Carey or Ablett

[Sttew]

Can we take bets on how long it will take…..

Who won?

 

[Mr Meow]

Modern tactics have meant the traditional role of centre half forward has largely disappeared from the game. By "modern tactics", I mean defensive zones + holding onto possession at all costs (and not so many long kicks out of defence to a contest)

Key forwards will still use their fitness to get up the field and create an option for their teammates... But you just don't see the classic hit-up CHF like Wayne Carey dominating games as the team's focal point anymore. Nick Riewoldt and a young Travis Cloke were probably the last of a dying breed. Our game has moved beyond midfielders & half backs looking for their CHF on the lead and bombing it long to them and hoping they can outmark 2 defenders.

For younger AFL fans who didn't watch much footy prior to 2005 or 2010, it's probably a little bit difficult for them to understand just how important and dominant Wayne Carey was for his team. There is a tendency for people to fall back on the goal kicking stats (and highlights) and downgrade the likes of Carey, Chris Grant, Stephen Kernahan, Dermott Brereton, Royce Hart, etc... The truth is these guys were greats of the game. The number of goals they kicked (compared to full forwards such as Lockett and Dunstall) is irrelevant. FFs were always measured by how many goals they kicked. CHF's were not.

Centre Half Forward was always regarded as the most difficult position to play... and difficult to play well. A champion Centre Half Forward was always more highly regarded and more important than a prolific goal kicking full forward because they were right in the thick of the action and they could control the game. A bit like the modern day midfield beasts such as Bontempelli, Petracca, Cripps, Fyfe, Dangerfield, Martin...

Carey was the MVP of AFL footy right through the 90's just like Bont and Petracca are the current day Alpha dogs. The guys you couldn't stop who carried their team every week.



Ablett was a freak of a footballer. An absolute freak and one of the greatest players of all time. But so too was Wayne Carey. Carey was so good that from 1993-2000, many good judges (ex-players who weren't prone to hype & bullshit) were openly gushing in their admiration for him, saying he was the best CHF ever, better than Hart, and maybe even the greatest player ever. The media attention was similar to Chris Judd at West Coast - everyone knew from their 3rd or 4th season that we were witnessing the career of an all time great.

North had a great team in the 90's... 2 flags and 7 successive Prelims... But they wouldn't have been half as good without Carey dominating every weekend. He not only made his teammates walk taller, but he brought them into the game. He was constantly taking on 2 or 3 defenders, kicking 3 or 4 goals per game and also creating another 3 or 4 goals for his teammates.

Ablett was a brilliant individualist. He used his skill, raw power and athleticism to take big hangers, kick incredible goals, and make his opponents look like hacks on his way to kicking 8,9,10. Except he wasn't handpassing to teammates and bringing them into the game like Carey did and setting them up for goals. He was doing u-turns and taking 50 metre snaps at goal. On his best days out, he would end up with 8 goals, 7 behinds... Or 10 goals, 8 behinds... and the Cats would sometimes still lose! But nobody can turn it on with a big bag in every game. Not even God. Ablett also had his average days where he would kick 3-4 goals, or the occasional quiet game where he'd kick only 1 or 2. Carey would have games when he kicked 3 goals and still be BOG.



Ablett's team-mate Billy Brownless often said he would just sit back and watch him go. That he felt more like a spectator than a player. I think that kind of sums it up. Brownless was very talented footballer who made the All Australian team just once his career: in 1991, the same year that Ablett inexplicably decided to "retire" just a few weeks prior to Round 1 before returning in Round 13 and struggling his way through the remainder of the season. With Ablett largely out of the picture, Brownless was able to blossom and have his best season.

As another comparison to Carey... Corey McKernan dominated in 1996. He was voted MVP and polled equal most Brownlow votes. But he owed a lot of that to Carey who was at the peak of his career (and North Best and fairest that year.) I don't think McKernan would've been anywhere near as dominant in another team. North's opponents were so Carey-conscious, they gave McKernan way too much latitude.




