Christians are easily startled, but they'll soon be back. And in greater numbers 36:11

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Vdubs]

Plenty of Christians do have visions. Google, actually thousands. I know a couple of them, Jesus apparently appeared to them and told them to do something.

Testimony: - How Jesus Appeared Physically to me; Joshua

Testimony: - This is how Jesus Appeared Physically to me. I saw Him with my eyes, we talked one on one as He revealed my ministry. This is my testimony. It was

www.christiantruthcenter.com

A sample


As i said, selection bias. My life was dramatically changed after deconversion. But you are not interested in that experience. Millions of Christians are converting into Islam, you are not interested in that.



Nope, it shows belief in Jesus is not important. Belief in Krishna is just as good.

Polytheism it is then?


Have you read mother teresas letter to the Pope? she said after serving the lord for over 70 years, the lord never once appeared to her. Is there a more devout Christian than her? But Jesus is busy appearing to rich white people.

It's selection bias.


Catholicism is also Christianity. Half of your heathens are Catholics, but the point being, you were always a believer...you just needed a trigger. This is the same for Muslims and Hindus too. My mum was an unbeliever, but once when i was ill she went and prayed to Krishna and since then she never looked back.

There's no way to falsify such claims. Believers like you are very stubborn

Good points, nothing you said there is incorrect, apart from polytheism, afaik. I get that Hindus believe in a single God with many manifestations...

While belief in God is nearly universal in India, the kind of God(s) that Indians believe in varies. Majorities or pluralities of Muslims (66%), Christians (68%), Sikhs (57%) and Buddhists (39%) say “there is only one God.” By contrast, most Hindus (61%) and Jains (54%) say that there is “only one God with many manifestations.”
In all of India’s major religious communities, much smaller shares believe that “there are many gods,” including just 7% of Hindus who choose this option from the three possible responses provided.
In most regions, at least half of Hindus believe in one God with many manifestations, but in the Northeast, most Hindus believe in one God alone (56%). And Hindus in the South are somewhat more likely than those in other regions to say there are many gods (18% vs. 7% nationally).
Similarly, Southern Muslims (10%) and Christians (8%) are more likely than Muslims and Christians elsewhere in India to say there are many gods.

Many Hindus feel close to Shiva​

The survey asked Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains who say they believe in God which god they feel closest to, seeking to measure the concept of ishta devata (“personal god”). Respondents were shown 15 images of gods on a card as possible options (though they could also name other deities), and they could select up to three gods.23
Hindus most commonly feel close to Shiva (44%). In Hindu temples, Shiva is represented both through his male form as well as a symbol, known as a lingam. In Hindu philosophy, Shiva’s role in destruction does not necessarily have a negative connotation. In fact, destruction is considered central to creation as it may pave the way for beneficial change.
In addition, roughly one-third of Hindus feel close to Hanuman (35%), the god who symbolizes strength and loyalty, or Ganesha (32%), the remover of obstacles who is especially revered before starting new projects. Among Jains, the most popular responses are Lakshmi (20%) and Ganesha (17%), although six-in-ten Jains (59%) say there is “another god” not named by the survey to whom they feel closest.
Among Sikhs and Buddhists, no single god is chosen by more than one-in-ten respondents (although about three-in-ten in each group choose the “another god” option). An additional 29% of Sikhs decline to answer the question, and one-third of Buddhists do not believe in God and thus did not receive this question.

While Shiva is the most common deity Hindus feel close to nationally, a significantly smaller share of Hindus in India’s West feel this connection (30%). In the West, instead, the most common deity Hindus feel close to is Ganesha (46%).
In the Northeast, fully 46% of Hindus say they feel closest to Krishna, often depicted as a lover and prankster, whose dialogue with a prince during battle is the basis for the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna is more popular in the Northeast than in any other region. And Hanuman and Lord Ram, the god of chivalry and virtue and hero of the epic Ramayana, find far less affinity among Hindus in the Northeast than they do elsewhere.
Noticeable shares of Hindus in the South feel close to several deities who have hardly any Hindu followers elsewhere in the country: Murugan (14% of South Hindus), Ayyappa (13%) and Meenakshi (7%).

