80's. Would be one of the most all-around skillful players ever seen.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

But it’s true. Athletically Carey was far superior and would still dominate today due to this. GAS is a midget in comparison and would most likely get relegated to a second string forward or a graveyard position like small forward/winger.

Carey led his team to flags and as other people have pointed out it is what matters in GOAT debates.

GOATs aren’t losers in any sport which is why GAS doesn’t cut the mustard. I really don’t care how cool his marks were, he simply didn’t achieve enough. It’s not hate it’s a fact.

GAS was pretty much identical in size to Toby Green. He'd still go OK.

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[Enviable Tradition]

So basically we are now saying if you are not a premiership player it changes and marks you down as a player.
Just ridiculous, you could be the greatest player ever but play for the bottom side your whole career.

It's not just about the result.

A big part of the on field result is because Carey was more of a leader and a team player (on field at least).

That is probably the defining difference in my book.

Pick a player to watch as a neutral = Ablett

Pick a player for my own team = Carey

Though Ablett would probably be perfect for making the most of Ken's idiotic forward 50 entries.
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[Rich01]

Two things wrong with this post;

Flower got injured and wouldn't have played in the grand final
Flower is clearly in the top echelon of all-time players. An absolute superstar - was in the conversation as the best player in the game for a decade from the mid 70's to mid 80's. Would be one of the most all-around skillful players ever seen.

A champion for sure. And one of the best in his era. But not near the same level or others right up the top.

 

[Freomaniac]

. . . . awaiting Richmond trolls

View attachment 1612272

Wait when a drunk tigers fan brings up Tyrone Vickery LoL

 

[Freomaniac]

Carey

Can Scott Hodges in is Port magpies years be comparable?

 

[Freomaniac]

Ablett can't be Jordan, Jordan got it done on the biggest stage won 6 titles. No one is Jordan in any other sport. Having said that Carey is closer to being the Jordan of the AFL, star of the 90s and took his club to the promise land.

Ablett is more like Allen Iverson or Charles Barkley, freakishly good but couldn't get it done.

Carey like Jordan was integral to his team's success. Carey in 97 had a similar year to Jordan in 95, misses most of the season and then comes back and helps North win 5 of the last 7 and then single handedly beat Geelong in the QF.

Good point

 

[Freomaniac]

4 flags in 15 years- I'll take that.
Not bitter at all.
Pity Senior missed, but he got to watch Junior and Nathan in 07, and Jnr in 09.
He's contented.
We are talking about pure individual footballing skill and talent. Ablett wins.
Robbie Flower played in how many GF's?

Sad you brought up Robert flower.

Talented player but just unlucky on 2 fronts.

1. Not enough good players to help him.

2. 5 finals spots out of 12 teams, 14 if you include 1987.

Flower only played 3 finals. Those 3 finals were his last 3 games.

Bob Skilton only played 1 final In his career

 

[JimmyBC]

Can Scott Hodges in is Port magpies years be comparable?

His AFL record would suggest not. I was too young to remember him pre AFL from what I've read about him he should've gone to a Victorian club instead of staying & playing for the hybrids not a good fit.

Kicked 11 against Geelong once so obviously was good enough.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ablett can't be Jordan, Jordan got it done on the biggest stage won 6 titles. No one is Jordan in any other sport. Having said that Carey is closer to being the Jordan of the AFL, star of the 90s and took his club to the promise land.

Ablett is more like Allen Iverson or Charles Barkley, freakishly good but couldn't get it done.

Carey like Jordan was integral to his team's success. Carey in 97 had a similar year to Jordan in 95, misses most of the season and then comes back and helps North win 5 of the last 7 and then single handedly beat Geelong in the QF.

