Unofficial Preview Changes & Discussion Round 3 v Magpies @ Gabba Easter Thursday.

[dlanod]

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We're still looking for the most beloved of BF Lions Board posters - preview writers!

 

[3KZ is Football]

Until McKenna returns I'd like to see a regular 6-7 players given a chance to settle in. And I couldn't agree more with the reasoning for Ah Chee and Prior. We lose 2 attacking sparks in Kiddy and McKenna. We don't have 2 sparks to replace them with. Ah Chee and Prior while not as creative, they are defensively very sound. I'll take that for half a dozen games, forming some sort of combination.

To do the same with the tall defenders to give every opportunity to build a combination do, Andrews, Payne and Doedee start now, v Pies? Do we drop Lester, bite the bullet with Payne, give them a chance to settle?

I'd be happy to lock in

Starce, Payne, Doedee
Ah Chee, Andrews, Wilmot

Prior

I think they could build a pretty solid combo. I'd hope they could grow as a unit. I know Ah Chee wants to play fwd but I reckon at this moment he is best for the team down back. We did get him to play that role, and he was good when he did. Even when Mckenna returns I think Cal down there adds a bit more spark and smarts.

Yeah nah.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Like his top. Hope they play like Fitzroy 1983 and not Fitzroy 1996 against Collingwood.

 

[briztoon]

Until McKenna returns I'd like to see a regular 6-7 players given a chance to settle in. And I couldn't agree more with the reasoning for Ah Chee and Prior. We lose 2 attacking sparks in Kiddy and McKenna. We don't have 2 sparks to replace them with. Ah Chee and Prior while not as creative, they are defensively very sound. I'll take that for half a dozen games, forming some sort of combination.

To do the same with the tall defenders to give every opportunity to build a combination do, Andrews, Payne and Doedee start now, v Pies? Do we drop Lester, bite the bullet with Payne, give them a chance to settle?

I'd be happy to lock in

Starce, Payne, Doedee
Ah Chee, Andrews, Wilmot

Prior

I think they could build a pretty solid combo. I'd hope they could grow as a unit. I know Ah Chee wants to play fwd but I reckon at this moment he is best for the team down back. We did get him to play that role, and he was good when he did. Even when Mckenna returns I think Cal down there adds a bit more spark and smarts.

That’s pretty much what I think as well.

 

[M Malice]

I'd be happy to lock in

Starce, Payne, Doedee
Ah Chee, Andrews, Wilmot

Prior

I agree with you and Briz, the only worry is there is no player there willing to take on a game breaking kick like Kiddy, I know hard to come by but if Zorko is passable defensively might be worth a go back there, in form he takes on difficult kicks. He could come in for Prior.... or Ah Chee who would go up the ground and perform another role.

The Saints certainly got the elite kicking down back covered with Wanganeen-Milera and Sinclair, both guns.

 

[KissKiss]

Yeah nah.

Why not?

Or are you just disagreeing with dropping Lester (which is fair as he doesnt deserve it - although if he was he should be made sub).

On balance I still struggle to see Lester playing at the same time as Doedee and I dont think either of them are the right physical fit to play second tall defender. But once Gardiner was hurt it was very clear that we need another bigger body to help out Andrews

 

[3KZ is Football]

Why not?

Or are you just disagreeing with dropping Lester (which is fair as he doesnt deserve it - although if he was he should be made sub).

On balance I still struggle to see Lester playing at the same time as Doedee and I dont think either of them are the right physical fit to play second tall defender. But once Gardiner was hurt it was very clear that we need another bigger body to help out Andrews

I don’t see, given the loss of two key defenders in Gardiner and McKenna, we benefit from dropping an in form and consistent performer like Lester. His leadership and the role he plays in engineering our transition out of defence are both vital components in our backline. Payne has only just been dropped and without playing a game in the reserves, where he sorely needs to find form, it makes no sense to reinstate him. Perhaps you should wait to see how he goes in the Reserves this weekend Berrygood ? If Payne dishes up another stinker, is he still an automatic inclusion in the Seniors against Collingwood? I think not. We need experience and stability in our backline. A far stronger defence would be:

FB: Starcevich Andrews Doedee
HB: Wilmott Lester AhChee

I 100% agree with you, we should name Prior as an interchange to bolster the defence.