Hindu men are far more likely than Hindu women to feel close to Hanuman (41% vs. 29%). Meanwhile, Hindu women are more likely than men to say they are closest to the goddess Lakshmi (33% vs. 22%).

Many Indians believe God can be manifested in other people​

Most Indians say that God can be manifested in nature, such as mountains, rivers and trees (69%). Additionally, a majority say God can be manifested in animals (62%) and the same share say God can appear in people. Hindus are much more likely than those in other religious communities to believe that each of these manifestations is possible.
About three-quarters of Hindus say that God can be manifested in nature (76%) – the most common manifestation Hindus say is possible. By contrast, Muslims and Christians are more likely to believe that God can be manifested in people (44% and 46%, respectively) than in nature or animals.
Indians who have a favorable view of the BJP are significantly more likely than Indians who disapprove of the ruling party to think God can manifest in any of these ways. For instance, while two-thirds of BJP supporters say God can be manifested in animals, roughly half of BJP detractors (52%) share this belief.
Indians’ beliefs on how God can be manifested tie into where they live. Urban Indians are less likely than rural Indians to say God can be manifested in nature, animals and people. And Southern Indians are the least likely to say that God can be manifested in people.
Half of Indians believe God can be manifested in lower-caste people

Survey respondents who said God can be manifested in people were then asked if God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste or, separately, who have done bad things in their life. Just over half of Indians say God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste (53%). Fewer people say God can be manifested in people who have done bad things in their life (30%).
People who belong to Scheduled Castes and Tribes and other lower castes are more likely than those in General Category castes to say God can be manifested in a person who is of a lower caste (56% vs. 48%). But there are no significant differences in responses by caste on whether God can be manifested in people who have done bad deeds.
Hindus are more likely than members of other religious groups to say that God can manifest in lower-caste people and in people who have done bad things, in part because Hindus are more inclined than people from other religious communities to say God can be manifested in people at all.

Indians almost universally ask God for good health, prosperity, forgiveness​

Indians who expressed a belief in God were also asked if they ever ask God to give them or their families several things: good health, prosperity and forgiveness. At least nine-in-ten Indians ask God for each. Buddhists are the least likely to ever ask God for these things, but much of this is because one-third of Buddhists say they do not believe in God; the vast majority of Buddhists who do believe in God ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness.
Indian adults who say religion is very important in their lives are more likely than others to ask God for good health (93% vs. 85%), with similar patterns in asking for prosperity or forgiveness. However, among Christians, those who say religion is very important are slightly less likely than other Christians to ask God for good health (92% vs. 96%).
The vast majority of Indians who have faced financial difficulties in the past year say they ask God for prosperity (94%) as well as good health (93%) and forgiveness (92%). But Indians who recently faced financial hardship are only slightly more likely than other Indians to ask God for each of these things, including prosperity (94% and 92%, respectively).
While Indians with different levels of education also are about equally likely to ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness, college-educated Christians are somewhat more inclined than other Christians to ever ask God for forgiveness (98% vs. 90%), a pattern also seen among Sikhs (95% vs. 86%).

 

[Total Power]

Good points, nothing you said there is incorrect, apart from polytheism, afaik. I get that Hindus believe in a single God with many manifestations...

