Fixture Changes Bulldogs v Bomberos

[The Inbetweener]

Khamis a better option to bring in for Darcy. Nick Bryan isn't a big dominant crash and bash type, Khamis can take the occasional ruck contest like he does in the VFL, and he brings much more to the forward line than Sweet would.

Agree with that although worth noting Phillips will be back for them in the ruck

 

[Dogsman16]

Season is dust if we lose this one (probably already is regardless). No Draper, no Laverde, Stringer looks underdone and Parish probably gets a suspension.

Happy to bring Lobb back for Darcy and give him more ruck time.

Smith back and wouldn’t be opposed to debuts for Buss and Gallagher. Wouldn’t mind arty back in either.

 

[Foxman98]

So dropping him for one game makes the experiment wrong

Tom Boyd was dropped but was he a success?

Lobb is a failure also he was dropped ?

I don’t go by one game he was dropped therefore failure let’s see what September hold for Melbourne who are 4th a game clear

They have literally said they've dropped him to the 2s for multiple weeks to work on his "forward craft" that's admitting it's failed Lobb and Boyd were dropped for form completely different

 

[Mojorisin]

Agree with that although worth noting Phillips will be back for them in the ruck

Phillips won't be able to Ruck aslong as English. I'd back Buku to atleast halve the contest against whichever of Bryan, Weideman or Wright they put in as a second Ruck.

 

[Next Waiting]

I haven't had much cause to be disappointed in Bevo over the journey but I will be disappointed if he selects Smith.

If I were Libba, Bont, English or Gardner, players who bust their arses every week, I'd be disappointed. And I'd be filthy on Smith for his wanting to play trumping what's best for the team. Fcuk 'm. He can play magoos. Treloar can have a spell too. I don't think either of those 2 are offering much in the way of "class" at the moment, and some of the effort is questionable.

Cleary must be well due for the call up. I'm putting him on the right wing, giving Macrae more stoppage time and also throwing Williams in there to test his mettle a bit. None of this adds any speed to our clearances but it does add ball use in Macrae and in a different sense Williams.

Play down the right wing for a change. Dale and Cleary going I50 with their bullet passes.

Also Timmy will take one for the team and play forward/ruck and we'll give Sweetie a run.

Not sure who replaces McNeil as I haven't seen any VFL to judge. But let's go with one of Artie/Gallagher or Baker

Out: JOD, Darcy, McNeil, Treloar

In: Bruce, Sweet, Cleary and one of Artie/Gallagher or Baker

 

[DognBones]

where does galhager play for footscray?

Against Sydney, his best game so far, he played wing. Has spent some time at half back during the season but his pace and run seem suited to wing.

 

[Freshwater]

I haven't had much cause to be disappointed in Bevo over the journey but I will be disappointed if he selects Smith.

If I were Libba, Bont, English or Gardner, players who bust their arses every week, I'd be disappointed. And I'd be filthy on Smith for his wanting to play trumping what's best for the team. Fcuk 'm. He can play magoos. Treloar can have a spell too. I don't think either of those 2 are offering much in the way of "class" at the moment, and some of the effort is questionable.

Cleary must be well due for the call up. I'm putting him on the right wing, giving Macrae more stoppage time and also throwing Williams in there to test his mettle a bit. None of this adds any speed to our clearances but it does add ball use in Macrae and in a different sense Williams.

Play down the right wing for a change. Dale and Cleary going I50 with their bullet passes.

Also Timmy will take one for the team and play forward/ruck and we'll give Sweetie a run.

Not sure who replaces McNeil as I haven't seen any VFL to judge. But let's go with one of Artie/Gallagher or Baker

Out: JOD, Darcy, McNeil, Treloar

In: Bruce, Sweet, Cleary and one of Artie/Gallagher or Baker

Great post!

 

[geoffjennings79]

Not sure what Khamis' VFL TOG is like, and like others I was concerned his original senior TOG in the 60s was concerning.

But his last 3 senior games last year, TOG was in the 80s. However will he maintain that if he has to play backup ruck?

If his TOG is in the 60s and 70s, you're one player down in rotations for 1/3 game.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

The calls to drop Treloar are just plain stupid.

 

[Next Waiting]

The calls to drop Treloar are just plain stupid.

Why? Why is that a (plain) stupid call?

 

[Golden_6]

Why? Why is that a (plain) stupid call?

Because it’s a stupid call and he’s been one of our best players this year. A down week (he had 12 tackles two weeks ago) doesn’t change that.

 

[Next Waiting]

Because it’s a stupid call and he’s been one of our best players this year. A down week (he had 12 tackles two weeks ago) doesn’t change that.

