Carlton v Hawthorn Ranting thread

[Wickzki]

Give us them ANY other time than a Friday after a Saturday game against Fremantle (edit: in WA against WCE/Freo) and we slaughter them by 7+ goals.

They can thank the scheduling.

 

[jonoman89]

Give us them ANY other time than a Friday after a Saturday game against Fremantle and we slaughter them by 7+ goals.

They can thank the scheduling.

You can't seriously think that? Surely?

Did you watch the first half? We didn't deserve to win.

 

[juddsentant517]

I'll start off with the positives

1) We can match it with the best: Hawthorn are a very good side. The Hawks poor second half was largely attributed to added pressure by the Blues and confidence in their own ability. When the players have confidence (Walker in particular) they are incredibly hard to stop

2) We can beat good sides without our stars firing: I thought that was Murphy's poorest game for the season, same with Judd and Scotland. Yet we still got within 2 goals of the 3rd best side in the AFL

3) Tricks in the bag: Come finals time, we have some really adaptable players who are capable in many positions. Gibbs (everywhere) Jamison (FB/FF) Henderson (CHF/CHB) Yarran (HBF/HFF) Walker (Mid/FF) Thornton (FF/HBF/FB) as well as many others who can rotate. That is a handy thing to have.

4) The clubs heart cannot be questioned anymore: Even up to last season, i think Carlton would have given up. The fact that there was a fightback is a testament to the development of the side

5) The Bye comes at a very good time: IMO, there are some very tired players out there, especially our inside midfielders who are still developing

Negatives

1) Wasted ****ing chances: Self evident
2) Inability for our talls to break a pack: I have absolutely no justification in saying this, but it seems as if Kreuzer has come back (Admirably) too heavy - which could be a benefit, but he does not know how to use his big frame, which could hurt in finals (But could benefit with a full pre-season) - it can be very frustrating when the players don't want to kick to packs
3) Silly decision making at times: Not much that can be done about that, just maturity
4) Etihad effect - been done

However, my biggest concern

5) Heavy reliance on inconsistent smalls forwards: Our forward-line has been very cohesive at times this season - and they have all worked incredibly hard over the year to improve their game (in particular Walker & Betts kicking at goal) - however there is history of small forwards struggling to have an impact come finals. Relying on Eddie & Jeffrey to kick bags - as well as an undersized FF (albeit very talented) to break packs with spectacular speckies, is unreliable and could be disastrous. Waite needs to be up and firing for Carlton to make an impact!

 

[Stig O'Hara]

We are setting our side up to be a MCG side IMO. Our contract with Etihad is up sooner rather than later and we play half our home games at the G anyway.

Last specialist Etihad team to win a flag? Essendon in 2000. Enough said.

All a bit techo for me champ.

We got smashed off the park in the first half, could've played it at Kilsyth for all it mattered.

Sorry.

 

[OldBlueFan]

We are setting our side up to be a MCG side IMO. Our contract with Etihad is up sooner rather than later and we play half our home games at the G anyway.

Last specialist Etihad team to win a flag? Essendon in 2000. Enough said.

Actually, Sticks was interviewed on MMM before the game and the commentators talked about the game not being moved to the 'G'. Sticks' response was that the AFL haven't moved a game in years and that they had an obligation for a certain number of 40 - 50K games etc etc.

But what he said after that was music to my ears, he said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Yeah, Collo did a really good deal on that one, oh well, we've got another couple of years of this and then we'll see what we can do about it"!!!

At least we know that they're gonna try to get out of that stinking shithole!

 

[Crippa#9]

I said it before the game and now....ARMFIELD is a liability. 17 points down with all the momentum, thrusting forward..has Gibbs on his own and kicks it straight to a Hawthorn player. I love the bloke's commitment but he is AND NEVER WILL be an AFL standard player. This kick I think really cost us to snatching the game.

I got criticised for questioning Warnock's marking recently, tonight......0 marks...his opponent Hale took 5 and got concussed early in the game.

