List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.
All on this board can agree Grundy hasn't been in the form we expect of him considering what he did in our successful seasons with Bucks but lets look at the data from last season (I am a data guy)

Compared his 2021 season to Max Gawn's:

Grundy averaged more disposals, tackles, hitouts, contested and uncontested possessions, effective disposals.
Gawn averaged more marks both overall and contested (2.3 to 1) and score involvements 4.7 to 5.5.

Grundy was also 3rd as our Ruckman for clearances centre and stoppages overall in 21, and in his 6 games this year he is still in our top 4 for overall for clearances (not average actual total)

How do you assess your Ruckman in 2022? Does he go forward take marks and kick goals? or help your mids win clearances and impact the contest around the ground?

Anyone who thinks we will be better off without him is statistically incorrect, an out of form Grundy is a top 3 ruckman in the competition, in form number #1 no questions asked and of course that is if he finds form (and judging by his personality and what coaches have said about him in the press) hes the ultimate professional and I back him 100% to find his form again.
 
No SPIN said:
I think you are being unfair in comparing Grundy's athleticism to Cameron and McKay, given neither of them are Ruckmen. Not sure how either of them would go playing Ruck against Grundy or have the aerobic capacity to keep up with him.

Both Begg and Jackson are undersized to play first Ruck. Freo are not going to give Jackson the massive contract to play 1st Ruck, given they have Darcy.

De Koning as a 1st Ruckman, I agree is certainly a better athlete than Grundy.
Click to expand...
Mackay is the same size as Grundy and we can easily substitute Daniher for Cameron or King or Thilthorpe… Against other ruckman Ryder at 34 is a better athlete, Naitanui, Stanley, Gawn, English the list goes on. Point being he’s not an extraordinary athlete.

FWIW all cards on the table I fall into the category of preferring to keep Grundy if it improves our best 22, but for me he needs to bring something different to our system at that price tag in order to improve our best 22. sr36 has the right of it, IMO, on how we use him so unless he improves his marking the situation looks bleak. As I said though he’s got 6 weeks to prove you right.

Edit: I should add what we’ve really lacked the past 8 weeks without him is the physical defensive presence he brought to the table the first 6 years of his career. Too many times on the weekend our ruckman we’re bystanders as North waltzed out of the middle whereas prime Grundy would be all in on that side of the ball. It could well be the missing link in our stoppage work although I feel the club are searching for a better balance from our ground level guys.
 
Last edited:

Log in to remove this ad.

Adversity10 said:
All on this board can agree Grundy hasn't been in the form we expect of him considering what he did in our successful seasons with Bucks but lets look at the data from last season (I am a data guy)

Compared his 2021 season to Max Gawn's:

Grundy averaged more disposals, tackles, hitouts, contested and uncontested possessions, effective disposals.
Gawn averaged more marks both overall and contested (2.3 to 1) and score involvements 4.7 to 5.5.

Grundy was also 3rd as our Ruckman for clearances centre and stoppages overall in 21, and in his 6 games this year he is still in our top 4 for overall for clearances (not average actual total)

How do you assess your Ruckman in 2022? Does he go forward take marks and kick goals? or help your mids win clearances and impact the contest around the ground?

Anyone who thinks we will be better off without him is statistically incorrect, an out of form Grundy is a top 3 ruckman in the competition, in form number #1 no questions asked and of course that is if he finds form (and judging by his personality and what coaches have said about him in the press) hes the ultimate professional and I back him 100% to find his form again.
Click to expand...


Brave to believe Grundy outperformed Gawn last year or he was even a top 3 ruckman in 2022.

There's a reasonable chance you're on your own on all 3 counts.
 
Adversity10 said:
All on this board can agree Grundy hasn't been in the form we expect of him considering what he did in our successful seasons with Bucks but lets look at the data from last season (I am a data guy)

Compared his 2021 season to Max Gawn's:

Grundy averaged more disposals, tackles, hitouts, contested and uncontested possessions, effective disposals.
Gawn averaged more marks both overall and contested (2.3 to 1) and score involvements 4.7 to 5.5.

Grundy was also 3rd as our Ruckman for clearances centre and stoppages overall in 21, and in his 6 games this year he is still in our top 4 for overall for clearances (not average actual total)

How do you assess your Ruckman in 2022? Does he go forward take marks and kick goals? or help your mids win clearances and impact the contest around the ground?