Conclusion: if we're to judge them on raw ability and look at them in isolation, then Ablett was probably the greatest player ever. Unstoppable when he got in the mood. But if we are to judge them by the impact they had on every game and helping their team to victory, then I would rank Wayne Carey up there with Leigh Matthews as the best player I've seen.

I don't think there is a lot in it, to be honest. But I just get annoyed when I see people posting horseshit like "Ablett was CLEARLY better than Carey." That just says to me that you either didn't watch them play, or you were too young to understand what you were watching and you're just basing your opinion on highlights & goal tallies.

I've actually never seen this "Ablett was CLEARLY better than Carey" narrative. It certainly can't be a BigFooty thing.

I think you raise some valid points. But take Ablett out and that team doesn't get better. It goes back to being a solid enough middle of the road team that maybe wins a couple of finals in total. A few great midfielders (some of whom had poor grand finals) and sometimes another good key forward or two don't make a side. Certainly not one capable of taking down those brilliant Hawthorn, West Coast and Carlton units.

I'd lean towards Carey too but think the "team success" is aspect is actually because Ablett's sides were inferior to their grand final opposition, more than Carey's sides were to the '96 Swans, '98 Crows (that they somehow lost) and '99 Blues.

 

[Cyclops]

Define "best" and then you can decide who it is.

Ablett was freakishly fit, huge tank IIRC. Definitely played a lot of wing as well as FF, not at all sure where this stuff about "one season on the wing" came from.

Fitness nut, blinding pace, unearthly strength (he broke Dipper) and dazzlingly skilled, absurd goal sneak who could also hoof it a mile. Durable AF, took beatings and kicked bags at the same time. Saw off Craig Kelly and Gary Pert in the same game, both thumped him mercilessly until they subbed themselves out. Occasionally he'd snap and get rubbed out for some psycho nonsense.

Carey was an utter professional on the pitch, seems to have been an effective captain, as a player he was utterly consistent fronting up injured or fit (three goals on one leg vs us remains in my mind). As good a pack mark as Abblet (3-4 inches taller though), great awareness and more than enough toe on the turf and strong as an ox. I remember him going into the centre after halftime vs Carlton because he needed a touch, it was a terrifying prospect and he wasn't bad. Less tricks than Ablett but just as adept at walking through packs.

Much better self control on the pitch, I think he thumped a few idiots early on just to make a statement but was mostly focussed on the game, and he played for his team mates.

Best CHF in my lifetime ahead of Hart, Brereton and Kernahan.

Not as bad a druggie like off field Ablett but strangely more destructive of club culture with his infidelity. My first thought was "Ablett is a worse person" but he never ripped his club apart like Carey did.

Ablett is the best footballer I have seen, unearthly power, blinding speed, huge tank and blessed skills.

Carey is arguably the next best player in my time. Slower, bigger (harder to find good big men) just as strong and a better onfield leader.

I'd take Albert "Leeter" Collier ahead of either of them.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Modern tactics have meant the traditional role of centre half forward has largely disappeared from the game. By "modern tactics", I mean defensive zones + holding onto possession at all costs (and not so many long kicks out of defence to a contest)

Key forwards will still use their fitness to get up the field and create an option for their teammates... But you just don't see the classic hit-up CHF like Wayne Carey dominating games as the team's focal point anymore. Nick Riewoldt and a young Travis Cloke were probably the last of a dying breed. Our game has moved beyond midfielders & half backs looking for their CHF on the lead and bombing it long to them and hoping they can outmark 2 defenders.

For younger AFL fans who didn't watch much footy prior to 2005 or 2010, it's probably a little bit difficult for them to understand just how important and dominant Wayne Carey was for his team. There is a tendency for people to fall back on the goal kicking stats (and highlights) and downgrade the likes of Carey, Chris Grant, Stephen Kernahan, Dermott Brereton, Royce Hart, etc... The truth is these guys were greats of the game. The number of goals they kicked (compared to full forwards such as Lockett and Dunstall) is irrelevant. FFs were always measured by how many goals they kicked. CHF's were not.