GIBBS kicking 4 behind was extremely dissapointing too...

 

[JuddyBuddy]

First half was a flash back to the dark days of the spoon years. So frustrating! I was pulling my hair out and almost turned the box off!!! So many times it went in to the 50 and seemed to land at a 2 on 1 contest. They had all the answers in our forward line. Just, really poor structures from us going inside 50. No system at all. We are screaming out for a fwd 50 target and with waite way behind the 8 ball fitness wise i dunno where it will come from for the finals? Maybe we'll be able to get away with a small fwd line at the G with more space?

Anyway, we pulled it together a little in the second half and made it a bit more respectable. Probably a combo of us moving it quicker and them probablly relaxing a bit. We were never a realistic chance tho (who is when you give a team a six goal head start???)

 

[blues4flag]

Garlett has to learn the difference between low percentage and no percentage. Not making the distance thrice is unforgivable. Man has to know his range.

Duigan does a lot of good but his fumbles and skill errors are becoming a liability.

Yarran a jet of half back - if there's a harder player in the league to tackle, I haven't seen him. Jamison promising up forward bar the accuracy (none easy, though).

Walker is becoming a very, very handy footballer. Quiet first half but did very well once moved up the ground in the second half.

8 goals 18 is disastrous.

 

[JuddyBuddy]

GIBBS kicking 4 behind was extremely dissapointing too...

1.11 or whatever it was before half time says he was not alone. Terribly frustrating to watch unfold.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

All a bit techo for me champ.

We got smashed off the park in the first half, could've played it at Kilsyth for all it mattered.

Sorry.

Just responding to the contention that we should build a side capable of being Etihad specialists. I would prefer we could play anywhere but if we had to specialise, I would much rather it be at the G.

 

[JuddyBuddy]

Garlett has to learn the difference between low percentage and no percentage. Not making the distance thrice is unforgivable. Man has to know his range.

I can handle him missing the long ones, but the one in the 2nd i think it was, from about 15 out on an angle of about 10 degrees when we really needed it was just terrible. Fwds shouldn't miss those.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

First half was a flash back to the dark days of the spoon years. So frustrating! I was pulling my hair out and almost turned the box off!!! So many times it went in to the 50 and seemed to land at a 2 on 1 contest. They had all the answers in our forward line. Just, really poor structures from us going inside 50. No system at all. We are screaming out for a fwd 50 target and with waite way behind the 8 ball fitness wise i dunno where it will come from for the finals? Maybe we'll be able to get away with a small fwd line at the G with more space?

Anyway, we pulled it together a little in the second half and made it a bit more respectable. Probably a combo of us moving it quicker and them probablly relaxing a bit. We were never a realistic chance tho (who is when you give a team a six goal head start???)

We were scared of the ghosts of yesteryear in that first half. Once we changed our game plan a touch and things started to click, our confidence grew and really we dominated general play for the whole second half.

Hopefully we do take some of that confidence out of the game, despite the loss.

 

[djudd]

Pretty spot on post.

I thought Walks did really well in the second half too.

YOu can't give any team, let alone a good one, a 45 point lead and expect to reel them in. Having said that, we came close and if we had taken our chances could have pulled it off.

Walker was good after 1/2 time
Wants to take mark of the year to often needs to think first but was good i guess

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Strangely satisfied with the result, probably taken from the perspective of half time.

Hawthorn are about 2 goals better than us on the whole.

Tonight, we were woeful for the majority, and wasted momentum when we had it.

 

[audas]

We are setting our side up to be a MCG side IMO. Our contract with Etihad is up sooner rather than later and we play half our home games at the G anyway.

Last specialist Etihad team to win a flag? Essendon in 2000. Enough said.

We played what - 13 games there - we have no choice BUT be a specialist Etihad team, we are a specialist etihad team - thats where we play.

playing there every single week and not being able to come up with a game plan to handle that fact is ridiculous. Absurd. We have no choice, its the hand we are dealt - we are forced into being a specialist team at etihad.