While belief in God is nearly universal in India, the kind of God(s) that Indians believe in varies. Majorities or pluralities of Muslims (66%), Christians (68%), Sikhs (57%) and Buddhists (39%) say “there is only one God.” By contrast, most Hindus (61%) and Jains (54%) say that there is “only one God with many manifestations.”
In all of India’s major religious communities, much smaller shares believe that “there are many gods,” including just 7% of Hindus who choose this option from the three possible responses provided.
In most regions, at least half of Hindus believe in one God with many manifestations, but in the Northeast, most Hindus believe in one God alone (56%). And Hindus in the South are somewhat more likely than those in other regions to say there are many gods (18% vs. 7% nationally).
Similarly, Southern Muslims (10%) and Christians (8%) are more likely than Muslims and Christians elsewhere in India to say there are many gods.

Many Hindus feel close to Shiva​

The survey asked Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains who say they believe in God which god they feel closest to, seeking to measure the concept of ishta devata (“personal god”). Respondents were shown 15 images of gods on a card as possible options (though they could also name other deities), and they could select up to three gods.23
Hindus most commonly feel close to Shiva (44%). In Hindu temples, Shiva is represented both through his male form as well as a symbol, known as a lingam. In Hindu philosophy, Shiva’s role in destruction does not necessarily have a negative connotation. In fact, destruction is considered central to creation as it may pave the way for beneficial change.
In addition, roughly one-third of Hindus feel close to Hanuman (35%), the god who symbolizes strength and loyalty, or Ganesha (32%), the remover of obstacles who is especially revered before starting new projects. Among Jains, the most popular responses are Lakshmi (20%) and Ganesha (17%), although six-in-ten Jains (59%) say there is “another god” not named by the survey to whom they feel closest.
Among Sikhs and Buddhists, no single god is chosen by more than one-in-ten respondents (although about three-in-ten in each group choose the “another god” option). An additional 29% of Sikhs decline to answer the question, and one-third of Buddhists do not believe in God and thus did not receive this question.

While Shiva is the most common deity Hindus feel close to nationally, a significantly smaller share of Hindus in India’s West feel this connection (30%). In the West, instead, the most common deity Hindus feel close to is Ganesha (46%).
In the Northeast, fully 46% of Hindus say they feel closest to Krishna, often depicted as a lover and prankster, whose dialogue with a prince during battle is the basis for the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna is more popular in the Northeast than in any other region. And Hanuman and Lord Ram, the god of chivalry and virtue and hero of the epic Ramayana, find far less affinity among Hindus in the Northeast than they do elsewhere.
Noticeable shares of Hindus in the South feel close to several deities who have hardly any Hindu followers elsewhere in the country: Murugan (14% of South Hindus), Ayyappa (13%) and Meenakshi (7%).

Hindu men are far more likely than Hindu women to feel close to Hanuman (41% vs. 29%). Meanwhile, Hindu women are more likely than men to say they are closest to the goddess Lakshmi (33% vs. 22%).

Many Indians believe God can be manifested in other people​

Most Indians say that God can be manifested in nature, such as mountains, rivers and trees (69%). Additionally, a majority say God can be manifested in animals (62%) and the same share say God can appear in people. Hindus are much more likely than those in other religious communities to believe that each of these manifestations is possible.
About three-quarters of Hindus say that God can be manifested in nature (76%) – the most common manifestation Hindus say is possible. By contrast, Muslims and Christians are more likely to believe that God can be manifested in people (44% and 46%, respectively) than in nature or animals.
Indians who have a favorable view of the BJP are significantly more likely than Indians who disapprove of the ruling party to think God can manifest in any of these ways. For instance, while two-thirds of BJP supporters say God can be manifested in animals, roughly half of BJP detractors (52%) share this belief.
Indians’ beliefs on how God can be manifested tie into where they live. Urban Indians are less likely than rural Indians to say God can be manifested in nature, animals and people. And Southern Indians are the least likely to say that God can be manifested in people.
Half of Indians believe God can be manifested in lower-caste people

Survey respondents who said God can be manifested in people were then asked if God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste or, separately, who have done bad things in their life. Just over half of Indians say God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste (53%). Fewer people say God can be manifested in people who have done bad things in their life (30%).
People who belong to Scheduled Castes and Tribes and other lower castes are more likely than those in General Category castes to say God can be manifested in a person who is of a lower caste (56% vs. 48%). But there are no significant differences in responses by caste on whether God can be manifested in people who have done bad deeds.
Hindus are more likely than members of other religious groups to say that God can manifest in lower-caste people and in people who have done bad things, in part because Hindus are more inclined than people from other religious communities to say God can be manifested in people at all.