Anyone who thinks we will be better off without him is statistically incorrect, an out of form Grundy is a top 3 ruckman in the competition, in form number #1 no questions asked and of course that is if he finds form (and judging by his personality and what coaches have said about him in the press) hes the ultimate professional and I back him 100% to find his form again.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity on the basis of average ranking who’s the statistically highest rated ruckman for goals and contested marks in 2022? Grundy is phenomenal numbers wise in areas that are becoming less relevant for ruckman in 2022. Putting it out there maybe the club would prefer the 8th best ruck in the areas Grundy excels, but who excels at the areas Grundy struggles. They might also be exploring whether it’s worth investing $1.5m into ruckman over the next 3 years…
 
TW Sherrin said:
Brave to believe Grundy outperformed Gawn last year or he was even a top 3 ruckman in 2022.

There's a reasonable chance you're on your own on all 3 counts.
Click to expand...
In that context it makes as much sense as telling people North were the better side statistically on Saturday. I mean it would be a pretty easy argument until you get to the most important one, the scoreboard…
 
Apex36 said:
Id be interested to know our clearance differential from both periods. I know it feels to me like we’re significantly weaker at stoppages, and particularly centre bounces.
Click to expand...

I’m not focused enough to do the whole stats but you are correct- we tend to even things up at stoppage clearances but we’ve been soundly beaten at centre clearances all year, but worse again with Grundy out.

Grundy back will fix that a bit but we need a better centre square four. Adams as an example feels to me to be much better at stoppages around the ground.

The best 3 mids we seem to go with most are Adams, DeGoey and Crispy and they’ve been touched up quite a bit. I’d love to se what Carmichael can deliver as we need to change something in there.

Adams may end up being better in the Lipinski role as well starting on a forward flank and then coming onball after that.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
His name has been floated around a bit in the media, and without wanting to get into a jab v not jab discussion, but what would be the requirements around signing Liam Jones? Is it as simple as signing as F/A or through one of the drafts?
Will only be 32 when R1 of 2023 rolls around, and showed in his last years at Carlton he was a very consistent KPD. With only Darcy as a true KPD, with the likes of Dean, McMahon developing in the wings, he would make a lot of sense to bring in as cheap KPD depth at worst, if not a best 22 KPD in his own right.

I'll caveat this by saying I have no idea on his fitness, if he's even playing footy at any level this year, but I know he's met with at least Essendon the last few weeks and I am sure more clubs will be sounding him out if he was looking for a return to AFL football.
 
Piestration said:
As I said he has pour skills and also pour awareness. I wouldn't be comfortable Grundy making decisions in the backline. He is suspect with his disposal so transfer through the middle is risky and he is poor at marking so can't see him being a KF. So possibly McCrae could turn his marking around and turn him into a target? I just don't see Grundy on the lead as he's also not quick. Maybe he could bulk up a bit and improve his ruckwork but then it would alter his jumping capabilities?
Click to expand...

So should have been a bartender? Or maybe a concreter?
 
GCPie said:
Last time I checked Goals and Point win you games as this is not the Summer Olympics.

2022 - Grundy 6 games 2 goals,
2021 20 games 12 goals.
Combined 26 games 14 goals 0.54 goals per game.

2022 - Cameron 15 games 15 goals,
2021 - 18 games 22 goals.
Combined 33 games 37 goals 1.12 goals per game = more than double Grundy's output.

Big money contracts are for the guys that score or prevent the opposition from scoring.

Compare the contract values of Cameron and Grundy.

I think Grundy will have to prove his worth, to the Club, when he returns.

Time will tell if he is worth it.
Click to expand...
Can you also post the amount of time each player has spent inside forward 50 because then you'll find your argument ridiculous. Reg plays onball 90% of the time.
 
Scodog10 said:
Mackay is the same size as Grundy and we can easily substitute Daniher for Cameron or King or Thilthorpe… Against other ruckman Ryder at 34 is a better athlete, Naitanui, Stanley, Gawn, English the list goes on. Point being he’s not an extraordinary athlete.

FWIW all cards on the table I fall into the category of preferring to keep Grundy if it improves our best 22, but for me he needs to bring something different to our system at that price tag in order to improve our best 22. sr36 has the right of it, IMO, on how we use him so unless he improves his marking the situation looks bleak. As I said though he’s got 6 weeks to prove you right.

Edit: I should add what we’ve really lacked the past 8 weeks without him is the physical defensive presence he brought to the table the first 6 years of his career. Too many times on the weekend our ruckman we’re bystanders as North waltzed out of the middle whereas prime Grundy would be all in on that side of the ball. It could well be the missing link in our stoppage work although I feel the club are searching for a better balance from our ground level guys.
Click to expand...
It’s got to be positional equivalence in assessing Grundy’s athleticism - so only Ruckman. In your list Nat is better than Grundy but lacks a tank. Can’t agree on Gawn, and Stanley is probably line ball.
Ryder in terms of pure athleticism is the best IMO.
That said Grundy is well placed in that comparison.
Agree we’ve lacked his physical presence and that he needs to now prove he’s adapted to make us a better 22.
 