Centre Half Forward was always regarded as the most difficult position to play... and difficult to play well. A champion Centre Half Forward was always more highly regarded and more important than a prolific goal kicking full forward because they were right in the thick of the action and they could control the game. A bit like the modern day midfield beasts such as Bontempelli, Petracca, Cripps, Fyfe, Dangerfield, Martin...

Carey was the MVP of AFL footy right through the 90's just like Bont and Petracca are the current day Alpha dogs. The guys you couldn't stop who carried their team every week.



Ablett was a freak of a footballer. An absolute freak and one of the greatest players of all time. But so too was Wayne Carey. Carey was so good that from 1993-2000, many good judges (ex-players who weren't prone to hype & bullshit) were openly gushing in their admiration for him, saying he was the best CHF ever, better than Hart, and maybe even the greatest player ever. The media attention was similar to Chris Judd at West Coast - everyone knew from their 3rd or 4th season that we were witnessing the career of an all time great.

North had a great team in the 90's... 2 flags and 7 successive Prelims... But they wouldn't have been half as good without Carey dominating every weekend. He not only made his teammates walk taller, but he brought them into the game. He was constantly taking on 2 or 3 defenders, kicking 3 or 4 goals per game and also creating another 3 or 4 goals for his teammates.

Ablett was a brilliant individualist. He used his skill, raw power and athleticism to take big hangers, kick incredible goals, and make his opponents look like hacks on his way to kicking 8,9,10. Except he wasn't handpassing to teammates and bringing them into the game like Carey did and setting them up for goals. He was doing u-turns and taking 50 metre snaps at goal. On his best days out, he would end up with 8 goals, 7 behinds... Or 10 goals, 8 behinds... and the Cats would sometimes still lose! But nobody can turn it on with a big bag in every game. Not even God. Ablett also had his average days where he would kick 3-4 goals, or the occasional quiet game where he'd kick only 1 or 2. Carey would have games when he kicked 3 goals and still be BOG.



Ablett's team-mate Billy Brownless often said he would just sit back and watch him go. That he felt more like a spectator than a player. I think that kind of sums it up. Brownless was very talented footballer who made the All Australian team just once his career: in 1991, the same year that Ablett inexplicably decided to "retire" just a few weeks prior to Round 1 before returning in Round 13 and struggling his way through the remainder of the season. With Ablett largely out of the picture, Brownless was able to blossom and have his best season.

As another comparison to Carey... Corey McKernan

Corey Mckernan

Age

51

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

9.2

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.2

4star

dominated in 1996. He was voted MVP and polled equal most Brownlow votes. But he owed a lot of that to Carey who was at the peak of his career (and North Best and fairest that year.) I don't think McKernan would've been anywhere near as dominant in another team. North's opponents were so Carey-conscious, they gave McKernan way too much latitude.




Conclusion: if we're to judge them on raw ability and look at them in isolation, then Ablett was probably the greatest player ever. Unstoppable when he got in the mood. But if we are to judge them by the impact they had on every game and helping their team to victory, then I would rank Wayne Carey up there with Leigh Matthews as the best player I've seen.

I don't think there is a lot in it, to be honest. But I just get annoyed when I see people posting horseshit like "Ablett was CLEARLY better than Carey." That just says to me that you either didn't watch them play, or you were too young to understand what you were watching and you're just basing your opinion on highlights & goal tallies.