Indians almost universally ask God for good health, prosperity, forgiveness​

Indians who expressed a belief in God were also asked if they ever ask God to give them or their families several things: good health, prosperity and forgiveness. At least nine-in-ten Indians ask God for each. Buddhists are the least likely to ever ask God for these things, but much of this is because one-third of Buddhists say they do not believe in God; the vast majority of Buddhists who do believe in God ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness.
Indian adults who say religion is very important in their lives are more likely than others to ask God for good health (93% vs. 85%), with similar patterns in asking for prosperity or forgiveness. However, among Christians, those who say religion is very important are slightly less likely than other Christians to ask God for good health (92% vs. 96%).
The vast majority of Indians who have faced financial difficulties in the past year say they ask God for prosperity (94%) as well as good health (93%) and forgiveness (92%). But Indians who recently faced financial hardship are only slightly more likely than other Indians to ask God for each of these things, including prosperity (94% and 92%, respectively).
While Indians with different levels of education also are about equally likely to ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness, college-educated Christians are somewhat more inclined than other Christians to ever ask God for forgiveness (98% vs. 90%), a pattern also seen among Sikhs (95% vs. 86%).

That's commercial Hinduism or present day Hinduism, a gift left by Abrahamic religions. Still there are multiple God's listed in your own stats. Like i mentioned Allah is not Jesus, no matter how hard you try you won't be able to prove it. The Quran mentions directly, Trinity is for the foolish. Isn't trinity the central concept in your religion?

Original Hindu texts, are purely agnostic. Ask any Indian, very few will be aware of it. It's blind faith.

Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.

Whence this creation has arisen,
perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not.
The one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven,
only he knows, or perhaps he does not know.

— Rig Veda, chapter 10, hymn 129, verses 6 (partial) and 7


This is why i asked you to read more into theologies than just googling stuff. It doesn't do justice to the subject in hand.

Original Hindu texts (the vedas) mention no gods. No creation. Those are smritis, which came during the time of OT. Vedas came a lot earlier than that.

 

[Total Power]

Good points, nothing you said there is incorrect, apart from polytheism, afaik. I get that Hindus believe in a single God with many manifestations...

While belief in God is nearly universal in India, the kind of God(s) that Indians believe in varies. Majorities or pluralities of Muslims (66%), Christians (68%), Sikhs (57%) and Buddhists (39%) say “there is only one God.” By contrast, most Hindus (61%) and Jains (54%) say that there is “only one God with many manifestations.”
In all of India’s major religious communities, much smaller shares believe that “there are many gods,” including just 7% of Hindus who choose this option from the three possible responses provided.
In most regions, at least half of Hindus believe in one God with many manifestations, but in the Northeast, most Hindus believe in one God alone (56%). And Hindus in the South are somewhat more likely than those in other regions to say there are many gods (18% vs. 7% nationally).
Similarly, Southern Muslims (10%) and Christians (8%) are more likely than Muslims and Christians elsewhere in India to say there are many gods.