Scodog10 said:
Out of curiosity on the basis of average ranking who’s the statistically highest rated ruckman for goals and contested marks in 2022?
Click to expand...

For Ruckmen contested marks Gawn is number #1 and Darcy Cameron is #2 (Gawn 4th overall in the comp, Cameron 10th overall) this is going by total, the interesting number is going by Average both Cameron is 11th overall in the competition Mason Cox is 8th overall in the competition) Which stacks up when you consider they're both in my humble opinion Forward/Rucks compared to a pure #1

Cameron is tied at first for total goals but on Average 1 goal a game which puts him 3rd overall on average for rucks.

But again it comes down to the argument of what do you want from your #1 Ruckman? How do you measure the best ruckman? Because even if you're looking at hitouts to advantage Grundy in an off year was top 4, Do you want your rucks to generate more clearances? impose around the ground and get dispoals? or purely take contested marks and kick goals? If its the later then i don't understand how it's even a debate at Collingwood, Grundy rucks Cameron starts forward and pinch hits.

The next argument is, what's a top 3-4 Ruckman in the comp actually worth?

TW Sherrin said:
Brave to believe Grundy outperformed Gawn last year or he was even a top 3 ruckman in 2022.

There's a reasonable chance you're on your own on all 3 counts.
Click to expand...

I was comparing his off year to Max Gawns AA year, I was purely pointing out statistically Grundy in a pretty ordinary year is still a top 3-4 Ruckman. Is he worth a mil a year off last year, No. Are we better with him in the team regardless of what he's being paid Yes.
 
Last edited:

(Log in to remove this ad.)

I’m not sure if anyone watched / listened to Fox Footy’s First Crack this Sunday.

David King spoke about how Geelong is using Mark Blicavs as a Ruck & Midfielder. Rhys Stanley was being used as a Forward & Ruckman.

Blicavs runs with a midfielder when not in the ruck and Stanley runs with the ruckman.

When Blicavs is in the ruck he runs with the ruck.

I think we could implement something similar for Grundy and Cameron.
 
Chrispiesssss said:
I’m not sure if anyone watched / listened to Fox Footy’s First Crack this Sunday.

David King spoke about how Geelong is using Mark Blicavs as a Ruck & Midfielder. Rhys Stanley was being used as a Forward & Ruckman.

Blicavs runs with a midfielder when not in the ruck and Stanley runs with the ruckman.

When Blicavs is in the ruck he runs with the ruck.

I think we could implement something similar for Grundy and Cameron.
Click to expand...
Blicavs is a former steeplechaser who has one of the best tanks in the entire league. You’re kidding yourself if you think Grundy could do the same thing.
 
Chrispiesssss said:
I’m not sure if anyone watched / listened to Fox Footy’s First Crack this Sunday.

David King spoke about how Geelong is using Mark Blicavs as a Ruck & Midfielder. Rhys Stanley was being used as a Forward & Ruckman.

Blicavs runs with a midfielder when not in the ruck and Stanley runs with the ruckman.

When Blicavs is in the ruck he runs with the ruck.

I think we could implement something similar for Grundy and Cameron.
Click to expand...
 
Chrispiesssss said:
I’m not sure if anyone watched / listened to Fox Footy’s First Crack this Sunday.

David King spoke about how Geelong is using Mark Blicavs as a Ruck & Midfielder. Rhys Stanley was being used as a Forward & Ruckman.

Blicavs runs with a midfielder when not in the ruck and Stanley runs with the ruckman.

When Blicavs is in the ruck he runs with the ruck.

I think we could implement something similar for Grundy and Cameron.
Click to expand...
No Go. Blicavs is a supreme athlete. No comparison .
 
To be fair, Blicavs is probably the best athlete in the AFL and is a bit of a unicorn in terms of his size vs mobility and running power. No slight on Grundy that he's not able to play a role as unique as that.
 
Chrispiesssss said:
I feel like he covers a lot of ground for a ruckman. He usually rucks 85% of the game.
Click to expand...
Key words: for a ruckman.
Blicavs running as a mid at his size is not normal. For context, his best 2km time trial time is 5m 39s. That’s about 30 seconds faster than Sidey does it. Grundy usually comes last or close to it. Now the 2k isn’t the be all or end all of endurance, but it gives you an idea of why Blicavs is capable of running with midfielders.
 