Yes we are a hard running team which tries to avoid the hard one on one stuff - hence the usual " we want wide open running spaces" i hear from every man and his dog.

Here are some tips - stop kicking the ball into the forward line, full of short guys over the shoulder - insanity.

Stop bombing the ball long when we have short dynamic smalls filling our team - the idea of bringing it to ground would be fine if our only remaining talls (moderate talls) were not flying for the ball.

We need to kick the ball to our smalls advantage - especially in the forward line - this means kicking it to space - let the players run on to it and use our natural advantage of runing onto the ball rather than to a competition where we will clearly get beaten every time.

Kicking it to space means creating space - literally drive players into the pockets leaving one on ones for a leg race and talent at gathering the ball from a ground competition - so instead of using the formulaic kick to marking competition, create ground comp, blah, blah, blah - kick it to our advantage. Leg speed, indiginous talent, creative flair, snaps for goal - forget the marking contest we are ALWAYS LOSING.

Breaking lines into the forward line needs to be done without the bomb into the forward line - this should be done with the RUGBY dribble kick - hawkes were doing it tonight, and it is something i suggested months ago.

Kicking the ball along the ground, people may not like this visually, but it would break the lines, very, very hard to pick this up until the ball does its
"Kick" on the bounce from the end of the ball, which sets it up for a simple jump competition.

The advantage of this is that we create a competition in the forward line which is to our advantage - kicking to a marking comptetition in our forward line is pretty much always going to lose with out set up - whats more with players like Eddie, Garlett etc constantly being forced into marking competitions and walker flying there is no one left at ground level.

Another advantage of this is that the obvious advantage of almost every team over the blues is that they mark the ball and cause a turn around - the most common gripe I have seen over the past couple of years has been stop bombing it it (everyone is always raising that completely flogged horse of bringing it to ground - when that in no way advantages us).

If the blues had collingwood, hawks, saints - pretty much anyones set up with some decent tall forward timber then the bring it to ground metaphor might apply, but its simply ridiculous for carlton.

 

[Jeffy38!]

(Is this your review thread?)

I haven't seen you guys play for some time, and to be perfectly honest couldn't understand the hype pre-game. At half-time I had merely reinforced my opinion. I learnt a lot about what the Blues are about in the second half.

In a high-pressure, high-intensity game it was a question of whose skills would stand up, and for the majority of the first half, it was the Hawks. Lacking the "depth of Carlton's midfield" (according to every media source this week), and with Mitchell and Burgoyne playing out of the centre-square, it was left to the likes of Hodge, Lewis and Sewell to beat their more fancied rivals. Judd and Murphy were both noticeable in their absence.

The second half was a different story. Bailey noticeably tired, and Warnock and Kreuzer asserted themselves on the contest, spoon-feeding your midfield. In a sign of the modern-game, once Carlton started winning the centre contests and Hawks were working it out from defensive positions the game turned around, the Hawks looking shaky and the Blues with loose men in dangerous positions.

In the end a close win for the Hawks, far closer than perhaps it should have been.

Some random thoughts on your players, including some that I learnt about:

Betts - Far harder worker than I thought. Consistently working hard up to (and past) the wing to present, doubling back to link up handball, and getting to dangerous positions. It wasn't his night, but he just worked so damn hard.

Yarren - I just don't get it. Must have had 10 or more shanks when kicking under little pressure. In the first half was one of Hawthorn's biggest contributors.

Warnock - Not sure why, but he gets away with looking at the opposition ruck in contests, and uses this to his advantage. Once Bailey tired he became the most influential player on the ground.

Kreuzer - Really don't see him as a forward, he does so much around the ground and his skills are almost good enough to play as a midfielder.

Judd - Personally think he is incredibly over-rated by the general media - good ballwinner but without the skills, or even the breakaway pace of his youth. You cannot question his work ethic though. Thoroughly thrashed by a rotation of Lewis and Hodge in the first half he just kept battling. Not many sides would run-off him as much as Hawks did - perhaps a new experience for him?

