List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade & FA 2024

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No SPIN said:
Dempsey ( who really isn’t a HBF) was not in the same draft year as Ryan.
Humphries at pick 63 was highly speculative and will be a lottery win for Geel. Demattia at pick 25 was always a safer choice on exposed form than Humphries.
You can’t credibly snipe at Hine without having evidence to prove your point. And without evidence “commenting on what we have” has no context.
Without evidence, you’re like all the others here who offer vacuous and irrational criticism of Hine.
I think you’re far better than them.
Click to expand...
Bro, the evidence is right in front of your face. Both players are already better than what we have. What evidence do you have that Both those players aren't better than what we have. The wraps on humphries have been there all year . We are talking about late speculative picks and all recruiters get many wrong. There's nothing wrong with questioning the type of players Hine picks up with late picks in the draft. He could do better, there's nothing wrong with that
 
sam_e said:
Lachie Cowan taken at pick 30 instead of Ryan (pick 28) was the one he should have taken ..said it at the time, even more obvious now.

Cowan is 188cm / 82+ kgs, hard, fast, powerful, defensively disciplined, good in the air / on the ground, good skills, has played 7 senior games in 2023 and 11 games in 2024 (has been staple in Carlton back-6 since round 7).

He projects as someone that could play wing or move on-ball as he gets more experience.

Ryan on the other hand looks meek, plodder, weak in the contest, chip kicks sideways / backwards ..a mile off it.
Click to expand...
I thought at draft time it was a toss up.

Ryan’s form leading up to his AFL selection was very good - intercepting and distributing well. And people were lauding that we’d found a good one.
But he’s never recovered that form since the concussion.
 

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No SPIN said:
I thought at draft time it was a toss up.

Ryan’s form leading up to his AFL selection was very good - intercepting and distributing well. And people were lauding that we’d found a good one.
But he’s never recovered that form since the concussion.
Click to expand...
He's also been hampered by injury this year, hasnt had the continuity. Hopefully once he recovers from his calf he can get some footy in preparation for pre-season.
 
manicpie said:
Bro, the evidence is right in front of your face. Both players are already better than what we have. What evidence do you have that Both those players aren't better than what we have. The wraps on humphries have been there all year . We are talking about late speculative picks and all recruiters get many wrong. There's nothing wrong with questioning the type of players Hine picks up with late picks in the draft. He could do better, there's nothing wrong with that
Click to expand...
All I can offer you is a rational outline why Hine chose Ryan and Demattia per above post.

On Humphries, at pick 63 every recruiter missed him, until finally Geel threw him a lifeline.
Every recruiter would have chosen Demattia over Humphries, because they are not in the business of backing long shots.
 
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No SPIN said:
I thought at draft time it was a toss up.

Ryan’s form leading up to his AFL selection was very good - intercepting and distributing well. And people were lauding that we’d found a good one.
But he’s never recovered that form since the concussion.
Click to expand...
have to disagree Spinny. watch Ryan's highlights reel, he picks up many of his possessions just kicking out from goal and most of his kicks go 15-yards sideways (to a pocket) or long to no-one in particular.

more concerning for mine was the lack of any contested stuff which is a glaring weakness of his time in the vfl to-date. he also runs with a gait that looks like his knees are knocking ..

just can't see it with him at all

ps: not trying to pot any players but i've been calling out Hine's poor recent DRAFTING record for a while.

the new / previous CFC board ushered in new personnel in key footballing positions, across the board - CEO, GM Football, senior coach, assistant coaches - but Hine's tenure continues. not sure what the KPIs are for his role but, in recent times, his strike-rate is shit-house and his (or the club's) 'too-kool-for-school, smarter than the rest' shopping for talls in the $2 discount SSP basket, is absolutely infuriating - for me at least - and a loser strategy!

(yeah, yeah, we won the flag in '23, but it's NOT mutually exclusive ...ie. we can win the flag and also maximise what we're selecting in the draft and how we're valuing our 1st round draft picks).
 
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sam_e said:
Caleb Daniel ain’t the solution (nor part thereof) to our lack of run & ability to move it from D50 and he would get mercilessly exposed down back defensively, as has happened at the Bulldogs.

Our zonal defence doesn’t mitigate his lack of height, it exacerbates it. If you play 1v1 man-on-man (which hardly anyone does anymore) you pick the guy that matches your height /weight /mobility etc and go and defend him. Even if you’re taken to the goals-square at least you have the best ‘physical match’ available from the oppo’s attack. If, however, you play a step-forward /next-man-roll defence, which we do, then you could roll across to guard or defend someone much taller & heavier than you. One of the reasons why Noble was dropped end of last year bc he consistently became the weak link in a rolling defensive chain. Daniels likewise, would be a massive weakness in this style of system defence.