This is a good post. How many times did anyone ever see GAS handball or short pass off to a teammate in a better position ? He was the ultimate individual and selfish player. Didn’t train hard. Didn’t provide leadership. Didn’t pass. Didn’t bring others into the game. Coaches often say the very best players are those that make players around them better. Not sure GAS ever did anything on the field with the intention of helping his teammate succeed.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a superstar .. he was. But he was a sh*te teammate.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[WilloTree]

Carey

 

[pz5151]

Both were champions

Carey easily he won premierships for his club

And Billy Frampton is better than Buckley

 

[Rich01]

So basically we are now saying if you are not a premiership player it changes and marks you down as a player.
Just ridiculous, you could be the greatest player ever but play for the bottom side your whole career.

It’s a bit ridiculous isn’t it?
But think about it.

Those in contention for goat status in any other sport in the world carried their teams to championships.

Lebron, Kobe, Jordan, Gretzky, Mahomes, Brady, Pele, Maradonna, Ronaldo, Messi.

Those that really mattered and could influence big games when it mattered put themselves up in lights for the reason that they pushed their team to the ultimate success.

The fact is if you are the greatest player of all time, you wouldn’t be playing for the bottom team for long.

 

[Rich01]

Bob Skilton , Robbie Flower case in point..

Skilton was THE dominant midfielder of his generation. And won three brownlows to show for it. Robert Harvey also won two. Flower was an exceptional wingman and a Jim Stynes brain fart away from showing what he would do in a grand final. But not on the top echelon of players in the history of the AFL.

Both Carey and Ablett could stamp their mark on a game at turn it at will. Both turned up in big games, particularly finals. Which has them both ahead of guys like Flower and Skilton.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s a bit ridiculous isn’t it?
But think about it.

Those in contention for goat status in any other sport in the world carried their teams to championships.

Lebron, Kobe, Jordan, Gretzky, Mahomes, Brady, Pele, Maradonna, Ronaldo, Messi.

Those that really mattered and could influence big games when it mattered put themselves up in lights for the reason that they pushed their team to the ultimate success.

The fact is if you are the greatest player of all time, you wouldn’t be playing for the bottom team for long.

But in this case Carey didn’t do anything of the sort.

To be clear I don’t really have an opinion that disagrees - he was just as good as Ablett Sr.

Both players got their teams into finals every other season seemingly.

Sr played 4 grand finals, Carey played 3.

Carey was a non factor in 2 grand finals, played pretty well in another one but wasn’t amazing. In all 3 grand finals

Yet he has two flags.

Ablett played perhaps the best grand final of all time, another reasonable one and two poor ones.


Carey‘s teams made 3 grand finals where they were 3 wins better than one opponent (Adelaide), 5 wins better than another (Carlton) and half a win behind a third (Sydney) and Sydney had next to no finals experience.

The sides Ablett played against were all significantly stronger on a win-loss basis bar the 1992 eagles who we finished half a game ahead of.



Essentially if you’re splitting them because ‘flags’ you’re rewarding Carey for nothing.

He didn’t play any great grand finals. He didn’t knock off any great opponents. He and his side played a grand final against a side that finished significantly lower on the ladder than they did and in which they had every right to win, and they didn’t.

The ones they won, they owed little to Carey.

It seems a stretch to use those medallions to split them

 

[EddieMurphy]

But in this case Carey didn’t do anything of the sort.

To be clear I don’t really have an opinion that disagrees - he was just as good as Ablett Sr.

Both players got their teams into finals every other season seemingly.

Sr played 4 grand finals, Carey played 3.

Carey was a non factor in 2 grand finals, played pretty well in another one but wasn’t amazing. In all 3 grand finals

Yet he has two flags.

Ablett played perhaps the best grand final of all time, another reasonable one and two poor ones.


Carey‘s teams made 3 grand finals where they were 3 wins better than one opponent (Adelaide), 5 wins better than another (Carlton) and half a win behind a third (Sydney) and Sydney had next to no finals experience.

The sides Ablett played against were all significantly stronger on a win-loss basis bar the 1992 eagles who we finished half a game ahead of.



Essentially if you’re splitting them because ‘flags’ you’re rewarding Carey for nothing.