 

[Berrygood]

I don’t see, given the loss of two key defenders in Gardiner and McKenna, we benefit from dropping an in form and consistent performer like Lester. His leadership and the role he plays in engineering our transition out of defence are both vital components in our backline. Payne has only just been dropped and without playing a game in the reserves, where he sorely needs to find form, it makes no sense to reinstate him. Perhaps you should wait to see how he goes in the Reserves this weekend Berrygood ? If Payne dishes up another stinker, is he still an automatic inclusion in the Seniors against Collingwood? I think not. We need experience and stability in our backline. A far stronger defence would be:

FB: Starcevich Andrews Doedee
HB: Wilmott Lester AhChee

I’d name Prior as an interchange to bolster the defence.

I hope Payne does have a run in the ressies and I will be taking note. I'm just posing questions to stimulate conversation. Discussing the "what if's" or "would you" is all we have until there's more info. I'd be just as happy with your 7 if we think it's tall enough v Pies. Just stick with them, see if they make a cohesive unit, give them time, is more the point I'm trying at.

 

[On the quiet]

Was reading Zorko has put his hand up to go back. So I'd reckon if it's out like that, it's likely to happen. In a distributing role I think works, defensively a concern. Mentioned earlier in thread by someone, he is too short to compete in the air but Starce, Lester, Doedee (if he plays) all read the ball in the air pretty well, should be able to cover for him. We've been lacking ground work down there, Zorko should compensate. He will need a lesson when the ball comes in quick and low, that's when he'll be caught short.

All eyes on the back 7 to be selected. Up against Miochek, Frampton/Howe, and Cox/Cameron, I think we're going to need a bit of height down back. If Payne is fit, he should have a "get ya confidence back" game in the ressies. The only way I can see him not play v Pies is if he is injured. If he is out, I think we've gotta break the glass and consider Joyce. We can't just have Andrews on his own v those talls. Sure Joyce gave some free kicks away but at least he was close enough to his man to do so. Other than that I didn't think he was terrible when he played.

Conceivably the back 7 could be

Starce, Joyce, Lester
Zorko, Andrews, Wilmot

Doedee.

Ah Chee, could definitely rotate with Zorko. In fact I think I'd rather Cal back there than Zorko full stop.

We've also gotta have enough speed back there to cover Elliot, Hill, McCreery, Shultz.

Who'd be a selector? Lol.

I don’t see, given the loss of two key defenders in Gardiner and McKenna, we benefit from dropping an in form and consistent performer like Lester. His leadership and the role he plays in engineering our transition out of defence are both vital components in our backline. Payne has only just been dropped and without playing a game in the reserves, where he sorely needs to find form, it makes no sense to reinstate him. Perhaps you should wait to see how he goes in the Reserves this weekend Berrygood ? If Payne dishes up another stinker, is he still an automatic inclusion in the Seniors against Collingwood? I think not. We need experience and stability in our backline. A far stronger defence would be:

FB: Starcevich Andrews Doedee
HB: Wilmott Lester AhChee

I’d name Prior as an interchange to bolster the defence.

3KZ you obviously haven't watched the 3rd Q last week against Freo where Lester was directly involved in 3 of Freo's goals as he was playing KPD role with Gardiner off. I have to disagree with you and do not think at 31/32 years of age Ryan should be an automatic selection. Collingwood don't appear to have an overly tall forward line so I would be inclined to play Lester next week.

 

[KissKiss]

I don’t see, given the loss of two key defenders in Gardiner and McKenna, we benefit from dropping an in form and consistent performer like Lester. His leadership and the role he plays in engineering our transition out of defence are both vital components in our backline. Payne has only just been dropped and without playing a game in the reserves, where he sorely needs to find form, it makes no sense to reinstate him. Perhaps you should wait to see how he goes in the Reserves this weekend Berrygood ? If Payne dishes up another stinker, is he still an automatic inclusion in the Seniors against Collingwood? I think not. We need experience and stability in our backline. A far stronger defence would be:

FB: Starcevich Andrews Doedee
HB: Wilmott Lester AhChee

I 100% agree with you, we should name Prior as an interchange to bolster the defence.

I understand your position, Im just not convinced that Lester and/or Doedee play tall enough to take on the really big guys. Ideally we need another big to take the super talls which also can allow Andrews to float off more.

Maybe it should be Joyce in or maybe we have to risk Payne playing through his issues. He had a bad game the other week. But it was also against one of the best forwards in the comp. Curnow has well beaten many defenders. Although the manner of how Payne was beaten was concerning.

Really I think Payne should be a lock in our team if we want to win the year. I just dont know how we can get him back to the form he was in 12 months ago

 

[3KZ is Football]

I understand your position, Im just not convinced that Lester and/or Doedee play tall enough to take on the really big guys. Ideally we need another big to take the super talls which also can allow Andrews to float off more.

