List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[LuckyLee]

Yet in the case of Ginnivan (who played even more games) it happened.

I don’t think it was likely for a player outside our best 22 last season to force his way though after increasing depth especially y all three of McStay, Hill and Mitchell’s spot came at the expense of a forward.

Henry playing 15 games last season were because the alternatives of Krueger and Johnson were injured most of the year and not a true reflection of how he was tracking.


There’s a bit of that with some posters however I was happy for him to leave the whole time he was year.

I was happy for him to go too. Henry is a peacock - thinks he’s pretty and wants everyone to look at him. Undoubtedly talented but not a sacrificial team-first player. Doesn’t fit our culture.


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[Apex36]

I’d be stoked with an off-season of Khamis and Doedee

…why? I get that Khamis looks like he has a high ceiling, but the fact is he still hasn’t cracked the 22 of a middle of the road side 3 years in.
And Doedee… a double knee reco defender. Sounds like Scharenberg mkII.

 

[brysie]

I’d be stoked with an off-season of Khamis and Doedee

I'd prefer that the club focused its attention on Jordon rather than Doedee as he's younger, will add to our midfield (present and emerging) and doesn't have the same injury history as Doedee.

Khamis looks great for what we're likely to have to pay for him.

 

[No SPIN]

It's one game, not a season. We can't sign kids on the premise of one ressie game. He played well as a forward against Richmond, not so much a ruck.

He’s 20 yo and showed abilities that people doubted he had in that match. That’s why the narrative has changed around his retention.
Talls take time - he has aggression, athleticism and mobility, which at 198cm is a huge advantage.

 

[Gone Critical]

Yet in the case of Ginnivan (who played even more games) it happened.

I don’t think it was likely for a player outside our best 22 last season to force his way though after increasing depth especially since all three of McStay, Hill and Mitchell’s spot came at the expense of a forward.

Henry playing 15 games last season were because the alternatives of Krueger and Johnson were injured most of the year and not a true reflection of how he was tracking.


There’s a bit of that with some posters however I was happy for him to leave the whole time he was year.

True but you can find individual exceptions to any rule if you look. Ginny's off season probably had a bit to do with his fall but he and Henry are the real talents from our 2020 haul so I hope and expect he bounces back

Just the same it's better to look at the body of evidence rather than pick cases that suit a narrative. I think people are just being a bit bloody minded when they talk Henry down. He is tracking like a serious talent. Is he certain to be that ? No , but the argument that he would struggle to be in our 23 after the development he has shown doesn't hold water for me. The elite and A grade players are just at the top of the pyramid of talent and so very hard to keep them out of teams. Henry is clearly on that path.

The other thing Henry had were those occasional moment of "wow, thats a bit spec" that for me has always been a really good sign in young forwards in particular

 

[Bianconeri]

True but you can find individual exceptions to any rule if you look. Ginny's off season probably had a bit to do with his fall but he and Henry are the real talents from our 2020 haul so I hope and expect he bounces back

Just the same it's better to look at the body of evidence rather than pick cases that suit a narrative. I think people are just being a bit bloody minded when they talk Henry down. He is tracking like a serious talent. Is he certain to be that ? No , but the argument that he would struggle to be in our 23 after the development he has shown doesn't hold water for me. The elite and A grade players are just at the top of the pyramid of talent and so very hard to keep them out of teams. Henry is clearly on that path.

The other thing Henry had were those occasional moment of "wow, thats a bit spec" that for me has always been a really good sign in young forwards in particular

Your argument that Henry would be best 23 holds even less water. It essentially boils down to “young player played 15 games last season therefore will play more next season” whilst totally ignoring the context of the list, playing style of preferred by the coaches and the increased competition for spots.

There are plenty examples of young players getting games early on then struggling before breaking back in. It’s not always a linear progression so your insistence it would be here despite all the signs pointing the other way is baffling.

 

[sr36]

Your argument that Henry would be best 23 holds even less water. It essentially boils down to “young player played 15 games last season therefore will play more next season” whilst totally ignoring the context of the list, playing style of preferred by the coaches and the increased competition for spots.

There are plenty examples of young players getting games early on then struggling before breaking back in. It’s not always a linear progression so your insistence it would be here despite all the signs pointing the other way is baffling.

He's gone past AJ and AJ played a dozen games this year. Ollie would have gotten games. No one really knows whether he would have held his place, it's a guess. But I think he would have.

 

[Bianconeri]

He's gone past AJ and AJ played a dozen games this year. Ollie would have gotten games. No one really knows whether he would have held his place, it's a guess. But I think he would have.

He’s gone past AJ because he went to Geelong. The story is very different if he stays here. AJ also got a lot of games off the back of playing as a second ruck, something Henry can’t do. I’m sure Henry would sneak in for an appearance.