Many Hindus feel close to Shiva​

The survey asked Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains who say they believe in God which god they feel closest to, seeking to measure the concept of ishta devata (“personal god”). Respondents were shown 15 images of gods on a card as possible options (though they could also name other deities), and they could select up to three gods.23
Hindus most commonly feel close to Shiva (44%). In Hindu temples, Shiva is represented both through his male form as well as a symbol, known as a lingam. In Hindu philosophy, Shiva’s role in destruction does not necessarily have a negative connotation. In fact, destruction is considered central to creation as it may pave the way for beneficial change.
In addition, roughly one-third of Hindus feel close to Hanuman (35%), the god who symbolizes strength and loyalty, or Ganesha (32%), the remover of obstacles who is especially revered before starting new projects. Among Jains, the most popular responses are Lakshmi (20%) and Ganesha (17%), although six-in-ten Jains (59%) say there is “another god” not named by the survey to whom they feel closest.
Among Sikhs and Buddhists, no single god is chosen by more than one-in-ten respondents (although about three-in-ten in each group choose the “another god” option). An additional 29% of Sikhs decline to answer the question, and one-third of Buddhists do not believe in God and thus did not receive this question.

While Shiva is the most common deity Hindus feel close to nationally, a significantly smaller share of Hindus in India’s West feel this connection (30%). In the West, instead, the most common deity Hindus feel close to is Ganesha (46%).
In the Northeast, fully 46% of Hindus say they feel closest to Krishna, often depicted as a lover and prankster, whose dialogue with a prince during battle is the basis for the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna is more popular in the Northeast than in any other region. And Hanuman and Lord Ram, the god of chivalry and virtue and hero of the epic Ramayana, find far less affinity among Hindus in the Northeast than they do elsewhere.
Noticeable shares of Hindus in the South feel close to several deities who have hardly any Hindu followers elsewhere in the country: Murugan (14% of South Hindus), Ayyappa (13%) and Meenakshi (7%).

Hindu men are far more likely than Hindu women to feel close to Hanuman (41% vs. 29%). Meanwhile, Hindu women are more likely than men to say they are closest to the goddess Lakshmi (33% vs. 22%).

Many Indians believe God can be manifested in other people​

Most Indians say that God can be manifested in nature, such as mountains, rivers and trees (69%). Additionally, a majority say God can be manifested in animals (62%) and the same share say God can appear in people. Hindus are much more likely than those in other religious communities to believe that each of these manifestations is possible.
About three-quarters of Hindus say that God can be manifested in nature (76%) – the most common manifestation Hindus say is possible. By contrast, Muslims and Christians are more likely to believe that God can be manifested in people (44% and 46%, respectively) than in nature or animals.
Indians who have a favorable view of the BJP are significantly more likely than Indians who disapprove of the ruling party to think God can manifest in any of these ways. For instance, while two-thirds of BJP supporters say God can be manifested in animals, roughly half of BJP detractors (52%) share this belief.
Indians’ beliefs on how God can be manifested tie into where they live. Urban Indians are less likely than rural Indians to say God can be manifested in nature, animals and people. And Southern Indians are the least likely to say that God can be manifested in people.
Half of Indians believe God can be manifested in lower-caste people

Survey respondents who said God can be manifested in people were then asked if God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste or, separately, who have done bad things in their life. Just over half of Indians say God can be manifested in people who belong to a lower caste (53%). Fewer people say God can be manifested in people who have done bad things in their life (30%).
People who belong to Scheduled Castes and Tribes and other lower castes are more likely than those in General Category castes to say God can be manifested in a person who is of a lower caste (56% vs. 48%). But there are no significant differences in responses by caste on whether God can be manifested in people who have done bad deeds.
Hindus are more likely than members of other religious groups to say that God can manifest in lower-caste people and in people who have done bad things, in part because Hindus are more inclined than people from other religious communities to say God can be manifested in people at all.