Maybe it should be Joyce in or maybe we have to risk Payne playing through his issues. He had a bad game the other week. But it was also against one of the best forwards in the comp. Curnow has well beaten many defenders. Although the manner of how Payne was beaten was concerning.

Really I think Payne should be a lock in our team if we want to win the year. I just dont know how we can get him back to the form he was in 12 months ago

I mentioned Joyce also earlier in the thread, but I don’t see enough reserves to judge. It did receive a single word No from one poster.

 

[3KZ is Football]

3KZ you obviously haven't watched the 3rd Q last week against Freo where Lester was directly involved in 3 of Freo's goals as he was playing KPD role with Gardiner off. I have to disagree with you and do not think at 31/32 years of age Ryan should be an automatic selection. Collingwood don't appear to have an overly tall forward line so I would be inclined to play Lester next week.

Yes and no. Andrews and Lester both had a hard day at the office, but that was more a function of us getting killed out of the middle when we were having our TINT (Traditional In-game Nap Time). Very few defenders would have been able to stem the tide. I don’t count it as a black mark against Lester when Andrews trips over and his man wins a marking contest against Lester, while he is also trying to keep his opponent out. That was one of those goals.

 

[Gadzorks]

Yes and no. Andrews and Lester both had a hard day at the office, but that was more a function of us getting killed out of the middle when we were having our TINT (Traditional In-game Nap Time). Very few defenders would have been able to stem the tide. I don’t count it as a black mark against Lester when Andrews trips over and his man wins a marking contest against Lester, while he is also trying to keep his opponent out. That was one of those goals.

Love TINT. That should stick.

Tinting time is done could become a chant

 

[On the quiet]

Yes and no. Andrews and Lester both had a hard day at the office, but that was more a function of us getting killed out of the middle when we were having our TINT (Traditional In-game Nap Time). Very few defenders would have been able to stem the tide. I don’t count it as a black mark against Lester when Andrews trips over and his man wins a marking contest against Lester, while he is also trying to keep his opponent out. That was one of those goals.

Exactly, and yet Payne gets pillared for a poor third Q against Carlton, letting in 3 goals against the best forward in the game.

I am talking about Lester staying on the ground and not competing in the air when (I believe it is Cox) scores Freo's first goal of the 3rd Q, and then Amiss runs behind him into an open goal and then he is beaten easily by Tracey 1 v 1 late in the 3rd Q under the post. I haven't even bothered watching the replay of the 4th Q.

I am not saying Lester should be dropped against the Pies, as Frampton will play back, and therefore Pies forward line will not be overly tall, but at 31/32 years he is not a KPD and does not take on the dangerous kicks or provides pace to give us run out of the backline, so I just don't think he should be an automatic selection each week.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Exactly, and yet Payne gets pillared for a poor third Q against Carlton, letting in 3 goals against the best forward in the game.

I am talking about Lester staying on the ground and not competing in the air when (I believe it is Cox) scores Freo's first goal of the 3rd Q, and then Amiss runs behind him into an open goal and then he is beaten easily by Tracey 1 v 1 late in the 3rd Q under the post. I haven't even bothered watching the replay of the 4th Q.

I am not saying Lester should be dropped against the Pies, as Frampton will play back, and therefore Pies forward line will not be overly tall, but at 31/32 years he is not a KPD and does not take on the dangerous kicks or provides pace to give us run out of the backline, so I just don't think he should be an automatic selection each week.

I agree. Very few players should be automatic selections. Our problem has been that we have had too many players who have been automatic selections, irrespective of form. Lester needs to fight to keep his place in the team and I would like to think that Berry, Rayner, McCarthy, Starcevich, Wilmott, Fletcher, Robertson, Dunkley, McInerney, Answerth, Bailey, Ah Chee, Lyons and Zorko are under the same pressure. As far as I am concerned, the only automatic selections for the seniors are Andrews, Neale, Cameron and Daniher.

 

[martinson]

Gotta agree with 3KZ on this one.

No rationale at all for dropping Lester who hasn't been too bad when other guys have stunk it up.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Love TINT. That should stick.

Tinting time is done could become a chant

#TINT

 

[Nathan Barley]

Gotta agree with 3KZ on this one.

No rationale at all for dropping Lester who hasn't been too bad when other guys have stunk it up.

But what has he actually done? Has he shut down a dangerous forward? Has he thwarted several attempts for oppositions entering inside 50? Has he started several scoring chains?

