Lawnchair Larry
Cancelled
- Apr 1, 2015
- 2,627
- 3,099
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
Wave goodbye to 400ppm CO2.
Opinion Climate change
- Thread starter El_Scorcho
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Lawnchair Larry
Cancelled
- Apr 1, 2015
- 2,627
- 3,099
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
Sth Aust green hydrogen?
Somewhat pessimistic report:
reneweconomy.com.au
Green hydrogen is a much hyped commodity. And the world is full of opinions and lists of what it will, and what it won’t do. And at the very bottom of one well-respected ladder of opportunities is using green hydrogen as a balancing power plant for a renewables grid.
Yet that is exactly what the South Australian government has promised to do. It intends to build a 250MW hydrogen electrolyser – 10 times bigger than any other operating plant in the world – to feed into a 200MW hydrogen power plant, which would also be the biggest in the world.
Somewhat pessimistic report:
The radical plan to build world’s biggest green electrolyser and hydrogen power plant
South Australia defied the critics with the first Tesla big battery, now it plans to do the same with the world’s biggest green hydrogen power plant.
reneweconomy.com.au
Green hydrogen is a much hyped commodity. And the world is full of opinions and lists of what it will, and what it won’t do. And at the very bottom of one well-respected ladder of opportunities is using green hydrogen as a balancing power plant for a renewables grid.
Yet that is exactly what the South Australian government has promised to do. It intends to build a 250MW hydrogen electrolyser – 10 times bigger than any other operating plant in the world – to feed into a 200MW hydrogen power plant, which would also be the biggest in the world.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
"green" hydrogen is a bit of a misnomer.
"Green" anything is a misnomer. Even plants aren't always green.
If you use surplus solar power to produce Hydrogen ( for example by electrolysis of water ), you produce a means of storing the energy.
If you then burn it in a power station, truck engine, or aeroplane, it exhausts water vapour and warm air.
So far its the only carbon free solution for such things, unless you want to go nuclear.
What's your issue with it?
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
Expansive, volatile, and as far as I'm aware these figures haven't changed a great deal:
As at the end of 2021, almost 47% of the global hydrogen production is from natural gas, 27% from coal, 22% from oil (as a by-product) and only around 4% comes from electrolysis. Electricity had a global average renewable share of about 33% in 2021, which means that only about 1% of global hydrogen output is produced with renewable energy.
Yes , which is why they referred to it as a "Green" Hydrogen, and even mentioned an electrolysis plant.
They are talking about the future, you are talking about the now/past.
Looking forward renewable's can't work unless we have a massive oversupply.
A wind generator that produces 4Mw in a 10km/h wind , is probably producing about 16Mw in a 20Km/h wind.
A solar array that gives enough power on an average day, is probably producing double what you need on a high solar day.
Here is S.A.
Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption
Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.
app.electricitymaps.com
Scroll down the panel on the left, and you can see the electricity prices. They actually go negative when there is plenty of power, but when the sun goes down a few hours later, its up at $149/Mw hour, nearly twice the average.
So the plan would be to take that surplus solar electricity, when you can't give it away, and turn it into Hydrogen. The price of generating Hydrogen is linked to the price of electricity, which is why you do it when there is surplus.
When the sun goes down you arc up the gas turbines.
Volatile , means that it evaporates easily at normal temperatures. Doesn't really make sense to use it to describe Hydrogen. Its like saying Air is volatile.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
Yes , which is why they referred to it as a "Green" Hydrogen, and even mentioned an electrolysis plant.
They are talking about the future, you are talking about the now/past.
Looking forward renewable's can't work unless we have a massive oversupply.
A wind generator that produces 4Mw in a 10km/h wind , is probably producing about 16Mw in a 20Km/h wind.
A solar array that gives enough power on an average day, is probably producing double what you need on a high solar day.
Here is S.A.
Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption
Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.
Scroll down the panel on the left, and you can see the electricity prices. They actually go negative when there is plenty of power, but when the sun goes down a few hours later, its up at $149/Mw hour, nearly twice the average.
So the plan would be to take that surplus solar electricity, when you can't give it away, and turn it into Hydrogen. The price of generating Hydrogen is linked to the price of electricity, which is why you do it when there is surplus.
When the sun goes down you arc up the gas turbines.
Volatile , means that it evaporates easily at normal temperatures. Doesn't really make sense to use it to describe Hydrogen. Its like saying Air is volatile.