Indians almost universally ask God for good health, prosperity, forgiveness​

Indians who expressed a belief in God were also asked if they ever ask God to give them or their families several things: good health, prosperity and forgiveness. At least nine-in-ten Indians ask God for each. Buddhists are the least likely to ever ask God for these things, but much of this is because one-third of Buddhists say they do not believe in God; the vast majority of Buddhists who do believe in God ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness.
Indian adults who say religion is very important in their lives are more likely than others to ask God for good health (93% vs. 85%), with similar patterns in asking for prosperity or forgiveness. However, among Christians, those who say religion is very important are slightly less likely than other Christians to ask God for good health (92% vs. 96%).
The vast majority of Indians who have faced financial difficulties in the past year say they ask God for prosperity (94%) as well as good health (93%) and forgiveness (92%). But Indians who recently faced financial hardship are only slightly more likely than other Indians to ask God for each of these things, including prosperity (94% and 92%, respectively).
While Indians with different levels of education also are about equally likely to ask God for good health, prosperity and forgiveness, college-educated Christians are somewhat more inclined than other Christians to ever ask God for forgiveness (98% vs. 90%), a pattern also seen among Sikhs (95% vs. 86%).

Interesting bits here too
While belief in God is nearly universal in India, the kind of God(s) that Indians believe in varies. Majorities or pluralities of Muslims (66%), Christians (68%), Sikhs (57%) and Buddhists (39%) say “there is only one God.” By contrast, most Hindus (61%) and Jains (54%) say that there is “only one God with many manifestations.”


So it looks like a pretty large portion of Bible believers (about 1/3rd) believe in multiple Gods.

 

[Vdubs]

That's commercial Hinduism or present day Hinduism, a gift left by Abrahamic religions. Still there are multiple God's listed in your own stats. Like i mentioned Allah is not Jesus, no matter how hard you try you won't be able to prove it. The Quran mentions directly, Trinity is for the foolish. Isn't trinity the central concept in your religion?

Original Hindu texts, are purely agnostic. Ask any Indian, very few will be aware of it. It's blind faith.

Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.

Whence this creation has arisen,
perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not.
The one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven,
only he knows, or perhaps he does not know.

— Rig Veda, chapter 10, hymn 129, verses 6 (partial) and 7


This is why i asked you to read more into theologies than just googling stuff. It doesn't do justice to the subject in hand.

Original Hindu texts (the vedas) mention no gods. No creation. Those are smritis, which came during the time of OT. Vedas came a lot earlier than that.

Fair enough. I thought it was a good read.
If I was retired and motivated, I would. I barely have time or make time to read my own book.

 

[Vdubs]

Interesting bits here too
While belief in God is nearly universal in India, the kind of God(s) that Indians believe in varies. Majorities or pluralities of Muslims (66%), Christians (68%), Sikhs (57%) and Buddhists (39%) say “there is only one God.” By contrast, most Hindus (61%) and Jains (54%) say that there is “only one God with many manifestations.”


So it looks like a pretty large portion of Bible believers (about 1/3rd) believe in multiple Gods.

Not quite thye conclusion I formed from those figures, but it matters not.
God knows. That's all that counts.
I always maintain that if God is real, true, He judges each individual on the basis of the sincerity of his faith and the fruits of that belief.

 

[Total Power]

Not quite thye conclusion I formed from those figures, but it matters not.
God knows. That's all that counts.
I always maintain that if God is real, true, He judges each individual on the basis of the sincerity of his faith and the fruits of that belief.

However this proves belief in any god is good then, not just Jesus.

Which was my point to begin with anyway.

If Jesus is not the ONLY way, he shouldn't claim it in the Bible. (Its from John anyway which is little historical significance, but still)

 

[Vdubs]

However this proves belief in any god is good then, not just Jesus.

Which was my point to begin with anyway.