In any event, before you spend $750k /year on a non-key part of the rebuild jigsaw, Joey Richards could easily play a similar distribution role from half-back at one-fifth of the price. He’s quicker than Daniel’s and, only a handful of games into his career, has way more upside.

Ps: our rebound D50 isn’t currently the ‘burning’ issue, in fact, we’re still heavily skewed scoring profile wise, in D50 transition goals.

What’s fallen away heavily is
i. leaking goals in transition (system defence from f50 to d50 is broken);
ii. getting destroyed at CB & losing clearance (Pendles too slow; JDG lacking defensive intent; lack of other viable options to roll through eg. McCreery, Hill, Elliott, Maynard ..need more soldiers that can go into CB, compete & at least break-even) and
iii. inability to gain or sustain territory (playing Coxless and with such an under-sized forward line means we don’t have a down-the-line marking option or presence to aerially contest & bring the ball to ground ..therefore getting stuck in our D50 with repeat entry after repeat entry).

The lack of marking talls also means we have only one route to exit our d50 and that is through run ‘n gun chaos style, either by hand or foot. Oppo teams know this and are shutting it down /pressuring us until we give it back. The lack of a get out of jail tall option (Kreuger can’t mark above his head; WHE is ok one-out but is a flanker punching outside his weight division, Reef is played for 30 seconds at end of games etc) is really hampering our ability to move and control the ball, gain territory and, unsurprisingly, results in this haphazard one quarter “on” and three quarters “defend for your life” outcome.

Run n gun chaos is super tiring and not sustainable for 4Qs. But the burning issue is our inability to defend the ground ie. defensive system broken and individuals also out of form.

Collective defence:
-Method: predisposition to come forward at all costs, irrespective of whether you’re going to impact the ball carrier and/or leave a guy in a more dangerous position, needs to be addressed. Mid-bloc set-up, giving the oppo, free rein to move the ball in their defensive third - and latterly their own half - is also part of the system breaking down
-Attack (1st line of defence) - Lippa too slow can’t close space, Schultz also is not the quickest, missing McCreery speed & manic pressure,
-Mids - often, too many rolling the dice & running forward of the ball
-Defence - defenders out of form (see Moore, IQ), Frampton too reactionary /lacks intensity, Dean very slow off the mark & no jump
Click to expand...
Geez I like the way you think!! This is all exactly my thoughts on the issue as well. Everyone has been concentrating on Getting McStay back as icing on the cake and we've no cake!!
The loss of McCreery is HUGE. He's been able to make up for so much of our slow mids defensive efforts.
The Loss of Murphy has been well documented but just his spirit as much as anything else was so emblumatic of our entire team last year.
The absence of Mitchell and McCrae's inability to come on has left us that grunt mid short and the forward line without Checkers, Cox, McStay and Billy for much of the year is just asking too much.

Great summation above, love it.
 
sam_e said:
have to disagree Spinny. watch Ryan's highlights reel, he picks up many of his possessions just kicking out from goal and most of his kicks go 15-yards sideways (to a pocket) or long to no-one in particular.

more concerning for mine was the lack of any contested stuff which is a glaring weakness of his time in the vfl to-date. he also runs with a gait that looks like his knees are knocking ..

just can't see it with him at all
Click to expand...
Agree - but he’s a completely different player today than pre concussion.
It’s been a very unfortunate decline.
 
manicpie said:
Bro, the evidence is right in front of your face. Both players are already better than what we have. What evidence do you have that Both those players aren't better than what we have. The wraps on humphries have been there all year . We are talking about late speculative picks and all recruiters get many wrong. There's nothing wrong with questioning the type of players Hine picks up with late picks in the draft. He could do better, there's nothing wrong with that
Click to expand...
A kind of tend to agree, while the jury is not out on DeMattia his numbers as a junior weren't great and they say you should go for 'best available'. What annoys me about the 'best available' is that Logan Morris may have been best available and a fills a need.

There are a couple of others that I would suggest may have fallen under the best available in that draft and admittedly hindsight is 2020.

Lastly if you look at the position that DeMattia plays we could have used a later pick on an Archie Roberts who was pick 54, who currently playing quite.

Again hindsight is 2020, look at where Max Holmes was taken in to 2020 draft, but we have missed on a couple who would probably be playing senior footy + clubs aren't champing at the bit for some of our younger talent.
 