He didn’t play any great grand finals. He didn’t knock off any great opponents. He and his side played a grand final against a side that finished significantly lower on the ladder than they did and in which they had every right to win, and they didn’t.

The ones they won, they owed little to Carey.

It seems a stretch to use those medallions to split them

Also Ablett played against the Hawks team which was one of the best dynasties ever.

 

[Cyclops]

Also Ablett played against the Hawks team which was one of the best dynasties ever.

That's a good point. The previous year the Hawks won by 96 points in the rain. Not a shower. A Biblical downpour.

1989 is one of the best games of footy ever played, the best I have seen, and Ablett was the best player in it. He nearly won it for the Cats against a substantially better side.

 

[Rich01]

But in this case Carey didn’t do anything of the sort.

To be clear I don’t really have an opinion that disagrees - he was just as good as Ablett Sr.

Both players got their teams into finals every other season seemingly.

Sr played 4 grand finals, Carey played 3.

Carey was a non factor in 2 grand finals, played pretty well in another one but wasn’t amazing. In all 3 grand finals

Yet he has two flags.

Ablett played perhaps the best grand final of all time, another reasonable one and two poor ones.


Carey‘s teams made 3 grand finals where they were 3 wins better than one opponent (Adelaide), 5 wins better than another (Carlton) and half a win behind a third (Sydney) and Sydney had next to no finals experience.

The sides Ablett played against were all significantly stronger on a win-loss basis bar the 1992 eagles who we finished half a game ahead of.



Essentially if you’re splitting them because ‘flags’ you’re rewarding Carey for nothing.

He didn’t play any great grand finals. He didn’t knock off any great opponents. He and his side played a grand final against a side that finished significantly lower on the ladder than they did and in which they had every right to win, and they didn’t.

The ones they won, they owed little to Carey.

It seems a stretch to use those medallions to split them

I don’t disagree with your sentiment.

Both players played very well in big games and got their teams into flag winning positions. Ablett could be considered unlucky in 1989.

But champions in other sports seem to have that will and grit to just win and push for the ultimate success.

Jordan, Kobe, Gretzky, Brady, Mahomes.
They just get it done.
They weren’t lucky to be drafted into good teams. The teams were built around them.

Ablett was supremely talented but perhaps didn’t have that charisma or leadership to unite his team to ultimate success. Carey in my view may have been slightly less talented but had the leadership to stand up and bring his team along with him. How ironic he blew up his club shortly afterwards. The sign of such a massive cultural presence for the club.

On the other hand you have guys like Flower and Skilton. Someone can quote his 3 brownlows from decades ago that didn’t deliver anything to the club except for exceptional and dominant performances by one of their players. And Flower being remembered by demons fans as one shining light in an otherwise dark era.

The greats lift their team to the highest levels. The greatest ones carry the team forward at the biggest moments. That’s why these two stand head and shoulders above exceptional players with very little team success.

If I had to choose from the two I’d pick Ablett if I wanted individual brilliance and had players in my team who could carry the can in terms of elite leadership.

I’d choose Carey if I wanted an exceptional matchwinner who could also lead a team to success over the course of time.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don’t disagree with your sentiment.

Both players played very well in big games and got their teams into flag winning positions. Ablett could be considered unlucky in 1989.

But champions in other sports seem to have that will and grit to just win and push for the ultimate success.

Jordan, Kobe, Gretzky, Brady, Mahomes.
They just get it done.
They weren’t lucky to be drafted into good teams. The teams were built around them.

Ablett was supremely talented but perhaps didn’t have that charisma or leadership to unite his team to ultimate success. Carey in my view may have been slightly less talented but had the leadership to stand up and bring his team along with him. How ironic he blew up his club shortly afterwards. The sign of such a massive cultural presence for the club.

On the other hand you have guys like Flower and Skilton. Someone can quote his 3 brownlows from decades ago that didn’t deliver anything to the club except for exceptional and dominant performances by one of their players. And Flower being remembered by demons fans as one shining light in an otherwise dark era.