We still have to be able to transport the stuff around. Are you saying a truck full of hydrogen isn't volatile?
I'm not completely against hydrogen, I'm against the fact that the greenwashing has already begun about how great it is currently, when the production of it is mostly involving fossil fuels. That's what I was referring to.
If you were building a plant to generate hydrogen for generating electricity, your gas turbines would be close by, if not on site.
You would store it and transport it with tanks and pipes, similar to Natural gas.
There isn't much difference between a natural gas power station and a Hydrogen power station.
The power station discussed is not as big as the Laverton power station.
No a truck is not volatile. Volatile means that it evaporates easily.
Hydrogen is more flammable than natural gas, and the flame moves faster. Because its a small molecule it leaks more readily.
In most places a "surplus" of electricity is a pipe dream. If they have more than they need they turn the wick down on their coal , gas , or nuclear stations.
You can't really turn down the solar and wind, and S.A. have built so much that they often produce more than they need, during the day.
I don't know what the efficiencies would be, I'd guess that 2 MW of wind/solar electricity could end up producing 1 MW of Hydrogen electricity.
Lawnchair Larry
Cancelled
- Apr 1, 2015
- 2,627
- 3,099
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
If this H2 plant goes ahead, it is:
1. real important where it is built. If built next to a steel works with an eye to the future then it may have multiple purposes.
2. real important that the water generated is captured as it is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Actually it will be a source of potable water, which may be a useful addition to capability in arid zones or countries with quality of drinking water issues - 2 gram of H2 will give 18 gram of water at 100% efficiency.
Being a novice in EV stuff I actually did not realise till recently that H2 powered vehicles are actually electric vehicles - the hydrogen is actually fed into an electrohemical fuel cell to generate current
1. real important where it is built. If built next to a steel works with an eye to the future then it may have multiple purposes.
2. real important that the water generated is captured as it is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Actually it will be a source of potable water, which may be a useful addition to capability in arid zones or countries with quality of drinking water issues - 2 gram of H2 will give 18 gram of water at 100% efficiency.
Being a novice in EV stuff I actually did not realise till recently that H2 powered vehicles are actually electric vehicles - the hydrogen is actually fed into an electrohemical fuel cell to generate current
Some are electric , some are internal combustion.
Hydrogen internal combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells | Cummins Inc.
Regulations limiting greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs) from motor vehicles are tightening around the world. With this, both hydrogen engines and hydrogen fuel cells are receiving an increasing interest.
Then there's this. I don't think using batteries/electric motors is an option for aircraft.
Technology like this will be essential if Australia want to have carbon free transport.
thedriven.io
Still well short of what is needed for road trains, but then road trains are just a means of employing less truck drivers.
Volvo unveils hydrogen-powered truck with 1,000km range
Volvo Trucks unveils hydrogen fuel cell truck which it says will have a range of up to 1,000 kilometres.
thedriven.io
Still well short of what is needed for road trains, but then road trains are just a means of employing less truck drivers.
- Nov 6, 2014
- 65,439
- 83,412
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
London: Former Australian prime minister Tony Abbott has joined the board of trustees of the leading climate sceptic think tank, the Global Warming Policy Foundation, vowing to inject more “genuine science” and less “groupthink” into the debate.
Hard to believe he and this organisation are really concerned about the ‘poor’
“The London-based think tank was founded in 2009 by Nigel Lawson, who once served as treasurer to former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher. It exists as an educational charity that aims to combat what it calls damaging and harmful climate-change policies.”
Hard to believe he and this organisation are really concerned about the ‘poor’
“The London-based think tank was founded in 2009 by Nigel Lawson, who once served as treasurer to former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher. It exists as an educational charity that aims to combat what it calls damaging and harmful climate-change policies.”
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
Hmm just got done at this pedo's funeral, what to do next? Hmm maybe I can work on overheating the planet a bit more.
- former Australian PM Tony Abbott
Still can't believe this man was democratically elected lol
To be fair the alternative was an absolute shambles at that point with labour just knifing each other in the backs every few months.
Not a fan of Abbott or his government at all, but I don't blame Australians for wanting to end the Rudd/Gillard circus at any cost.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
Instead we get the Abbott/Turnbull/scummo/sex pest Joyce circus, which was soooo much better with the added bullshit of the LNPs RWNJ crap.