He's been OKish. Last week he was sh1t.

My concern is that the blokes in the engine room who carry the load and front up every week, that being Bont, Libba and English, will tire of carrying players who aren't feeling so well (but I'll play coz I want to!) or my hammies are a bit tight and whatever. I know I have.

For their sakes (Bont, Libba et al), and ours, they need an injection of ''we'll just play our guts out enthusiasm and we'll do whatever it takes to get the job done and if that's not good enough we won't hang our heads as we walk off like we're going to the gallows".

 

[Doggies7]

The Sweet stuff doesn't make sense to me. We have the current AA ruck playing very well in his natural position and we want to bring in a solid VFL ruck to push Tim forward for 70-80% of the game. Sweet still isn't great around the ground or up fwd, especially at AFL level, so we bring in a good VFL tap ruckman to weaken us at a position we have been strong at all season. One of English's biggest strength is how he blows other rucks up running them all over the ground and getting from contest to contest using his incredible aerobic capacity. That is negated playing him in the fwd pocket.

Sweet isn't playing unless English misses a game through injury and i'm perfectly fine with that.

 

[Foxman98]

The Sweet stuff doesn't make sense to me. We have the current AA ruck playing very well in his natural position and we want to bring in a solid VFL ruck to push Tim forward for 70-80% of the game. Sweet still isn't great around the ground or up fwd, especially at AFL level, so we bring in a good VFL tap ruckman to weaken us at a position we have been strong at all season. One of English's biggest strength is how he blows other rucks up running them all over the ground and getting from contest to contest using his incredible aerobic capacity. That is negated playing him in the fwd pocket.

Sweet isn't playing unless English misses a game through injury and i'm perfectly fine with that.

Can not for the life of me work it out,

Should we move Bont forward to accommodate Robbie McComb into hos better position that he dominates the VFL at too?

Sweet is the perfect back up nothing more hence Lobb is the only one to replace Darcy as he is the only one who can play forward and ruck at AFL level

 

[ringa5]

The calls to drop Treloar are just plain stupid.

Maybe just drop the 2016 manic handball game.Which hasn't been adjusted with the new players and era.
Treloar is just kicking the ball out of frustration . With this outdated mess of handball to someone that's covered.
WHOLE TEAM HAS FRUSTRATION !
Probably Smith is feeling it more than most.
Both play and we are faster and better.
In Gallagher Bruce ,Lobb, Smith,and give Cleary a chance
Out Darcy ,Odonell inj maybe Gardiner depending on match ups, Dureya, McNeil sub or out

 

[Doggies7]

Can not for the life of me work it out,

Should we move Bont forward to accommodate Robbie McComb into hos better position that he dominates the VFL at too?

Sweet is the perfect back up nothing more hence Lobb is the only one to replace Darcy as he is the only one who can play forward and ruck at AFL level

Yep Sweet is a younger Tom Campbell (I think Tom is better as a fwd too) and that's fine. Good VFL ruck, but will always be a below average AFL ruck (IMO). He will probably look to move to a Port or WC etc where he isn't behind an AA level ruck and can possibly play more AFL games which is smart and a good idea for him, but I don't think he will ever be another team's long term answer at ruck or that we will regret letting him go.

 

[Foxman98]

Yep Sweet is a younger Tom Campbell (I think Tom is better as a fwd too) and that's fine. Good VFL ruck, but will always be a below average AFL ruck (IMO). He will probably look to move to a Port or WC etc where he isn't behind an AA level ruck and can possibly play more AFL games which is smart and a good idea for him, but I don't think he will ever be another team's long term answer at ruck or that we will regret letting him go.

Tom Campbell, Andrew Phillips, Mark Pitonett, Tom Hickey, John Ceglar, Darcy Fort.

Plenty of guys making 5+ year careers out of being a back up or getting the role for a year or 2 like a Hickey type Sweet will do the same I have no doubts but moving the almost moral AA ruckman now for him who is also now 3rd in the league for hitouts to advantage suggests we no longer can even make the "tap ruckman" argument as Tim is now very good at it

 

[Next Waiting]

Maybe just drop the 2016 manic handball game.Which hasn't been adjusted with the new players and era.
Treloar is just kicking the ball out of frustration . With this outdated mess of handball to someone that's covered.
WHOLE TEAM HAS FRUSTRATION !
Probably Smith is feeling it more than most.
Both play and we are faster and better.
In Gallagher Bruce ,Lobb, Smith,and give Cleary a chance
Out Darcy ,Odonell inj maybe Gardiner depending on match ups, Dureya, McNeil sub or out

Neither Smith nor Treloar are giving us what we need with anything resembling consistency. Quick break from stoppage by foot. The pair of them don't win enough ball to break off the back of their own work so they're relying on someone to feed them...by hand. But they're not good enough for whatever reason so they panic handball to someone else or panic kick. There'd be a dozen or more players in the comp better at breaking from stoppages on the run than either of them but sadly they're the best we can offer. And then there's the defensive side.