The greats lift their team to the highest levels. The greatest ones carry the team forward at the biggest moments. That’s why these two stand head and shoulders above exceptional players with very little team success.

If I had to choose from the two I’d pick Ablett if I wanted individual brilliance and had players in my team who could carry the can in terms of elite leadership.

I’d choose Carey if I wanted an exceptional matchwinner who could also lead a team to success over the course of time.

I get the point but afl is such a uniquely different sport.

Soccer: 1 goal can win you a game so if you’ve got a strong defensive unit you can win your team a game with one kick. League-wise just go wherever you like and tell them to build you the team you want. If that were a qualifier then Ablett would have a title anyway. Less players on the field as well.

Basketball and hockey: far less players on the court. The influence of the best players is magnified many times over.

NFL: the most influential player HAS to have the ball in his hands. The rules of the game dictate that it gets put there. At the very least he gets opportunities. He still has to do the work so fair play to the likes of Brady etc but one thing you know is they will never show up to a game and not have a chance because the ball spends most of the match with the opposition.


Just expecting a 34 year old full forward to win his team a grand final against a 20-2 side when his team is getting dominated all over the field, by comparison to a Michael Jordan in a ‘you go then I go’ sport is an apples and oranges comparison.


As I said I don’t disagree that Carey is either just as good or possibly even better but the fact that he was part of two winning flags doesn’t impact on that for me: he didn’t play a huge role in either of them on GF day.

 

[Rich01]

I get the point but afl is such a uniquely different sport.

Soccer: 1 goal can win you a game so if you’ve got a strong defensive unit you can win your team a game with one kick. League-wise just go wherever you like and tell them to build you the team you want. If that were a qualifier then Ablett would have a title anyway. Less players on the field as well.

Basketball and hockey: far less players on the court. The influence of the best players is magnified many times over.

NFL: the most influential player HAS to have the ball in his hands. The rules of the game dictate that it gets put there. At the very least he gets opportunities. He still has to do the work so fair play to the likes of Brady etc but one thing you know is they will never show up to a game and not have a chance because the ball spends most of the match with the opposition.


Just expecting a 34 year old full forward to win his team a grand final against a 20-2 side when his team is getting dominated all over the field, by comparison to a Michael Jordan in a ‘you go then I go’ sport is an apples and oranges comparison.


As I said I don’t disagree that Carey is either just as good or possibly even better but the fact that he was part of two winning flags doesn’t impact on that for me: he didn’t play a huge role in either of them on GF day.

The best players in their sport can’t do it themselves. But their team are no chance to win the ultimate without them.

For me that’s the common thread for all these GOAT contenders. Their ability gets them in the conversation. Their greatness is cemented by their big game victories.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mr Meow]

This is a good post. How many times did anyone ever see GAS handball or short pass off to a teammate in a better position ? He was the ultimate individual and selfish player. Didn’t train hard. Didn’t provide leadership. Didn’t pass. Didn’t bring others into the game. Coaches often say the very best players are those that make players around them better. Not sure GAS ever did anything on the field with the intention of helping his teammate succeed.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a superstar .. he was. But he was a sh*te teammate.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

You've only seen old man, balding, goal square GAS. It's true he didn't pass too many off those years, hence his staggering goal tallies. There's no indication he was any more goal-orientated than Dunstall and Lockett when he played out of the goal square.

Prior to that, especially in his prime and when roaming up the field, he passed plenty. 7 of his career average disposals a game were scoring shots, 8 were getting team mates involved. Lockett had 7 of his 10 disposals as scoring shots, by comparison (fair enough, a deeper forward; hence why Ablett's later year ratios were similar). But generally if Ablett had the ball within 50m you wanted him to take a shot.

Myth debunked, old boy.