Last edited:
sam_e said:
Caleb Daniel ain’t the solution (nor part thereof) to our lack of run & ability to move it from D50 and he would get mercilessly exposed down back defensively, as has happened at the Bulldogs.

Our zonal defence doesn’t mitigate his lack of height, it exacerbates it. If you play 1v1 man-on-man (which hardly anyone does anymore) you pick the guy that matches your height /weight /mobility etc and go and defend him. Even if you’re taken to the goals-square at least you have the best ‘physical match’ available from the oppo’s attack. If, however, you play a step-forward /next-man-roll defence, which we do, then you could roll across to guard or defend someone much taller & heavier than you. One of the reasons why Noble was dropped end of last year bc he consistently became the weak link in a rolling defensive chain. Daniels likewise, would be a massive weakness in this style of system defence.

In any event, before you spend $750k /year on a non-key part of the rebuild jigsaw, Joey Richards could easily play a similar distribution role from half-back at one-fifth of the price. He’s quicker than Daniel’s and, only a handful of games into his career, has way more upside.

Ps: our rebound D50 isn’t currently the ‘burning’ issue, in fact, we’re still heavily skewed scoring profile wise, in D50 transition goals.

What’s fallen away heavily is
i. leaking goals in transition (system defence from f50 to d50 is broken);
ii. getting destroyed at CB & losing clearance (Pendles too slow; JDG lacking defensive intent; lack of other viable options to roll through eg. McCreery, Hill, Elliott, Maynard ..need more soldiers that can go into CB, compete & at least break-even) and
iii. inability to gain or sustain territory (playing Coxless and with such an under-sized forward line means we don’t have a down-the-line marking option or presence to aerially contest & bring the ball to ground ..therefore getting stuck in our D50 with repeat entry after repeat entry).

The lack of marking talls also means we have only one route to exit our d50 and that is through run ‘n gun chaos style, either by hand or foot. Oppo teams know this and are shutting it down /pressuring us until we give it back. The lack of a get out of jail tall option (Kreuger can’t mark above his head; WHE is ok one-out but is a flanker punching outside his weight division, Reef is played for 30 seconds at end of games etc) is really hampering our ability to move and control the ball, gain territory and, unsurprisingly, results in this haphazard one quarter “on” and three quarters “defend for your life” outcome.

Run n gun chaos is super tiring and not sustainable for 4Qs. But the burning issue is our inability to defend the ground ie. defensive system broken and individuals also out of form.

Collective defence:
-Method: predisposition to come forward at all costs, irrespective of whether you’re going to impact the ball carrier and/or leave a guy in a more dangerous position, needs to be addressed. Mid-bloc set-up, giving the oppo, free rein to move the ball in their defensive third - and latterly their own half - is also part of the system breaking down
-Attack (1st line of defence) - Lippa too slow can’t close space, Schultz also is not the quickest, missing McCreery speed & manic pressure,
-Mids - often, too many rolling the dice & running forward of the ball
-Defence - defenders out of form (see Moore, IQ), Frampton too reactionary /lacks intensity, Dean very slow off the mark & no jump
Click to expand...

Great summary

Regarding our broken system defence - is it the system itself that you think is not workable, or do you see other causes?

I can see the opposition retaining the ball and avoiding pressure on the ball is making it worse, but I really think the positioning among our tall backs is way worse this year because of personnel. The synergy is terrible and we arent getting any intercept marks. How do you see it?
 
sam_e said:
Caleb Daniel ain’t the solution (nor part thereof) to our lack of run & ability to move it from D50 and he would get mercilessly exposed down back defensively, as has happened at the Bulldogs.

Our zonal defence doesn’t mitigate his lack of height, it exacerbates it. If you play 1v1 man-on-man (which hardly anyone does anymore) you pick the guy that matches your height /weight /mobility etc and go and defend him. Even if you’re taken to the goals-square at least you have the best ‘physical match’ available from the oppo’s attack. If, however, you play a step-forward /next-man-roll defence, which we do, then you could roll across to guard or defend someone much taller & heavier than you. One of the reasons why Noble was dropped end of last year bc he consistently became the weak link in a rolling defensive chain. Daniels likewise, would be a massive weakness in this style of system defence.

In any event, before you spend $750k /year on a non-key part of the rebuild jigsaw, Joey Richards could easily play a similar distribution role from half-back at one-fifth of the price. He’s quicker than Daniel’s and, only a handful of games into his career, has way more upside.