I don't think Bevo's faith in them has been rewarded. Happy for him to cast the net wider and/or experiment.

As for Lobb, if he didn't play like he wanted it in the magoos last week he can spend another week there and reward Sweet. It's not a forever selection, unless it exceeds expectations. But Lobb, Smith and Treloar can be made to work their arses off to get back in IMO....if it's in them.

 

[dogwatch]

Neither Smith nor Treloar are giving us what we need with anything resembling consistency. Quick break from stoppage by foot. The pair of them don't win enough ball to break off the back of their own work so they're relying on someone to feed them...by hand. But they're not good enough for whatever reason so they panic handball to someone else or panic kick. There'd be a dozen or more players in the comp better at breaking from stoppages on the run than either of them but sadly they're the best we can offer. And then there's the defensive side.

I don't think Bevo's faith in them has been rewarded. Happy for him to cast the net wider and/or experiment.

As for Lobb, if he didn't play like he wanted it in the magoos last week he can spend another week there and reward Sweet. It's not a forever selection, unless it exceeds expectations. But Lobb, Smith and Treloar can be made to work their arses off to get back in IMO....if it's in them.

A bit harsh I reckon NW. There are reports both are playing with injuries, illness, or whatever.

You may not subscribe to it but the Ching is a useful (if rough) guide to form. Treloar was voted third or fourth best player for us in each game from round 13-16 (as well as three vote-winning performances earlier in the season including a BoG). That run of four games with votes included wins as well as losses, so he’s not just a flat track bully. Until the Collingwood game Treloar was averaging 5.5 tackles a game, higher than any season since 2017 (his 2nd year with the Pies). He has also been averaging 11.67 CPs this year, his best return as a WB player.

If you believe reports, he has been playing with some niggles in his last two games. An injured player will often look slow, sloppy or half-arsed.

It’s a little more complex with Smith. He was running into some form with votes in successive games in Rounds 8-10 culminating in a BoG against Adelaide. But no votes since then. His defensive and disposal weaknesses have been much discussed but they are nothing new. Again there have been reports of injury and illness. I acknowledge though that Smith’s form has been erratic since mid-2022.

Who do we blame if they play when ill or injured? Seems like a lot are blaming the player. I’d have thought the primary responsibility lay with our medical staff. There’d be a little more proportion of the blame on the player if he has been less than honest about his condition … but have we any evidence of that?

 

[Tyrohad]

In: an actual gameplan that doesn't involve costantly trying to break the world record for most disposal in a game by a team.

Out: the crabbing, gutless footy the sees the ball spend more time on the wings. It does **** all to help stop opposition from scoring on turnovers

 

[Next Waiting]

A bit harsh I reckon NW. There are reports both are playing with injuries, illness, or whatever.

You may not subscribe to it but the Ching is a useful (if rough) guide to form. Treloar was voted third or fourth best player for us in each game from round 13-16 (as well as three vote-winning performances earlier in the season including a BoG). That run of four games with votes included wins as well as losses, so he’s not just a flat track bully. Until the Collingwood game Treloar was averaging 5.5 tackles a game, higher than any season since 2017 (his 2nd year with the Pies). He has also been averaging 11.67 CPs this year, his best return as a WB player.

If you believe reports, he has been playing with some niggles in his last two games. An injured player will often look slow, sloppy or half-arsed.

It’s a little more complex with Smith. He was running into some form with votes in successive games in Rounds 8-10 culminating in a BoG against Adelaide. But no votes since then. His defensive and disposal weaknesses have been much discussed but they are nothing new. Again there have been reports of injury and illness. I acknowledge though that Smith’s form has been erratic since mid-2022.

Who do we blame if they play when ill or injured? Seems like a lot are blaming the player. I’d have thought the primary responsibility lay with our medical staff. There’d be a little more proportion of the blame on the player if he has been less than honest about his condition … but have we any evidence of that?

TBH DW, I don't think either of them are anything special. When you look at the midfield blend/mix, what we're missing is a quick, skilled running mid. I don't think either of them measure up to the best in the competition.