If Jesus is not the ONLY way, he shouldn't claim it in the Bible. (Its from John anyway which is little historical significance, but still)

When you study ALL the religions, faith systems etc. you conclude that Christianity is flawed and your Bible "evidence" reinforces that or causes that belief.
My interpretation differs, and not because I don't want to consider that Christianity could be wrong- I've had as many doubts as anyone- being human after all- and my upbringing was by a very skeptical post WW2 immigrant from Europe.
So I am naturally cynical, questioning, and it has taken me ages to increase my commitment.
But the point being, from my reading, podcasts, and life experience, Christianity makes the most sense. Truly does for me. Aspects of other faith systems , as above, leave me thinking, that just can not be right (for me).
So if each us lives according to the faith we have, with clear conscience, and with motivation to serve our fellow humans, as you have said, there should be agreement. Harmony. And there is in m y workplace and world. I can explain that in a PM one day.
For those who genuinely seek meaning, purpose, love, direction, I am happy to discuss what my faith does for me on a daily basis.
For those who do not want or need this, I am not at all here to argue, persuade, or proselytise.

 

[Total Power]

So if each us lives according to the faith we have, with clear conscience, and with motivation to serve our fellow humans, as you have said, there should be agreement. Harmony. And there is in m y workplace and world.

Why this? why is faith so important in your statement?

According to what you wrote, righteousness matters most, not faith. Which is initially my point too.

Faithless people like me are worse off? according to your book we are actually. According to Islam we're worse off.

Any religion that requires that you need to be a member of the fan club orelse you are damned (or evil) by default, is not much of a belief system though. It's oppression.

This is why i dislike the Abrahamic religions (one of the thousands of reasons) and i like Buddhism for this very same reason.

 

[Vdubs]

Why this? why is faith so important in your statement?

Faithless people like me are worse off? according to your book we are actually. According to Islam we're worse off.

You believe in God, you are not faithless. Your attitude and benevolence and impact on people in the world probably comes from God.

You asked before, why CS Lewis? He has had a profound impact on my faith journey, as he has for millions.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else.”

This famous quote by C.S. Lewis comes from a paper given to The Oxford Socratic Club entitled, Is Theology Poetry? Lewis sets out to answer the question, Is the imagination of followers of Jesus so aroused and satisfied by the poetry of the Gospel message that they have mistaken intellectual assent for mere aesthetic enjoyment? In other words, has the romantic attraction of the story of Jesus trumped the place of reason in coming to faith? Lewis writes,



I was taught at school, when I had done a sum, to “prove my answer”. The proof or verification of my Christian answer to the cosmic sum is this. When I accept Theology I may find difficulties, at this point or that, in harmonizing it with some particular truths which are imbedded in the mythical cosmology derived from science. But I can get in, or allow for, science as a whole. Granted that Reason is prior to matter and that the light of the primal Reason illuminates finite minds, I can understand how men should come by observation and inference, to know a lot about the universe they live in. If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not onlycan I not fit in Christianity, but I cannot even fit in science. If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on bio-chemistry, and bio-chemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees. And this is to me the final test. This is how I distinguish dreaming and waking.

When I am awake I can, in some degree, account for and study my dream. The dragon that pursued me last night can be fitted into my waking world. I know that there are such things as dreams: I know that I had eaten an indigestible dinner: I know that a man of my reading might be expected to dream of dragons. But while in the night mare I could not have fitted in my waking experience. The waking world is judged more real because it can thus contain the dreaming world: the dreaming world is judged less real because it cannot contain the waking one. For the same reason I am certain that in passing from the scientific point of view to the theological, I have passed from dream to waking. Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub-Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of these things, not even science itself. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else.



“Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
JOHN 6:28-29 (NIV)

---

 

[Roylion]

Your attitude and benevolence and impact on people in the world probably comes from God.

---

There is absolutely no evidence that this comes from 'god'.

 

[liz]

, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees. And this is to me the final test.

The answer, for me, is that it doesn’t (have any more significance).

The key difference between believers and non-believers is, I suspect a determination that there has to be some meaning to everything.

Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub-Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of these things, not even science itself.

---

I don’t have a clue what Lewis thinks he means by that.

 

[Total Power]

You believe in God, you are not faithless. Your attitude and benevolence and impact on people in the world probably comes from God.