He plays on the weakest forwards. Isn't helping out the key backs. Isn't getting dangerous off half back.

He's solid and a great backup but there's a clear reason why we went hard after a gun like Doedee

 

[On the quiet]

I agree. Very few players should be automatic selections. Our problem has been that we have had too many players who have been automatic selections, irrespective of form. Lester needs to fight to keep his place in the team and I would like to think that Berry, Rayner, McCarthy, Starcevich, Wilmott, Fletcher, Robertson, Dunkley, McInerney, Answerth, Bailey, Ah Chee, Lyons and Zorko are under the same pressure. As far as I am concerned, the only automatic selections for the seniors are Andrews, Neale, Cameron and Daniher.

Gotta agree with 3KZ on this one.

No rationale at all for dropping Lester who hasn't been too bad when other guys have stunk it up.

I am not calling for Lester to be dropped against the Pies, but I reckon 'Nathan Barley' nailed it with his post why we got Doedee

 

[3KZ is Football]

But what has he actually done? Has he shut down a dangerous forward? Has he thwarted several attempts for oppositions entering inside 50? Has he started several scoring chains?

He plays on the weakest forwards. Isn't helping out the key backs. Isn't getting dangerous off half back.

He's solid and a great backup but there's a clear reason why we went hard after a gun like Doedee

This is just nonsense, but that’s ok.

Lester played 19 games last season and he has played the last 16 games straight.
Almost everyone who has watched him during this period has recognised the way he has reinvented and rejuvenated himself. He had proven to be a desperate and hard at it defender and a real backline general. He manages our exits from kick ins and is always running to give an exit option. Last season he was notable for his intercept marking, his rebounding up the middle and starting off multiple handball and quick possession chains that resulted in goals. He had 25 Inside 50’s for the season which isn’t bad for a defender. He even kicked a pivotal goal against Carlton in the Preliminary Final. If you choose not to see what is completely evident, then that is on you. Last season Lester averaged 87% game time and against Geelong he played 100%. Clearly he is a player that Fagan has come to rely on in defence and along with Harris Andrews, he has proven to be super reliable. Fagan keeps selecting him, so he must be doing something right.

The reason we went so hard after Doedee include a number of considerations:
1. Gardiner is injury prone, managing only 4 games last year.
2. Lester will be 32 this year and can’t play forever.
3. Jack Payne’s form has been ‘indifferent’ to say the least since about Round 16 last year.
4. We need to add depth to our defensive stocks.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride Nathan.

#Lester200
#FrogMarch
#LesterArmy

 

[M Malice]

Almost everyone who has watched him during this period has recognised the way he has reinvented and rejuvenated himself. He had proven to be a desperate and hard at it defender and a real backline general. He manages our exits from kick ins and is always running to give an exit option. Last season he was notable for his intercept marking, his rebounding up the middle and starting off multiple handball and quick possession chains that resulted in goals. He had 25 Inside 50’s for the season which isn’t bad for a defender. He even kicked a pivotal goal against Carlton in the Preliminary Final. If you choose not to see what is completely evident, then that is on you. Last season Lester averaged 87% game time and against Geelong he played 100%. Clearly he is a player that Fagan has come to rely on in defence and along with Harris Andrews, he has proven to be super reliable. Fagan keeps selecting him, so he must be doing something right.

The reason we went so hard after Doedee include a number of considerations:
1. Gardiner is injury prone, managing only 4 games last year.
2. Lester will be 32 this year and can’t play forever.
3. Jack Payne’s form has been ‘indifferent’ to say the least since about Round 16 last year.
4. We need to add depth to our defensive stocks.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride Nathan.

#Lester200
#FrogMarch
#LesterArmy

"Fagan keeps selecting him, so he must be doing something right"

Good point you raise there 3KZ BUT what about the fact that Fagan keeps selecting the likes of Cam Rayner and Jarrod Berry? Could that mean they must be doing something right as well?

FWIW I think Lester has been really good since coming into the side last season, he is serviceable if he plays on the 3rd taller opposition type, if needed for a 1st/2nd tall or small he gets caught out, Doedee and Gardiner both play on taller and smaller players to a better degree than Lester if needed.

With all our backline options fit and in their best form this would be my back 7 for finals.. excluding Keidean Coleman of course.

Brandon Starcevich, Jack Payne, Connor McKenna.
Darcy Wilmot, Harris Andrews, Tom Doedee.

Noah Answerth.