Unless we moved him to defence he’s have had a big opportunity after our rucks and Howe went down I could easily see
Him hailing a spot there with his intercept game.

 

[sr36]

He’s gone past AJ because he went to Geelong. The story is very different if he stays here. AJ also got a lot of games off the back of playing as a second ruck, something Henry can’t do. I’m sure Henry would sneak in for an appearance.

Unless we moved him to defence he’s have had a big opportunity after our rucks and Howe went down I could easily see
Him hailing a spot there with his intercept game.

AJ was second ruck in about 3 games. Henry would have gotten games in the first half of the year when we were crying out for marking targets due to injuries. Pure speculation on whether he would have done enough to hold his place.

 

[Bianconeri]

AJ was second ruck in about 3 games. Henry would have gotten games in the first half of the year when we were crying out for marking targets due to injuries. Pure speculation on whether he would have done enough to hold his place.

AJ was a second ruck for at least 7 games.

We were crying out for players who can compete in marking contests and bring the ball ground, not one of Henry’s strength. He’d have gotten games not disagreeing with that, and whilst it’s speculation to to say he wouldn’t have held his spot the signs don’t point to him doing so.

 

[sr36]

AJ was a second ruck for at least 7 games.

We were crying out for players who can compete in marking contests and bring the ball ground, not one of Henry’s strength. He’d have gotten games not disagreeing with that, and whilst it’s speculation to to say he wouldn’t have held his spot the signs don’t point to him doing so.

Do "the signs" amount to more than your opinion? Anyway, I think he's tracking really well and am confident that he becomes a very good player with a very well rounded game. He was one that got away, but shit happens.

 

[JuniorB]

There was an article a while back or perhaps I heard it on SEN that they shopped him around last year and are expected to do so again as they view him as a third tall and not a kpd - thus with Sicili there's no place for him.

He's still only 21 - some of these guys take a while to develop.
He's not pushing Sicily out as a back, and he's behind Lewis & Koschitzke as a forward, so he's stifled for opportunities.
That would hinder his development.
If we can pick him up cheaply, he might be worth a look.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

…why? I get that Khamis looks like he has a high ceiling, but the fact is he still hasn’t cracked the 22 of a middle of the road side 3 years in.
And Doedee… a double knee reco defender. Sounds like Scharenberg mkII.

I’m staggered people keep doing this

“He couldn’t get a game at X, why do we want him?”

Markov? Leigh Brown? Jesse Hogan? Like. History is littered with “average” players who couldnt get games at average clubs but find a spot in better ones

Lipinski? Couldn’t get a game at the Dogs either. Yet can’t be removed from our 23.

God I’m glad most of you aren’t list Managers.

There are SO many factors that can go into a specific player struggling at a club. To put ALL of that on the player themselves and their ability is short sighted and narrow minded. At best.

 

[JuniorB]

I'm definitely growing to like the idea of Khamis as a cheapy addition. Think he's significantly better in the swingman role than Wilson, and provides more as a defender than Ruscoe.

I think from the rest of the guys we've been 'linked' to, I'm most interested in is Max Holmes. Only just turned 21, and would provide some great run and skill on the outside as a long-term Sidey replacement.

I like Hollands & Doedee, but admittedly don't know enough about the former and am wary of the latter's injury history.

The irony is that Geelong picked Holmes because they missed out on Henry, then ended up getting the latter anyway.
So we could have drafted Holmes, and he's certainly a type of player we could use.

 

[WakeUpPies]

Did Henry request a trade to Collingwood?

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

The big difference between Henry and a payer like Markov is ones a journey man who has a great story in 2023 and the other is tracking early in his career as an A gade talent

The A grade talent is much more predictable

Any marking forward who plays 10,15 then 22 games in his 1st 3 seasons is tracking wonderfully. To say a 2nd year player wouldnt crack our 23 when he played 15 games the year before is unlikely. He gets talked down on this board because of the way he left. A marking forward who does 10 then 15 in their 1st 2 seasons usually steps up again. Henry did that ++ this year but he was always likely to play a lot

As it stands he has played about 6th number of games in his draft year and cleared out as the player who has kicked most goals from that year. If the draft was redone I think he would go close to top 5.

Goals from 2020 draft

Henry 67
JUH 60 is next best

High end talents are different from run of the mill players. Once you know he can cut it at AFL level he should show marked improvement through those 1st 4 years. He is likely to have another spike in performance in 2024 and over time will become a bigger and bigger loss to us

If he was with us in 23 he would have played lots. The really good kids do, we would have shuffled our team to include him as his improvement continued to rise rapidly

I think you’re assuming I’m suggesting Henry is no good.

Not at all

Feel free to go back through my posts back then, I most certainly didn’t want to lose Henry. Because he was always going to be a great player.