Duigan - he's in my DT, but I've never really paid much attention apart from scores. Cool, calm over (and under) the ball and much stronger in the air than you'd expect. A real find.

Jamieson - forwards just get noticed so much more, don't they? Reads the ball extremely well, perhaps he will become a more permanent option for you up front.

Gibbs - absolutely wasted down back. In the midfield is influential as the outlet option due to his nous (and obvious skills). In defence he doesn't get involved in enough play unless your midfield is on top - it's a luxury at this stage.

Henderson - Did a great job outmatched on Franklin (who incidentally is learning to run onto the ball instead of wanting it on his head - much harder to defend). Good spoiling and strong in the body. Also plays the ball not the man which is refreshing to see in defenders.

Good luck for the rest of the season, finishing 5th you could well have Essendon and then Eagles in Perth....if you make the Prelim you'll have earnt it.

To carry on in your style.

Rioli - Seriously this guy is the next Aaron Davey, cannot play a tag.

Hale/Bailey - 2 dinosaurs trying to play ruck, thats right guys jump at the ball.

Sewell - I thought he was playing rugby union with all his "box kicks" tonight.

Birchall - Cameo lover.

Franklin - "wheres my free kick umpy, i didn't mark it".

Up yours!

Your coach outcouched ours for 2 1/2 qtrs and then we took over.

No.1 negative aspect of our game tonight, mistakes/turnovers.

 

[djudd]

I said it before the game and now....ARMFIELD is a liability. 17 points down with all the momentum, thrusting forward..has Gibbs on his own and kicks it straight to a Hawthorn player. I love the bloke's commitment but he is AND NEVER WILL be an AFL standard player. This kick I think really cost us to snatching the game.

GIBBS kicking 4 behind was extremely dissapointing too...

Cant argue with that
He missed a 2 metre handball to murph on the wing as well when we were coming
Not good enough really

 

[Jeffy38!]

Perceived pressure guys. It killed us.

 

[Nerv_01]

(Is this your review thread?)

I haven't seen you guys play for some time, and to be perfectly honest couldn't understand the hype pre-game. At half-time I had merely reinforced my opinion. I learnt a lot about what the Blues are about in the second half.

In a high-pressure, high-intensity game it was a question of whose skills would stand up, and for the majority of the first half, it was the Hawks. Lacking the "depth of Carlton's midfield" (according to every media source this week), and with Mitchell and Burgoyne playing out of the centre-square, it was left to the likes of Hodge, Lewis and Sewell to beat their more fancied rivals. Judd and Murphy were both noticeable in their absence.

The second half was a different story. Bailey noticeably tired, and Warnock and Kreuzer asserted themselves on the contest, spoon-feeding your midfield. In a sign of the modern-game, once Carlton started winning the centre contests and Hawks were working it out from defensive positions the game turned around, the Hawks looking shaky and the Blues with loose men in dangerous positions.

In the end a close win for the Hawks, far closer than perhaps it should have been.

Some random thoughts on your players, including some that I learnt about:

Betts - Far harder worker than I thought. Consistently working hard up to (and past) the wing to present, doubling back to link up handball, and getting to dangerous positions. It wasn't his night, but he just worked so damn hard.

Yarren - I just don't get it. Must have had 10 or more shanks when kicking under little pressure. In the first half was one of Hawthorn's biggest contributors.

Warnock - Not sure why, but he gets away with looking at the opposition ruck in contests, and uses this to his advantage. Once Bailey tired he became the most influential player on the ground.

Kreuzer - Really don't see him as a forward, he does so much around the ground and his skills are almost good enough to play as a midfielder.

Judd - Personally think he is incredibly over-rated by the general media - good ballwinner but without the skills, or even the breakaway pace of his youth. You cannot question his work ethic though. Thoroughly thrashed by a rotation of Lewis and Hodge in the first half he just kept battling. Not many sides would run-off him as much as Hawks did - perhaps a new experience for him?