Neither could Carey though really, im
Not dismissing him because as I’ve said I don’t really have a qualm with him being rated higher and obviously he was a huge part of the north teams that won, but when it came to actually clinching their titles he wasn’t a huge factor. He was reasonable in one GF win and a mid-pack player in the other. Take him out of either of their winning grand finals and they probably still win both

 

[JimmyBC]

Neither could Carey though really, im
Not dismissing him because as I’ve said I don’t really have a qualm with him being rated higher and obviously he was a huge part of the north teams that won, but when it came to actually clinching their titles he wasn’t a huge factor. He was reasonable in one GF win and a mid-pack player in the other. Take him out of either of their winning grand finals and they probably still win both

Dopey stance as they don't get to GF's without him & the opponents on the day are totally focused on quelling him.

 

[PhatBoy]

Dopey stance as they don't get to GF's without him & the opponents on the day are totally focused on quelling him.

That’s my point.

The same applies to Ablett.

The whole argument of some in this argument is ‘well Ablett had a quiet grand final in 94-95 so he can’t be the best.’

Well he kicked 6 in the SF in 94 and kicked the match winner in the PF so they don’t get there without him. So if we win the GF somehow, and he has little impact on the result, he becomes a premiership player the same way Carey did: by impacting how we got there and then by doing not a great deal in the decider (albeit Carey still did more). So what’s the difference? One player’s teammates had a better game than the other’s did.


In 1995 he’s the Coleman medalist and kicks a handful in the prelim (albeit we won by heaps) to help us get there and again has a job descript grand final. If we win that, same scenario: he gets a medal same as Carey for a game in which he has no real influence on the result.
Carey only kicked 2 goals in one of his three grand finals, and the second goal came 2 minutes from full time when his side was up by 29 points.

Basically their trajectories were pretty similar: play huge roles in getting their sides to where they did, Carey got a bit more ball than Ablett as you would expect of a CHF but he didn’t do much with it especially in 1998 when they lost and he kicked 1.4, and in the games North won, his teammates played really strongly and they won. In 1996 Carey definitely didn’t play poorly - he had a lot of ball but he also didn’t impact the scoreboard really.

Ablett kicks 9 in a grand final and gets no reward for it because his team cant defend - it seems rather absurd that such an anomaly can play such a big role in an 18 man game in determining where players can be rated by the end of their career

As I said I don’t really see why you wouldn’t just rate Carey higher anyway as he had attributes that put him on a par or better regardless.

But being in a winning grand final team that he didn’t really have a huge part of, compared to someone who was colossal in a losing grand final, seems a harsh qualifier

 

[JimmyBC]

That’s my point.

The same applies to Ablett.

The whole argument of some in this argument is ‘well Ablett had a quiet grand final in 94-95 so he can’t be the best.’

Well he kicked 6 in the SF in 94 and kicked the match winner in the PF so they don’t get there without him. So if we win the GF somehow, and he has little impact on the result, he becomes a premiership player the same way Carey did: by impacting how we got there and then by doing not a great deal in the decider (albeit Carey still did more). So what’s the difference? One player’s teammates had a better game than the other’s did.


In 1995 he’s the Coleman medalist and kicks a handful in the prelim (albeit we won by heaps) to help us get there and again has a job descript grand final. If we win that, same scenario: he gets a medal same as Carey for a game in which he has no real influence on the result.
Carey only kicked 2 goals in one of his three grand finals, and the second goal came 2 minutes from full time when his side was up by 29 points.

Basically their trajectories were pretty similar: play huge roles in getting their sides to where they did, Carey got a bit more ball than Ablett as you would expect of a CHF but he didn’t do much with it especially in 1998 when they lost and he kicked 1.4, and in the games North won, his teammates played really strongly and they won. In 1996 Carey definitely didn’t play poorly - he had a lot of ball but he also didn’t impact the scoreboard really.

Ablett kicks 9 in a grand final and gets no reward for it because his team cant defend - it seems rather absurd that such an anomaly can play such a big role in an 18 man game in determining where players can be rated by the end of their career

As I said I don’t really see why you wouldn’t just rate Carey higher anyway as he had attributes that put him on a par or better regardless.