Ps: our rebound D50 isn’t currently the ‘burning’ issue, in fact, we’re still heavily skewed scoring profile wise, in D50 transition goals.

What’s fallen away heavily is
i. leaking goals in transition (system defence from f50 to d50 is broken);
ii. getting destroyed at CB & losing clearance (Pendles too slow; JDG lacking defensive intent; lack of other viable options to roll through eg. McCreery, Hill, Elliott, Maynard ..need more soldiers that can go into CB, compete & at least break-even) and
iii. inability to gain or sustain territory (playing Coxless and with such an under-sized forward line means we don’t have a down-the-line marking option or presence to aerially contest & bring the ball to ground ..therefore getting stuck in our D50 with repeat entry after repeat entry).

The lack of marking talls also means we have only one route to exit our d50 and that is through run ‘n gun chaos style, either by hand or foot. Oppo teams know this and are shutting it down /pressuring us until we give it back. The lack of a get out of jail tall option (Kreuger can’t mark above his head; WHE is ok one-out but is a flanker punching outside his weight division, Reef is played for 30 seconds at end of games etc) is really hampering our ability to move and control the ball, gain territory and, unsurprisingly, results in this haphazard one quarter “on” and three quarters “defend for your life” outcome.

Run n gun chaos is super tiring and not sustainable for 4Qs. But the burning issue is our inability to defend the ground ie. defensive system broken and individuals also out of form.

Collective defence:
-Method: predisposition to come forward at all costs, irrespective of whether you’re going to impact the ball carrier and/or leave a guy in a more dangerous position, needs to be addressed. Mid-bloc set-up, giving the oppo, free rein to move the ball in their defensive third - and latterly their own half - is also part of the system breaking down
-Attack (1st line of defence) - Lippa too slow can’t close space, Schultz also is not the quickest, missing McCreery speed & manic pressure,
-Mids - often, too many rolling the dice & running forward of the ball
-Defence - defenders out of form (see Moore, IQ), Frampton too reactionary /lacks intensity, Dean very slow off the mark & no jump
Click to expand...
Excellent analysis sam_e. I'd add to point ii. that we're missing Mitchell (picked a bad year to trade Adams).
 

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satanshoof101 said:
A kind of tend to agree, while the jury is not out on DeMattia his numbers as a junior weren't great and they say you should go for 'best available'. What annoys me about the 'best available' is that Logan Morris may have been best available and a fills a need.

There are a couple of others that I would suggest may have fallen under the best available in that draft and admittedly hindsight is 2020.

Lastly if you look at the position that DeMattia plays we could have used a later pick on an Archie Roberts who was pick 54, who currently playing quite.

Again hindsight is 2020, look at where Max Holmes was taken in to 2020 draft, but we have missed on a couple who would probably be playing senior footy + clubs aren't champing at the bit for some of our younger talent.
Click to expand...
Yep, there's been quite a few poor choices. The Logan Morris one is going to hurt, especially as we don't have a Checkers replacement . Geelong went for pace and athleticism in their later picks. DeMattia was always a speculative pick and wasn't the best player at that pick. I don't class HDM as best available. We are going to have to be better from this year on
 
sam_e said:
Caleb Daniel ain’t the solution (nor part thereof) to our lack of run & ability to move it from D50 and he would get mercilessly exposed down back defensively, as has happened at the Bulldogs.

Our zonal defence doesn’t mitigate his lack of height, it exacerbates it. If you play 1v1 man-on-man (which hardly anyone does anymore) you pick the guy that matches your height /weight /mobility etc and go and defend him. Even if you’re taken to the goals-square at least you have the best ‘physical match’ available from the oppo’s attack. If, however, you play a step-forward /next-man-roll defence, which we do, then you could roll across to guard or defend someone much taller & heavier than you. One of the reasons why Noble was dropped end of last year bc he consistently became the weak link in a rolling defensive chain. Daniels likewise, would be a massive weakness in this style of system defence.

In any event, before you spend $750k /year on a non-key part of the rebuild jigsaw, Joey Richards could easily play a similar distribution role from half-back at one-fifth of the price. He’s quicker than Daniel’s and, only a handful of games into his career, has way more upside.

Ps: our rebound D50 isn’t currently the ‘burning’ issue, in fact, we’re still heavily skewed scoring profile wise, in D50 transition goals.