If Dayne Zorko is tried and looks good back there I'd go him over Answerth, we need his elite disposal by foot with Kiddy gone for the year.

 

[3KZ is Football]

"Fagan keeps selecting him, so he must be doing something right"

Good point you raise there 3KZ BUT what about the fact that Fagan keeps selecting the likes of Cam Rayner and Jarrod Berry? Could that mean they must be doing something right as well?

FWIW I think Lester has been really good since coming into the side last season, he is serviceable if he plays on the 3rd taller opposition type, if needed for a 1st/2nd tall or small he gets caught out, Doedee and Gardiner both play on taller and smaller players to a better degree than Lester if needed.

With all our backline options fit and in their best form this would be my back 7 for finals.. excluding Keidean Coleman of course.

Brandon Starcevich, Jack Payne, Connor McKenna.
Darcy Wilmot, Harris Andrews, Tom Doedee.

Noah Answerth.

If Dayne Zorko is tried and looks good back there I'd go him over Answerth, we need his elite disposal by foot with Kiddy gone for the year.

I did have a bit of a grin at your first point. The only difference is that Fagan has shown he will drop Lester without any compunction. The two players you mention are basically undroppable under Fagan. Lester strings two bad games together and he is gone. The other two can stink it up or underperform week after week and still be selected.

Career Disposal Efficiency
Dayne Zorko: 68.7%
Ryan Lester: 76.3%

Lester has been doing really well distributing and exiting our defensive 50 in his current Senior stint.

 

[M Malice]

Career Disposal Efficiency
Dayne Zorko: 68.7%
Ryan Lester: 76.3%

Lester has been doing really well distributing and exiting our defensive 50 in his current Senior stint.

Zorko is much more likely to take on a breaking the game open kick than Lester, Lester takes the low risk option almost always, which is fine he knows his limitations.

We need someone down back who can take the game on with elite disposal now that Kiddy wont be an option for the rest of 2024, we don't want 7 players in the backline who have their main option as going long down the line.

 

[3KZ is Football]

“On the field he's as disciplined and determined as they come. You simply don't last this long if you're not.

In the 2020 Finals series he outplayed Jack Riewoldt and Patrick Dangerfield in his two primary one-on-one assignments, and there's little doubt he's playing as well now as then.

It's his spot until his form drops off – it's going to be hard for us to not pick him," Daly said.

- Dany Daly’s assessment.

Hopping on with it: Why 'Froggy' has won Lions hearts on and off field

He's been in and out of the side throughout his 167-game career, but Ryan Lester remains one of Brisbane's most dependable players

www.afl.com.au

Lester has been selected for every game since.

 

[Berrygood]

I understand your position, Im just not convinced that Lester and/or Doedee play tall enough to take on the really big guys. Ideally we need another big to take the super talls which also can allow Andrews to float off more.

Maybe it should be Joyce in or maybe we have to risk Payne playing through his issues. He had a bad game the other week. But it was also against one of the best forwards in the comp. Curnow has well beaten many defenders. Although the manner of how Payne was beaten was concerning.

Really I think Payne should be a lock in our team if we want to win the year. I just dont know how we can get him back to the form he was in 12 months ago

That's the dilemma. How does Payne recapture that form? He looks like a bloke that needs a cuddle. One of those players that needs a lot of one on one time. Give it to him. Show him his good footage and the bad. Pump him up if needed. I'd be saying, mate have a run in the ressies this weekend, get out there and enjoy the game, play with instinct, blow out some cobwebs, get some confidence. Then comeback v Pies and show us what we missed in the GF. We really need ya.

Gee's I hope he can find that form sooner rather than later.

 

[lionshine]

Zorko is much more likely to take on a breaking the game open kick than Lester, Lester takes the low risk option almost always, which is fine he knows his limitations.

We need someone down back who can take the game on with elite disposal now that Kiddy wont be an option for the rest of 2024, we don't want 7 players in the backline who have their main option as going long down the line.

Lester does often take the safe kick option which is fine and even preferable but I have to say on 3KZ “rejuvenation” point, I did like Lester’s willingness last year to attack through the corridor with some agressive run and clever handballs to Wilmot/McKenna running through traffic breaking the opposition’s press open.

The art of the handball is an underrated skill and Lester is one of our best along with Neale in that regard. Some of Lester’s handballs in heavy traffic exiting defensive 50 and setting up our runners was elite and not many of our players would have the same skill to execute. I should mention Rayner is also quite good at getting a handball off in tight to a teammate running past.