 

[PhatBoy]

The best players in their sport can’t do it themselves. But their team are no chance to win the ultimate without them.

For me that’s the common thread for all these GOAT contenders. Their ability gets them in the conversation. Their greatness is cemented by their big game victories.

But North Melbourne twice won the ultimate without Carey playing any major role. Take him out of both their grand finals and they probably win.

That’s my point.

It’s such a big sport as a team and yes there will be games - you as a Tigers fan would know this - where one player comes to the fore but very often they also don’t and in some situations can’t.

Imagine for a moment that Warren Tredrea was in his prime in 2007 and that people then judged him for that grand final: the ball spent more time in the second tier of the grandstand than it did in Port’s forward 50.

 

[Mr Meow]

But North Melbourne twice won the ultimate without Carey playing any major role. Take him out of both their grand finals and they probably win.

That’s my point.

It’s such a big sport as a team and yes there will be games - you as a Tigers fan would know this - where one player comes to the fore but very often they also don’t and in some situations can’t.

Imagine for a moment that Warren Tredrea was in his prime in 2007 and that people then judged him for that grand final: the ball spent more time in the second tier of the grandstand than it did in Port’s forward 50.

The two terrible Ablett grand finals his side were absolutely massacred and he was a 33-34 year old goal square forward. He had top class opponents in their prime, functioning within elite defensive groups, and there were easy double teams to deal with the few (scrappy) entries Geelong did generate. Could he, or any elite forward, have done any more at that age to somehow turn that into a competitive match? I highly doubt it. Yes he generated excellent goal tallies in 1994 and 1995 but that was throughout whole seasons where Geelong was functioning at least solidly, and sometimes excellently.

If he was 28 ala 1989 Ablett, maybe. But if the opposition midfield, defence and forwards are all over the opposition it's rare that any player - let alone a full forward - is going to be able to singlehandedly turn the tide. There's just too many players in our sport.

 

[Rich01]

Imagine for a moment that Warren Tredrea was in his prime in 2007 and that people then judged him for that grand final: the ball spent more time in the second tier of the grandstand than it did in Port’s forward 50.

Tredders was a Port great. But I’m not sure why he’s even in the topic of conversation.

Riewoldt is an interesting one though.
Now if the Saints won back to back flags in 2009-10 he’d be held in even higher esteem than if he currently is. Imagine if he’d grabbed those games by the scruff of the neck and not only broke St Kildas drought, but tripled their flag count. He’d be a god.

Unfortunately for Saints fans he didn’t do it, and we judge Saint Nick on his capabilities as a great player over a long period of time. A Matty Richardson type rather than a Carey. In fact, Riewoldt, Richardson and Carey’s stats weren’t to dissimilar.

There was one thing that stood Carey apart from the other two though. And that was the ability to stand up and lead his team to success in big games.

 

[Mr Meow]

Tredders was a Port great. But I’m not sure why he’s even in the topic of conversation.

Riewoldt is an interesting one though.
Now if the Saints won back to back flags in 2009-10 he’d be held in even higher esteem than if he currently is. Imagine if he’d grabbed those games by the scruff of the neck and not only broke St Kildas drought, but tripled their flag count. He’d be a god.

Unfortunately for Saints fans he didn’t do it, and we judge Saint Nick on his capabilities as a great player over a long period of time. A Matty Richardson type rather than a Carey. In fact, Riewoldt, Richardson and Carey’s stats weren’t to dissimilar.

There was one thing that stood Carey apart from the other two though. And that was the ability to stand up and lead his team to success in big games.

The thing with Riewoldt though is he was in his prime for two of the closest grand finals you could imagine, and just didn't have much impact (3 goals and no assists between them from memory; not in his sides best 5 players).

I wouldn't say it marks him down too much but Ablett was poor in two massacres as an old guy in the goal square. From the two pretty competitive ones he was godly and pretty good, respectively.