Gillard was objectively not a bad PM compared to the recent loonies, but she was slaughtered by Murdoch for being a woman. Krudd just took advantage
The carbon price was actually working in reducing our emissions, before dickhead got in and set us back ten years. Now we're miles behind the 8 ball internationally on things like take up of EVs.
Last edited:
Like I said, I'm not gonna defend Abbott and the shitshow that followed, but what I am saying is that a lot of Australians needed to hold the muppets that were actually in power accountable which is why I'm not surprised Abbott won. I don't think many people wanted him, they just wanted anybody but the ALP.
Rudd, Shorten and Gillard chose to use the government as their own games room and were turfed out for it. They only have themselves to blame for that.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
It's a bit like voting for Trump to own the libs though isnt it?
We voted for the mad monk to own the labs. Everyone bar the most ardent bible basher could see he was a loon.
Schulzenfest
TheBrownDog
Yes thankfully the LNP took over and ushered in a government of stunning stability, congrats to Tony on his 9 successful years as PM.
That's exactly what its like.
Have addressed this already. Whether right or wrong, democracies always have a greater emphasis on judging the incumbent than they do on evaluating the alternative. If you do a terrible job, you're gonna be ousted, even if its at at the expense of the electorate.
Do I think it was the right decision to vote in Tones? Probably not, honestly - ALP were still probably the lesser evil at that point. Was I surprised Australia did it? Absolutely not.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
Long-winded way of getting to agree with me that voting for uncle Tone was a bad idea.
True but that's not how the discussion started - I was replying to when you said you "couldn't believe" that he was democratically elected.
EV's aren't going to help much while you're charging them off our Carbon Intensive grid. S.A. they make sense. Get the grid sorted first.
We aren't "behind" on EV's unless you want to force them on people, which raises affordability issues.
Like all cars they are designed overseas , and you can buy one for a price relative to their cost.
As there are more , you will find that there will be more infrastructure forthcoming.
International Shipping puts out more emissions than Australia.
- Aug 15, 2015
- 38,675
- 92,404
why you wanna argue about everything, my dude? the LNP pretended climate change wasn't a real thing for years and so their party position was not to encourage anything climate related, including EVs.
Electric car use by country - Wikipedia
Electric vehicles
Electric vehicles are cars or other vehicles that are propelled by electric motors. Unlike traditional internal combustion engine vehicles that use liquid fuels, electric vehicle motors are powered by electricity.
arena.gov.au
Electric vehicles in Australia
Electric vehicle uptake in Australia is currently lower than other developed countries but the number of EVs is expected to grow as cheaper models arrive and more charging infrastructure is rolled out.it's objectively true that we're behind other developed countries. with the climate denying libs out of canberra and most states, things will start to change.
why you wanna argue about everything, my dude? the LNP pretended climate change wasn't a real thing for years and so their party position was not to encourage anything climate related, including EVs.
Electric car use by country - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Electric vehicles
Electric vehicles are cars or other vehicles that are propelled by electric motors. Unlike traditional internal combustion engine vehicles that use liquid fuels, electric vehicle motors are powered by electricity.Electric vehicles in Australia
Electric vehicle uptake in Australia is currently lower than other developed countries but the number of EVs is expected to grow as cheaper models arrive and more charging infrastructure is rolled out.
it's objectively true that we're behind other developed countries. with the climate denying libs out of canberra and most states, things will start to change.
Not disputing the politics , but that didn't really affect the cars.
Australia currently has 3.3% market share.
That's similar to Europe 2019 or USA 2021/
Its the car makers that decide when to release a vehicle where and how much to charge.
Tesla 3 Production - Mid 2017.
Tesla 3 available for online purchase in Australia - 2019.
Right Hand Drive Tesla 3 Deliveries UK - June 2019.
Deliveries of previously ordered Tesla 3 - August/September 2019.
They still aren't easy to get.
Tesla restarts Model 3 production for one Australian state
A handful of Tesla Model 3 order holders receive confirmation their EV has been built.
thedriven.io
New Zealand has exempted electric vehicle owners from paying rego, which seems to have worked, but i think they will still run into an affordability problem.
A lot of Australians are driving cars they bought new for less than $20 000. A lot have never bought a new car.
Schulzenfest
TheBrownDog
I could believe that the populace would democratically elect a potato at this point.