Adversity10 said:
For Ruckmen contested marks Gawn is number #1 and Darcy Cameron is #2 (Gawn 4th overall in the comp, Cameron 10th overall) this is going by total, the interesting number is going by Average both Cameron is 11th overall in the competition Mason Cox is 8th overall in the competition) Which stacks up when you consider they're both in my humble opinion Forward/Rucks compared to a pure #1

Cameron is tied at first for total goals but on Average 1 goal a game which puts him 3rd overall on average for rucks.

But again it comes down to the argument of what do you want from your #1 Ruckman? How do you measure the best ruckman? Because even if you're looking at hitouts to advantage Grundy in an off year was top 4, Do you want your rucks to generate more clearances? impose around the ground and get dispoals? or purely take contested marks and kick goals? If its the later then i don't understand how it's even a debate at Collingwood, Grundy rucks Cameron starts forward and pinch hits.

The next argument is, what's a top 3-4 Ruckman in the comp actually worth?



I was comparing his off year to Max Gawns AA year, I was purely pointing out statistically Grundy in a pretty ordinary year is still a top 3-4 Ruckman. Is he worth a mil a year off last year, No. Are we better with him in the team regardless of what he's being paid Yes.
Click to expand...

Reality is that Grundy wasn't in the 10 best ruckman in the afl last year.
 
Scodog10 said:
Depending on what we do with the salary that works for me. As long as you don’t get a Treloar scenario with an unders trade and paying his salary we could find ourselves in a good position.

The problem is if we were to shift his contract only to load up with McStay, Hill etc that’s an L. I don’t mind either BTW, but that’s a list shaping chunk of salary which those two are not.
Click to expand...

Balanced and common sense response- that’s how it’s done. Some people on this site just shut the whole idea of it down because it just feel wrong. I hope to God Grundy comes good and goes AA again but what he has dished up in the last few years is absolutely garbage for a million a year player when you see what Cox & Cameron can/have done. Some times you win some times you lose

Personally a second rd and all of his salary gone is a win - a first rounder would be even better!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Adversity10 said:
For Ruckmen contested marks Gawn is number #1 and Darcy Cameron is #2 (Gawn 4th overall in the comp, Cameron 10th overall) this is going by total, the interesting number is going by Average both Cameron is 11th overall in the competition Mason Cox is 8th overall in the competition) Which stacks up when you consider they're both in my humble opinion Forward/Rucks compared to a pure #1

Cameron is tied at first for total goals but on Average 1 goal a game which puts him 3rd overall on average for rucks.

But again it comes down to the argument of what do you want from your #1 Ruckman? How do you measure the best ruckman? Because even if you're looking at hitouts to advantage Grundy in an off year was top 4, Do you want your rucks to generate more clearances? impose around the ground and get dispoals? or purely take contested marks and kick goals? If its the later then i don't understand how it's even a debate at Collingwood, Grundy rucks Cameron starts forward and pinch hits.

The next argument is, what's a top 3-4 Ruckman in the comp actually worth?



I was comparing his off year to Max Gawns AA year, I was purely pointing out statistically Grundy in a pretty ordinary year is still a top 3-4 Ruckman. Is he worth a mil a year off last year, No. Are we better with him in the team regardless of what he's being paid Yes.
Click to expand...
It was a loaded question because I was looking at the numbers just yesterday. When judging across both categories Cameron is the number 1 ruck in the competition this year.

Influence is the measure. Goals and contested marks from big men have the greatest influence on matches, IMO. A top 3-4 ruckman is worth $600-800k with Gawn the exception as a club captain and team barometer hence his 5 consecutive AA jumpers…
 
Last edited:
I think the Grundy chatter is BS but if it were to eventuate for whatever reason, surely a player swap to improve the side in another position must be facilitated either by straight swap or with a third club. To swap him for Josh Dunkley or Nick Larkey, would be a solid result.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Remove this Banner Ad

Similar threads

Exambolor
Autopsy Collingwood Past Trades Circular Discussion
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
Jelly Bean
Jelly Bean
Antz
News Charlie Gardiner appointed as Collingwood's new head of football
2 3
Replies
57
Views
3K
watt price tully
W
Axe
Collingwood Board SuperCoach 2025
Replies
17
Views
292
Eric Shin
Eric Shin
TradeDraft
List Mgmt. 2025 Trade/FA Thread
13 14 15 16 17
Replies
412
Views
25K
Apex36
Apex36
1
COLLINGWOOD. NEXT 5 YEARS?
5 6 7 8 9
Replies
200
Views
8K
sr36
sr36
Mostfamousclub_Pies
Collingwood legends who haven’t played in a premiership side.
2 3
Replies
50
Views
2K
Mostfamousclub_Pies
Mostfamousclub_Pies
Apples
Didaka Award: Freo vs Collingwood
Replies
5
Views
331
Dead Eye Didak
Dead Eye Didak

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top