I’m speaking about 23 specifically. I’m just not 100% certain he would have been a regular in the side in 23 specifically post adding McStay and Hill to the team when he struggled to get a game last year before those two were added.

Now, how much of him not getting a game was him telling the club early on he’s leaving? We’ll probably never know but I wouldn’t be surprised if it played a part.

 

[JuniorB]

I’m staggered people keep doing this

“He couldn’t get a game at X, why do we want him?”

Markov? Leigh Brown? Jesse Hogan? Like. History is littered with “average” players who couldnt get games at average clubs but find a spot in better ones

Lipinski? Couldn’t get a game at the Dogs either. Yet can’t be removed from our 23.

God I’m glad most of you aren’t list Managers.

There are SO many factors that can go into a specific player struggling at a club. To put ALL of that on the player themselves and their ability is short sighted and narrow minded. At best.

It gets back to targeting the TYPE of player that would slot in well with our game style - what a player has done previously doesn't really come into it.
Fly's helter skelter game plan has seen players like Hill & Markov thrive.

 

[Bianconeri]

Do "the signs" amount to more than your opinion? Anyway, I think he's tracking really well and am confident that he becomes a very good player with a very well rounded game. He was one that got away, but s**t happens.

The signs are the coaches selection patterns and structure preferences. He’s tracking well, glad he found a club willing to develop him in the seniors. Don’t think we should be too fussed about losing him.

 

[brysie]

He's still only 21 - some of these guys take a while to develop.
He's not pushing Sicily out as a back, and he's behind Lewis & Koschitzke as a forward, so he's stifled for opportunities.
That would hinder his development.
If we can pick him up cheaply, he might be worth a look.

He's only 3 years into the system - there's plenty of time for him to develop.

As a young key position player, I think Hawthorn would be a difficult place to cut your teeth as a key position player, as the ball is likely to be coming in frequently if you're a key back, and if you're a key forward it's unlikely to be coming in as frequently or to your advantage.

There are plenty of players around who have taken time to develop but are now solid contributors (e.g. Liam Jones, Lachie Keeffe, Paddy McCartin)

 

[sr36]

It gets back to targeting the TYPE of player that would slot in well with our game style - what a player has done previously doesn't really come into it.
Fly's helter skelter game plan has seen players like Hill & Markov thrive.

Yep. Basically, everyone is a role player. The stars play their role or a variety of roles to an elite standard. With guys like Hill, McCreery, Ginnivan and Markov they're far from complete players, but they've got serious weapons really suited to their role in the team, which means that they have moments where they're really damaging in their roles. It beats the idea of having the not quite selected for the midfield bloke playing a flankers role and not having the skill set to do much damage in that role. Some teams are sorted for a particular role or dint play a style where that bloke with that skillset is as useful - eg Markov would be far less effective in Brisbane's kicking dissection of a defence than he is in our wave running.

 

[sr36]

The signs are the coaches selection patterns and structure preferences. He’s tracking well, glad he found a club willing to develop him in the seniors. Don’t think we should be too fussed about losing him.

The bolded is limited by the list. Eg. we play 2 rucks with our list. Would we if we had another quality forward? Would we if Cox wasn't more dangerous up forward than the average ruck? It's all a guess.

 

[OniAu]

I was happy for him to go too. Henry is a peacock - thinks he’s pretty and wants everyone to look at him. Undoubtedly talented but not a sacrificial team-first player. Doesn’t fit our culture.


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Lost me complteely when the Roos were getting into Ginni , Henry ran to the goal square with Ginni looking for the cheap easy goal , then once a scuffle starts he walked off.

 

[No SPIN]

I'm definitely growing to like the idea of Khamis as a cheapy addition. Think he's significantly better in the swingman role than Wilson, and provides more as a defender than Ruscoe.

I think from the rest of the guys we've been 'linked' to, I'm most interested in is Max Holmes. Only just turned 21, and would provide some great run and skill on the outside as a long-term Sidey replacement.

I like Hollands & Doedee, but admittedly don't know enough about the former and am wary of the latter's injury history.

How does Khamis provide “more” than Ruscoe as a defender particularly as he’s shorter and 8kg lighter.
Agree on Hollands and Holmes.

 

[Bianconeri]

The bolded is limited by the list. Eg. we play 2 rucks with our list. Would we if we had another quality forward? Would we if Cox wasn't more dangerous up forward than the average ruck? It's all a guess.

The list that limits selection was built to suit the coaches preferences in the first place.

It’s speculation but the signs don’t show a player that doesn’t fit in any of preferred forward roles getting a regular game after severely increased competition.

 

[Bianconeri]

How does Khamis provide “more” than Ruscoe as a defender particularly as he’s shorter and 8kg lighter.
Agree on Hollands and Holmes.

How does Howe provide more than Ruscoe despite being shorter and 9kg lighter?