But being in a winning grand final team that he didn’t really have a huge part of, compared to someone who was colossal in a losing grand final, seems a harsh qualifier

I fell asleep halfway through this post I'll bookmark it as a cure for insomnia.

 

[PhatBoy]

I fell asleep halfway through this post I'll bookmark it as a cure for insomnia.

Ouch

 

[Osho]

Geewizz, a Devil's choice:
Abba or Bay City Rollers?
Old or New Testament?
Hitler or Stalin?
A religio-drugio or a narci-lass-basher?

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

I fell asleep halfway through this post I'll bookmark it as a cure for insomnia.

That’s a shame. He refuted your point very well.

 

[JimmyBC]

That’s a shame. He refuted your point very well.

Not sure you and Beavis even came within the vicinity of the point.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not sure you and Beavis even came within the vicinity of the point.

Which grand final would Geelong have got to without Ablett?

On the way to the '89, '92, '94 and '95 grand finals Ablett kicked 50 goals from 10 finals. 5 goals a game.

Ablett in '89 was the closest of the two having their performance swinging the result. You could argue that Carey's 1998 inefficiency cost NM the flag. That certainly wasn't the case for Ablett in any of his four grand finals.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Not sure you and Beavis even came within the vicinity of the point.

Who is Justice Beaver?

 

[Theicon]

Neither could Carey though really, im
Not dismissing him because as I’ve said I don’t really have a qualm with him being rated higher and obviously he was a huge part of the north teams that won, but when it came to actually clinching their titles he wasn’t a huge factor. He was reasonable in one GF win and a mid-pack player in the other. Take him out of either of their winning grand finals and they probably still win both

That's why I said no one is Jordan, at least in my opinion. I honestly think if Duck was a bit more ruthless towards his own teammates (see MJ in the last dance) then he may have got another premiership out of that group, most likely he doesn't lose the 98 GF and he goes down as the undisputed GOAT.
For me the only other athlete that has shown that pure ruthless aggression to be the best would be Novak.

 

[Vdubs]

Geewizz, a Devil's choice:
Abba or Bay City Rollers?
Old or New Testament?
Hitler or Stalin?
A religio-drugio or a narci-lass-basher?

So Lethal also out of the question.

 

[PhatBoy]

That's why I said no one is Jordan, at least in my opinion. I honestly think if Duck was a bit more ruthless towards his own teammates (see MJ in the last dance) then he may have got another premiership out of that group, most likely he doesn't lose the 98 GF and he goes down as the undisputed GOAT.
For me the only other athlete that has shown that pure ruthless aggression to be the best would be Novak.

Reasonable point, Armstrong perhaps if you put aside the cheating factor though that’s difficult considering one of the aspects of his ruthlessness was the demands he made of his teammates to actually cheat for him.

Cameron Smith was one in Australia who I would maybe push towards that category in that he along with Bellamy has always driven the Storm to push the boundaries tactically and of what was acceptable in league terms to try and be ahead of the pack. The Storm were always leading the way with everything they did and he drove those standards whether they were agreed with or not

 

[Mister Dog]

Ablett one-out in the goal square was impossible to stop…unless you’re Silvagni and allowed to hold and scrag him.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Wait when a drunk tigers fan brings up Tyrone Vickery LoL

I know it’s a joke but what’s funny is that Vickery was a more accurate kick than Ablett.

A goal/behind ratio of 1.83 v 1.49

Maybe Ablett people can come back down to earth now. He wasn’t that good.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

I know it’s a joke but what’s funny is that Vickery was a more accurate kick than Ablett.

A goal/behind ratio of 1.83 v 1.49

Maybe Ablett people can come back down to earth now. He wasn’t that good.

Welcome back Falcon. I see you’re back in your happy place. I.e. every Geelong/Ablett thread.