Ugh no mate, we have gone through this before. You ignore the bad parts of Bible cause you're a good person. Not the other way around. People are good in general, some are evil but i happen to know so many great people and most of them aren't even religious.

I am faithless cause Gnosticism is not defined as belief through faith. Read about it please.

So come people are good without religion?

Someone must have figured it out by themselves.

On the hand there's plenty your god did that is utterly disgusting by todays standards.

You're a good person and you consider me to be a good person cause you're a good bloke. What does your god say about my lack of faith?

Islam even goes a step further saying that i must be killed for my lack of faith.

You say goodness comes from god? define goodness first based on my examples above?

You asked before, why CS Lewis? He has had a profound impact on my faith journey, as he has for millions.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else.”

This famous quote by C.S. Lewis comes from a paper given to The Oxford Socratic Club entitled, Is Theology Poetry? Lewis sets out to answer the question, Is the imagination of followers of Jesus so aroused and satisfied by the poetry of the Gospel message that they have mistaken intellectual assent for mere aesthetic enjoyment? In other words, has the romantic attraction of the story of Jesus trumped the place of reason in coming to faith? Lewis writes,



I was taught at school, when I had done a sum, to “prove my answer”. The proof or verification of my Christian answer to the cosmic sum is this. When I accept Theology I may find difficulties, at this point or that, in harmonizing it with some particular truths which are imbedded in the mythical cosmology derived from science. But I can get in, or allow for, science as a whole. Granted that Reason is prior to matter and that the light of the primal Reason illuminates finite minds, I can understand how men should come by observation and inference, to know a lot about the universe they live in. If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not onlycan I not fit in Christianity, but I cannot even fit in science. If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on bio-chemistry, and bio-chemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees. And this is to me the final test. This is how I distinguish dreaming and waking.

When I am awake I can, in some degree, account for and study my dream. The dragon that pursued me last night can be fitted into my waking world. I know that there are such things as dreams: I know that I had eaten an indigestible dinner: I know that a man of my reading might be expected to dream of dragons. But while in the night mare I could not have fitted in my waking experience. The waking world is judged more real because it can thus contain the dreaming world: the dreaming world is judged less real because it cannot contain the waking one. For the same reason I am certain that in passing from the scientific point of view to the theological, I have passed from dream to waking. Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub-Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of these things, not even science itself. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else.



“Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
JOHN 6:28-29 (NIV)

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Slightly less cynically, the aim of apologetics is not to convert non-believers, but to reassure doubting believers that it's okay to believe, that there are good reasons for believing in God, even if you personally don't know what they are.

Lewis ADMITTED this himself:

"I am not writing for the "heathen," but for the 'already half-convinced' Christians, who are in some danger of being 'completely and permanently disillusioned."

And boy does it show; especially "Mere Christianity" which was given to me by a Christian to read cause he thought it will make me revert (LOL). It's chock full of logical fallacies. It just made walk away from this religion completely.

Some Philosophers of Religion and Theologians call this form of bullshit: "Faith seeking understanding." But it's still bullshit.

The first time i found out his bullshit is his famous argument that you have to accept Jesus as liar, lunatic, or LORD, you have NO OTHER choice

he problems with that argument are covered very thoroughly here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lewis_Trilemma#Problems_with_the_argument

Mainly, the argument relies on a lot of assumptions, starting with the assumptions that Jesus actually existed, and that the New Testament is an accurate account of him (it's not, it contradicts itself).

Please do not quote C.S Lewis. You are doing yourself no favour.

“Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
JOHN 6:28-29 (NIV)

Excellent so believe all of it. Don't pick and choose, believe ALL of it.

You can't and you won't. You know this.

C.S Lewis is a hopeless apologetic, not the brightest either.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I don’t have a clue what Lewis thinks he means by that.

Agreed. It’s nothing but a supremacist argument. Basically saying “The proof that Christianity is a superior worldview to science is the self-evident fact that, as I just stated, Christianity is a superior worldview to science.”