List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[No SPIN]

I don’t think you’re in any position to determine that GWS are regretting picking up Riccardi, particularly given they happily offered him a contract extension just last year.

No you’ve missed the point. I’m not saying GWS is regretting picking Riccardi, if you go back and read the thread.

 

[loki04]

We lost pick 2 last year also. That's the money spot for key positions.

2x7 for Treloar and change.
2x 2nds for Aish.
2 x firsts for Beams and 41,44.
Pick 7 on Stephenson then he, atu and pick 39 traded for 26, 33 and 70. Basically gave him up for pick 26 which was then given to dogs so we could pay them to take Treloar and upgrade that pick to 14...

Pick 2 for N.Daicos points but barely.

This is why there is a dearth in the 20 to 25 group. Just about the entire lot don't even play at the club now and we got sweet fa to show for it.

 

[sr36]

Freeman Schaz draft would also change.

We'd take Cripps.

Ben Brown, Barrass and to a lesser extent McStay are the relevant talls. Sicily too if you call him a tall. But they all went late and weren't in contention for the early picks we had.

Tom Langdon late was a bloody good pick.

 

[No SPIN]

Yeah I don't agree we haven't missed them. I've given two clear examples of that with Naughton and Cox and haven't actually gone looking. They were obvious ones at the time.

I agree that the player profile we've chased is wrong and that hasn't helped. But there's also been a reluctance to draft them at all and an over reliance on the Category B rookie list to address the list need.

It's almost like we haven't tried at all. I remember raising my concerns about it going back 5+ years and it hasn't improved since.

McClarty was a tall and picked over Cox. So your argument of Hine not picking talls is invalid.
With Naughton - you previously acknowledged that Stevo wasn’t a bad pick. No one was lamenting the Stevo pick at his peak. You also forget that Naughtons kicking was the huge knock on him at draft time. Not repeating the Cloke weakness was obviously top of mind.

So on balance I can’t see the argument against Hine on KPP is very strong.

 

[sr36]

So on balance I can’t see the argument against Hine on KPP is very strong.

The argument is essentially that he didn't draft any talls with runs on the board at any level - just project types. The only tall that he drafted with runs on the board was Mihocek and it's been a success. He only really missed Naughton with an early pick, but only going for projects based solely on athleticism with later picks or cat B, was really flawed.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The trading decisions which he was part of hurt badly too.

2015 draft we had pick 7 treloar

Hopper taken by GwS.
H.mcKay taken pick 10.
Etc

Not convinced Hine can be blamed for targeting/ trading in Treloar, … or that Treloar was even a mistake at all given he was nearly a premiership player. The mistake with Treloar was salary cap mismanagement anD he was the victim/easiest/most expedient source of cap relief.

 

[loki04]

Not convinced Hine can be blamed for targeting/ trading in Treloar, … or that Treloar was even a mistake given he was nearly a premiership player.

He was literally the list manager at the time. The mistake was the cost not Treloar.

 

[stormskye]

Hines been at the club for an eternity. We’ve changed everything else, it’s time for fresh ideas, and a few less flankers and wingers

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

He was literally the list manager at the time. The mistake was the cost not Treloar.

Touché I’d forgotten his role changed along the way.

His expertise is talent identification though and this is why he’s being criticised… for not identifying quality talls at th3 draft. Trades are a different matter ….not sure how decisions were made but he sHoukd not ever have been the sole one doing trade deals.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[adammania9]

If we don’t trade pick 7 for Treloar in 2015, we most likely take Sam Weideman

10

Sam Weideman

Age

27

Ht

197cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.6

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.5

3star

G

1.0

4star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.3

2star

HB

2.8

2star

M

3.8

4star

T

0.5

1star

G

1.8

5star

D

9.2

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.4

3star

G

1.2

4star

who has turned out to be a dud. He was rated higher than McKay by everybody.

If Treloar isn’t on our list in 2016, we likely finish bottom 4 and who do we end up with? Ainsworth? Petrevski-Seton?

I don’t lose any sleep over the Treloar deal. Look to have paid a lot on paper but the end result if we don’t get him at all is probably very grim

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Lol riccardi would be a whipping boy on this board if he were at the club.
We didnt miss out on him because well hes just not any good.

He would almost certainly be playing in defence, which he has shown ability in as an interceptor.

 

[JuniorB]

I'm not saying that we didn't miss them. I'm just suggesting that picking a kpp that didn't make it ahead of Brennan Cox is the sort of thing that all clubs do. The draft order would change enormously if done retrospectively. It's not a howler. It happens to most clubs in every single draft where they could look back and would change their choice.

The two big early calls where we didn't go the kpp were Stephenson over Naughton and JDG over Wright - one all on the retrospective front.

Drafting is always a bit of a crap shoot. Schache & Paddy McCartin, and for us Scharenberg & Freeman are examples of busts. One of our biggest wins was Swannie, but early on, he looked like being a bust too.

 

[Apex36]

No you’ve missed the point. I’m not saying GWS is regretting picking Riccardi, if you go back and read the thread.

You worded your post poorly then because that’s how it read.

 

[Jasper84]

If we don’t trade pick 7 for Treloar in 2015, we most likely take Sam Weideman who has turned out to be a dud. He was rated higher than McKay by everybody.

If Treloar isn’t on our list in 2016, we likely finish bottom 4 and who do we end up with? Ainsworth? Petrevski-Seton?