What’s fallen away heavily is
i. leaking goals in transition (system defence from f50 to d50 is broken);
ii. getting destroyed at CB & losing clearance (Pendles too slow; JDG lacking defensive intent; lack of other viable options to roll through eg. McCreery, Hill, Elliott, Maynard ..need more soldiers that can go into CB, compete & at least break-even) and
iii. inability to gain or sustain territory (playing Coxless and with such an under-sized forward line means we don’t have a down-the-line marking option or presence to aerially contest & bring the ball to ground ..therefore getting stuck in our D50 with repeat entry after repeat entry).

The lack of marking talls also means we have only one route to exit our d50 and that is through run ‘n gun chaos style, either by hand or foot. Oppo teams know this and are shutting it down /pressuring us until we give it back. The lack of a get out of jail tall option (Kreuger can’t mark above his head; WHE is ok one-out but is a flanker punching outside his weight division, Reef is played for 30 seconds at end of games etc) is really hampering our ability to move and control the ball, gain territory and, unsurprisingly, results in this haphazard one quarter “on” and three quarters “defend for your life” outcome.

Run n gun chaos is super tiring and not sustainable for 4Qs. But the burning issue is our inability to defend the ground ie. defensive system broken and individuals also out of form.

Collective defence:
-Method: predisposition to come forward at all costs, irrespective of whether you’re going to impact the ball carrier and/or leave a guy in a more dangerous position, needs to be addressed. Mid-bloc set-up, giving the oppo, free rein to move the ball in their defensive third - and latterly their own half - is also part of the system breaking down
-Attack (1st line of defence) - Lippa too slow can’t close space, Schultz also is not the quickest, missing McCreery speed & manic pressure,
-Mids - often, too many rolling the dice & running forward of the ball
-Defence - defenders out of form (see Moore, IQ), Frampton too reactionary /lacks intensity, Dean very slow off the mark & no jump
Click to expand...
You wouldn't recruit him to play a defensive role. It'd be for the Nick Daicos back of the pack role. We're missing a good ball user doing that job for us. There are obviously better options - but not necessarily gettable better options. We'll still be in flag mode next year - he'll be bargain basement and would probably improve us.
 
danielnajdek said:
So we need a couple of HBF's , a couple of mids to put alongside Nick , A key back and a key forward. Apart from that we are fine.
Click to expand...
I still think we are well down the road in line for Bailey Smith.
Not having a pick this year won’t hinder us as we can always trade our future 1st which would be far more attractive than the cats’ first rounder this year.

I’d be pushing hard to land him because we really need some ready made replacements now of quality
 
HFF said:
I still think we are well down the road in line for Bailey Smith.
Not having a pick this year won’t hinder us as we can always trade our future 1st which would be far more attractive than the cats’ first rounder this year.

I’d be pushing hard to land him because we really need some ready made replacements now of quality
Click to expand...
"Collingwood were initially thought to be in the race for the star 23-year-old, but seem to have gotten lost in the growing interest from Hawthorn and appeal of Geelong. At the time of writing, it’s a coin flip on where the midfielder will land out of the Cats and Hawks."
 
Jen2310 said:
"Collingwood were initially thought to be in the race for the star 23-year-old, but seem to have gotten lost in the growing interest from Hawthorn and appeal of Geelong. At the time of writing, it’s a coin flip on where the midfielder will land out of the Cats and Hawks."
Click to expand...
Let’s see.
I don’t think we were keen and then just dropped interest considering we have plenty of money to spend
 
sr36 said:
You wouldn't recruit him to play a defensive role. It'd be for the Nick Daicos back of the pack role. We're missing a good ball user doing that job for us. There are obviously better options - but not necessarily gettable better options. We'll still be in flag mode next year - he'll be bargain basement and would probably improve us.
Click to expand...
This, in spades. If our mids are not applying pressure up the ground, our defensive system breaks down. It's why we need to become more athletic and accountable in the midfield.

Where we hurt teams is when we can force them to either dump kick or kick the ball to a contest in our backline, create a contest, win the ball and then transition before the opposition has enough time to get its defensive shape back. That transition is so much more effective when someone like Daniel or Naicos is the one making the decision and executing the kick out of our defensive 50.
 
HFF said:
Let’s see.
I don’t think we were keen and then just dropped interest considering we have plenty of money to spend
Click to expand...
I don't think we quite have a lot of money. Yet. I'm sure we have some but not bucket loads.
I think the word was that will come in the next 12 months when players retire.
 
Jen2310 said:
I don't think we quite have a lot of money. Yet. I'm sure we have some but not bucket loads.
I think the word was that will come in the next 12 months when players retire.
Click to expand...
Even if it is in 12 months time that is still current.

We need to be very active this off season and not wait until next years off season.
 

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