Duigan - he's in my DT, but I've never really paid much attention apart from scores. Cool, calm over (and under) the ball and much stronger in the air than you'd expect. A real find.

Jamieson - forwards just get noticed so much more, don't they? Reads the ball extremely well, perhaps he will become a more permanent option for you up front.

Gibbs - absolutely wasted down back. In the midfield is influential as the outlet option due to his nous (and obvious skills). In defence he doesn't get involved in enough play unless your midfield is on top - it's a luxury at this stage.

Henderson - Did a great job outmatched on Franklin (who incidentally is learning to run onto the ball instead of wanting it on his head - much harder to defend). Good spoiling and strong in the body. Also plays the ball not the man which is refreshing to see in defenders.

Good luck for the rest of the season, finishing 5th you could well have Essendon and then Eagles in Perth....if you make the Prelim you'll have earnt it.

Keep your uninformed opinion to yourself, you say you haven't watched us play in ages yet have the balls to say Judd is overrated. The man had his worst game for the club tonight. Go watch the final quarter he played against the swans in the wet at the SCG that won the game single-handedly or any game apart from this one.

If Judd is overrated then what does that make Cyril or Hodge?

 

[djudd]

To carry on in your style.

Rioli - Seriously this guy is the next Aaron Davey, cannot play a tag.

Hale/Bailey - 2 dinosaurs trying to play ruck, thats right guys jump at the ball.

Sewell - I thought he was playing rugby union with all his "box kicks" tonight.

Birchall - Cameo lover.

Franklin - "wheres my free kick umpy, i didn't mark it".

Up yours!

Your coach outcouched ours for 2 1/2 qtrs and then we took over.

No.1 negative aspect of our game tonight, mistakes/turnovers.

I would take rioli and franklin
Could make us better you would think

 

[audas]

Strangely satisfied with the result, probably taken from the perspective of half time.

Hawthorn are about 2 goals better than us on the whole.

Tonight, we were woeful for the majority, and wasted momentum when we had it.

Hawthorn had not only put the cue back in the rack, they had their jacket on, paid their tab, called a cab and were holding the door open yelling at us to get off the air hockey table cause the pub was shut........not surprised we came back. They were watching Doggies replays at half time getting ready for next week.

When carlton isn't firing we look like Port Adelaide, Adeliade and Melbourne - no game plan, just kicking it forward to little blokes who are getting SMASHED.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Just responding to the contention that we should build a side capable of being Etihad specialists. I would prefer we could play anywhere but if we had to specialise, I would much rather it be at the G.

Very unhappy.

Were we good enough over 4 quarters - No

Could we have pinched it - Maybe

Are we a 2 man band - The big question.

 

[pigeon26]

While the first half frustrated me to no end the thing i am most angry about is that i had to put up with the commentators jizzing their pants everytime rioli got a touch. He is so overrated it is not funny.

 

[djudd]

I said it before the game and now....ARMFIELD is a liability. 17 points down with all the momentum, thrusting forward..has Gibbs on his own and kicks it straight to a Hawthorn player. I love the bloke's commitment but he is AND NEVER WILL be an AFL standard player. This kick I think really cost us to snatching the game.

I got criticised for questioning Warnock's marking recently, tonight......0 marks...his opponent Hale took 5 and got concussed early in the game.

GIBBS kicking 4 behind was extremely dissapointing too...

Warnock is not your average mean big ruckman(Jamar/jolley/cox/hudson etc)
Has he taken a contested mark this year?
Gets pushed away too easy
Soft might be the world im looking for
saying that hes a good tap ruckman but thats all
Useless resting forward

 

[SpaceCow]

For such a skilled player Gibbs seems to routinely miss shots at goal under little pressure from 40-ish out.

Also Kreuzer looked kinda bad. Constant fumbles and double grabs. Understandable to an extent though.