I don’t lose any sleep over the Treloar deal. Look to have paid a lot on paper but the end result if we don’t get him at all is probably very grim

In hindsight the issue wasn't Treloar the player. It was the club's unrelenting desire to nab a big fish and get a perceived win over Richmond. We didn't just trade two first round picks. We paid over $700k, gambled on the next year's ladder finish, gave a long term contract, wasted a rookie pick on a stable buddy and apparently offered him and his then girlfriend cushy jobs outside the cap. All for a promising kid who didn't have the runs on the board.

It set the precedent that the club was prepared to move heaven and earth to secure and retain certain players for optics alone. The tail wagged the dog and to me it was the start of the chain reaction that led to the 2020 post season debacle which left us in the position we are now. It reeks of the McGuire era where chest beating and a boy's club loyalty reigned supreme over on field performance.

 

[Quicky]

McClarty was a tall and picked over Cox. So your argument of Hine not picking talls is invalid.
With Naughton - you previously acknowledged that Stevo wasn’t a bad pick. No one was lamenting the Stevo pick at his peak. You also forget that Naughtons kicking was the huge knock on him at draft time. Not repeating the Cloke weakness was obviously top of mind.

So on balance I can’t see the argument against Hine on KPP is very strong.

Invalid. Reminds me of Gattaca...

I'm going to go back to the start with my thoughts on this.

I like Hine as a recruiter and I think he's done a lot right. One of the better recruiters in the league.

That said key position is a black mark on his record and remains a weakness of his.

My concerns are two-fold.

First he does not appear to have the right metrics when picking key position players favouring athleticism over other attributes like aggression and smart leading patterns. There's more too this but I'll leave it there.

Second he doesn't invest high enough picks in key forwards to improve our chances of landing good ones which are usually found early in the draft. Off the top of my head and without fact checking we have picked up 2 key forwards (Reid, Moore) in the first round and 2 in the 2nd round (Dawes, McMahon) in the last 17 years. Brown and McLarty were defenders when drafted. While we have used countless rookie picks trying to plug the gap (Reilly, Perham, Richmond, Tohill, Keane, Wilson ...) with the occassional hits in Keeffe, Cox, Mihocek. These aren't bad but were relied on too heavily to structure the team and have left us short.

This isn't new and has been an issue for a long time. It's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. Though I'm encouraged by recent comments by Wright who seems to understand the list issues we have with key position. That said I worry Hine may struggle to pick the right player even if he uses an early pick.

I used a few examples I recall where I felt we should have pulled the trigger understanding key position has been a list weakness for a long time. Some were a reluctance to use an early pick (Stephenson v Naughton - this is pure hindsight from me) while others were poor talent ID which I suspect is because he uses the wrong metrics when picking them (McLarty v Cox).

The proof is in the pudding when it comes to Hine and key positions. We're in really poor shape right now and have been for awhile.

 

[Mollythedolly]

I was so angry that day. I was pumped Riccardi was still available and then gobsmacked we didn't select him. Hine really needs to get over his aversion for key forwards.

What we’re Walsh and Buckley’s instructions to Hine? What type of player was he sent out to recruit?

 

[Mollythedolly]

I think last year's finish was an anomaly. Despite finishing 17th last year, it wasn't an accurate reflection of where the list was at. But I think we're still on a downward trend and could easily get to the stage where 17th is accurate.

Certainly difficult to gauge where we’re headed. I remain optimistic we’ll get a bounce this year and list evolution will continue that upward trend. But it could very easily be the prelude to an extended cellar dwell.

 

[Mollythedolly]

I'm not saying Stephenson was a bad pick but these are the selections recruiters live and die by. It's easy in hindsight but they've got to get them right. I think it was known for a while that we needed to get in key position players so that one smarts because we should have pulled the trigger on a huge list need. It compounds our problems now.

As others have said, it’s been done to death, but the thing that often gets overlooked in any of these discussions is the list at the time these calls were made. Who were the talls we already had that allowed us to choose (say) mids as a higher priority? I always think it’s generally a little more complex than some seem to suggest.

 

[Masked Magician]

Current Draft Order:

 

[Mollythedolly]

2x7 for Treloar and change.
2x 2nds for Aish.
2 x firsts for Beams and 41,44.
Pick 7 on Stephenson then he, atu and pick 39 traded for 26, 33 and 70. Basically gave him up for pick 26 which was then given to dogs so we could pay them to take Treloar and upgrade that pick to 14...

Pick 2 for N.Daicos points but barely.

This is why there is a dearth in the 20 to 25 group. Just about the entire lot don't even play at the club now and we got sweet fa to show for it.

Yep, this. Why I always advocate draft over trade. No guarantees either way but better value for money at the draft table imho.

 

[sr36]

He was literally the list manager at the time. The mistake was the cost not Treloar.

Even then, if it was overs it wasn't by that much. Treloar was a sure thing, he didn't really improve much, but at 21, when we drafted him he was a lot more valubale than pick 7. Two pick 7s for Treloar and 28 (or whatever that second round pick number was) really wasn't way overs.

 

[Quicky]

As others have said, it’s been done to death, but the thing that often gets overlooked in any of these discussions is the list at the time these calls were made. Who were the talls we already had that allowed us to choose (say) mids as a higher priority? I always think it’s generally a little more complex than some seem to suggest.

Cox, Mihocek, Langdon and Goldsack with Dunn and Moore injured. We badly needed key positions that year.

 

[stormskye]

Current Draft Order:

View attachment 1401193

Really hope we can somehow find a use for 42, 46 and 47. We need more than one first round rounder.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Really hope we can somehow find a use for 42, 46 and 47. We need more than one first round rounder.

Essendon needs points too, yeah? They have 21 if we can’t trade with Brisbane for their first…