 

[My Tilly]

This is a good post. How many times did anyone ever see GAS handball or short pass off to a teammate in a better position ? He was the ultimate individual and selfish player. Didn’t train hard. Didn’t provide leadership. Didn’t pass. Didn’t bring others into the game. Coaches often say the very best players are those that make players around them better. Not sure GAS ever did anything on the field with the intention of helping his teammate succeed.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a superstar .. he was. But he was a sh*te teammate.


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You never saw him play.
Ablett was definitely more 'selfish' when he became a permanent full forward in 1993 but prior to that time, he was very much a play-making forward.
He often brought teammates into the game as he usually had the best defender hanging off him every game and could not do it alone no matter how good he was.
This whole notion that Ablett never passed to a teammates is false.

 

[PhatBoy]

Tredders was a Port great. But I’m not sure why he’s even in the topic of conversation.

Riewoldt is an interesting one though.
Now if the Saints won back to back flags in 2009-10 he’d be held in even higher esteem than if he currently is. Imagine if he’d grabbed those games by the scruff of the neck and not only broke St Kildas drought, but tripled their flag count. He’d be a god.

Unfortunately for Saints fans he didn’t do it, and we judge Saint Nick on his capabilities as a great player over a long period of time. A Matty Richardson type rather than a Carey. In fact, Riewoldt, Richardson and Carey’s stats weren’t to dissimilar.

There was one thing that stood Carey apart from the other two though. And that was the ability to stand up and lead his team to success in big games.

I’m just using it as a hypothetical:

A team gets absolutely spanked, in what circumstance would even the very best forward have been able to make any impact in that game?

 

[Rich01]

I’m just using it as a hypothetical:

A team gets absolutely spanked, in what circumstance would even the very best forward have been able to make any impact in that game?

Probably little. And champions from other sports that I’ve mentioned in this conversation haven’t always won them all. But they have won multiple, and stood up in the bigger games.

But to look at the other side of the coin, would you rate Riewoldt higher if he stood up in those two grand finals in 2009-10 and helped his team won those flags?

 

[Osho]

Oh the bi-millennial debate, Paul or James. We know who wins, but we know who should win.

 

[PhatBoy]

Probably little. And champions from other sports that I’ve mentioned in this conversation haven’t always won them all. But they have won multiple, and stood up in the bigger games.

But to look at the other side of the coin, would you rate Riewoldt higher if he stood up in those two grand finals in 2009-10 and helped his team won those flags?

I rate Riewoldt very highly anyway and though it’s easy for me to say this because I have a closer memory of what happened in the game, all I think of when I look at the 09 GF and his performance in it, was a player absolutely busting himself but who got shut down for most of it by Harry Taylor.

Of the triumvirate that gets spoken about together often - Riewoldt, Pavlich and Brown - I still rate Riewoldt the highest (as a forward) whether they win those games or not.

Obviously yes it would have enhanced that someone if he clunked 3-4 marks and turned the tide.

Hawkins’ performances in ‘11 and ‘22 have probably enhanced his reputation I guess so it’s worth considering

 

[GWT6]

Watched them both - the two greatest I have seen. Both are absolute physical freaks - strong, fast, hard at it. Both are exceptionally skillful. Both saw the game better than those around them.

I'd say Ablett had the better skills and athleticism, maybe even stronger than Carey. He also had a much better supporting cast, so had a lot more one on one opportunities.
Carey was just an absolute beast in using his strength and stamina - always seemed to have three people hanging off him, and a much better leader (aside from the obvious)

I rank Caey as the best player I have seen, and Ablett second best. It's close. If I had to choose one player from history to build a team around it would be Carey. Carried an average team to a premiership. Ablett couldn't get it done with a team of superstars. Not that premierships mean everything, but I think Carey had more impact on games/seasons.

Coincidentally, both are absolute garbage humans. If you add Leigh Matthews into the argument (and I don't because I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire) - arguably the three greatest players of all time are three of the worst humans to play the game.