If you consider that most likely a team is going to have to beat both Port and Collinwood to win this year, well there's Daicos, De Goey, Butters, Rozee and JHF, all much better than either Smith or Treloar skill wise and breaking from stoppages, just in those 2 teams without looking too much further.

So I tend to think that what they (Smith and Treloar) add is second rate in comparison to teams in contention. If you accept that premise (and you may not), I'm not sure trying to replicate the likes of the 5 Pie and Port players mentioned above with lesser players of a more fragile nature is going to get us very far and we might be better (this year) accepting our slow but skilled ball users at the stoppages, Bont, Libba, Macrae and Daniel, and then adding something different that isn't a poor imitation of the best running mids going around.

I grant you there is no obvious solution but neither is Treloar nor Smith an obvious solution....in my view.

"There’d be a little more proportion of the blame on the player if he has been less than honest about his condition … but have we any evidence of that?"

I can't answer that but the players that played with them probably can.

 

[_Mike_]

IMO we’re seeing the gap in the midfield that was created when Dunkley left. Smith has had an interrupted season, Adz hasn’t been running at 100% and we’re down a big bodied midfielder to cover.

 

[dogwatch]

TBH DW, I don't think either of them are anything special. When you look at the midfield blend/mix, what we're missing is a quick, skilled running mid. I don't think either of them measure up to the best in the competition.

If you consider that most likely a team is going to have to beat both Port and Collinwood to win this year, well there's Daicos, De Goey, Butters, Rozee and JHF, all much better than either Smith or Treloar skill wise and breaking from stoppages, just in those 2 teams without looking too much further.

So I tend to think that what they (Smith and Treloar) add is second rate in comparison to teams in contention. If you accept that premise (and you may not), I'm not sure trying to replicate the likes of the 5 Pie and Port players mentioned above with lesser players of a more fragile nature is going to get us very far and we might be better (this year) accepting our slow but skilled ball users at the stoppages, Bont, Libba, Macrae and Daniel, and then adding something different that isn't a poor imitation of the best running mids going around.

I grant you there is no obvious solution but neither is Treloar nor Smith an obvious solution....in my view.

"There’d be a little more proportion of the blame on the player if he has been less than honest about his condition … but have we any evidence of that?"

I can't answer that but the players that played with them probably can.

Fair comment NW although you’re correct that I won’t agree with some of it.

You’ve named five elite line-breaking players but Treloar and Smith surely don’t have to be the equal of those five to justify their own existence. It’s a flawed comparison in my view. On that measure few others anywhere in the league would qualify. And to press the point, who have those clubs got that can match the muscular line breaking ability of Bont? Not all midfields have to be identically endowed to be effective.

I certainly agree that lack of speed through the middle IS a big problem. It has been exacerbated by the simultaneous injuries / form drops to Treloar and Smith but it urgently needs to be addressed in the off season.

Treloar’s career has peaked and he won’t get any better but I’d argue he still has a lot to offer this year and probably in 2024 … when fit.

Smith is still young and has been our great midfield hope since he was drafted, especially with his good form as a 19-20yo. He still has that potential but he has stagnated.

I was shouted down when I said if we can’t get the best out of him (or a close version of his best) that we’d be better off getting a top 6-8 pick in a trade for him. I still think that’s true but I repeat that’s contingent on us not being able to develop him when he’s fully fit.

In the best of worlds we do keep him and turn him into that elite line breaking speedy midfielder with vision and accurate disposal and a strong defensive capability that we all crave. We probably have a year or maybe two to get that right, but the sooner the better. I’m just not terribly confident the current bunch in charge are the ones who can do it (but that’s a separate debate!)

 

[doggiesin08]

The Sweet stuff doesn't make sense to me. We have the current AA ruck playing very well in his natural position and we want to bring in a solid VFL ruck to push Tim forward for 70-80% of the game. Sweet still isn't great around the ground or up fwd, especially at AFL level, so we bring in a good VFL tap ruckman to weaken us at a position we have been strong at all season. One of English's biggest strength is how he blows other rucks up running them all over the ground and getting from contest to contest using his incredible aerobic capacity. That is negated playing him in the fwd pocket.

Sweet isn't playing unless English misses a game through injury and i'm perfectly fine with that.

The best thing about bringing in Lobb is we have for the most part avoided the play Sweet / English forward discussion on this forum all year. That’s almost worth a 2nd round pick alone for me.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

To depressing to think about it but if we lose to the bombers we could drop to as low as 12th if:

Carlton beat WCE- Certain to happen
Tigers beat Hawks- Fairly certain
GWS beat GC - More than likely
Crows beat Dees - Upset but possible.