News Collingwood's Best 22 - Herald Sun Predictions

[Mick98]

Im sick of harry

Fortunately for us Buck's is the coach and not you

 

[jmac70]

Im sick of harry

Well that's a good reason to get rid of him.

 

[jmac70]

Came out of the club

Oh great, someone with inside knowledge. Can you please tell us if Ben Reid is going to stay?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Harry him self wants out... to carlton

Then start a rumour thread about potential 2015 list changes. This thread is about 2014 best 22. This years list is fixed and Harry is on the list and is best 22.

 

[Hinequarters]

SEN
Williams Brown Lumumba
Seedsman Keeffe Toovey

Grundy Pendlebury Beams
Thomas Sidebottom Adams

Swan Reid Freeman
White Cloke Elliott

Ball Fasolo Young Blair

RES
Sinclair Frost Scharenberg
Goldsack Oxley Maxwell

Witts Broomhead Macaffer
Dwyer Armstrong Langdon

Mooney Marsh Karnezis
Martin Lynch Kennedy

Ramsay Hudson Clarke Yagmoor Gault

 

[Manic Magpie]

I am not sure I like the idea of Harry at Carlton. Why didn't he make an attempt to go this year? If Collingwood supporters believe he is off to Carlton next year, how will Harry survive the year psychologically? Surely he wouldn't play his hand this early! As a free agent, he should probably look after himself financially at this stage of his career.

 

[Mick98]

I am not sure I like the idea of Harry at Carlton. Why didn't he make an attempt to go this year? If Collingwood supporters believe he is off to Carlton next year, how will Harry survive the year psychologically? Surely he wouldn't play his hand this early! As a free agent, he should probably look after himself financially at this stage of his career.

Umm yeah

 

[Masked Magician]

I am not sure I like the idea of Harry at Carlton. Why didn't he make an attempt to go this year? If Collingwood supporters believe he is off to Carlton next year, how will Harry survive the year psychologically? Surely he wouldn't play his hand this early! As a free agent, he should probably look after himself financially at this stage of his career.

He did

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Im sick of harry

Why? What has he done to you?

 

[piedpiper32]

It's a poor team listed and it's really the name players who have been on the list for some time. You'd hope a few younger players come through if this team wants to finish inside the top 8.

I'd have Seedsman in for a declined Maxwell who doesn't fit our gameplan with his lack of 1v1 ability and Scharenberg for Young down back as the better rounded player with a better 1v1 game, better intercept marking ability and a more reliable but still damaging kick.

Blair, Goldsack and Macaffer I'd look to replace with Broomhead, Martin and Fasolo if healthy who are all better talents. Karnezis if he produces is another I'd very strongly consider as an alternative.

B: Alan Toovey Lachlan Keeffe Marley Williams
HB: Matthew Scharenberg Nathan Brown Paul Seedsman
CEN: Dayne Beams Scott Pendlebury Harry O'Brien
HF: Steele Sidebottom Jesse White Taylor Adams
F: Ben Reid Travis Cloke Jamie Elliott
FOLL: Brodie Grundy Luke Ball Dane Swan
BENCH: Josh Thomas Tim Broomhead Kyle Martin Alex Fasolo
*Sub to be rotated.

Excellent Best 22 KM and agree with pretty much all the guys selected.
Noticed you have Reid in the forward line whereas previously you have been calling for him to remain down back. With the loss of Heath Shaw's run and kicking as well as Reid's intercept marking and 60m bullets, this robs us of two of our best and quickest ways to counterattack. Marley's kicking is not the best, Brown always looks to handball, and Toovey and Keefe seem to prefer the short to medium kicks to a target, rather than the long, penetrating kicks into the forward line. Scharenberg seems like a competent kick from the limited highlights I have seen, however yet to see how he performs under the pressure at AFL level. That leaves only Seedsman as someone who can get the ball forward quickly and reasonably accurately. Do you think transition from defence to offence will be an issue?

I think we will see Reid swing between the forward and back lines for much of the year based on match-ups and game day strategies. For the teams with a number of potent tall forwards (Sydney comes to mind) he would probably be required to go back. We could then play a smaller forward line as there is still plenty of marking power with Cloke, White, and Elliott playing above his size, as well as the option of resting a Pendlebury or Swan up forward. Goldsack and Karnezis might be other options as the third mobile tall.

 

[blaze036]

With Harry I imagine he would be among the top 25% of earners. If he is that makes him a restricted free agent and as a restricted free agent Collingwood have the opportunity to match any offer Carlton make for Harry if Collingwood so choose giving us the option to say yes/no as we did with Daisy.

And given the choice I'd be matching any reasonable deal Carlton make with Harry an asset and someone like we'll see with Shaw this year you can't replace as one of the better players in the competition by position.

Unless something drastically different happens in 2014 we won't be matching any offers for Harry

Tried to get rid of him in trade week

 

[Knightmare]

Excellent Best 22 KM and agree with pretty much all the guys selected.
Noticed you have Reid in the forward line whereas previously you have been calling for him to remain down back. With the loss of Heath Shaw's run and kicking as well as Reid's intercept marking and 60m bullets, this robs us of two of our best and quickest ways to counterattack. Marley's kicking is not the best, Brown always looks to handball, and Toovey and Keefe seem to prefer the short to medium kicks to a target, rather than the long, penetrating kicks into the forward line. Scharenberg seems like a competent kick from the limited highlights I have seen, however yet to see how he performs under the pressure at AFL level. That leaves only Seedsman as someone who can get the ball forward quickly and reasonably accurately. Do you think transition from defence to offence will be an issue?

I think we will see Reid swing between the forward and back lines for much of the year based on match-ups and game day strategies. For the teams with a number of potent tall forwards (Sydney comes to mind) he would probably be required to go back. We could then play a smaller forward line as there is still plenty of marking power with Cloke, White, and Elliott playing above his size, as well as the option of resting a Pendlebury or Swan up forward. Goldsack and Karnezis might be other options as the third mobile tall.

On Reid I'm increasingly after all this time starting to with the way Nathan wants us to play see him best suited as a forward and as a forward for the season.
If we still played the forward press he'd be a backman but without it I don't see the advantage to it.
I agree that his rebound from the back half is big with his kick probably the best on our list when he has it going. I also agree that our footskills as a back half and the ability of that unit to rebound is poor with more a shutdown first back half. The issue for Reid the backman with the gameplan as it is, is that without the use of forward press Reid as a backman is not given sufficient opportunities to be an intercept marking presence and as a result he's a 1v1 only defender making him of no greater usefulness than Keeffe or Brown as a key defender which while he can do capably goes away from what made him by position an All Australian and one of the most influential if not the most influential key defender in the competition. As a forward on the other hand with clubs over-helping on Cloke, Reid won't ever attract the no.1 opposition defender and while I highly doubt he'll continue his dominance of last year as a forward I feel he can still be effective and much more effective than the next best option, help support Cloke and better balance our front half in the way the inclusion of Podsiadly in that forward half helped Hawkins for Geelong as that second option to take pressure off him and better balance the front half.

Scharenberg I feel by roughly mid way through the season assuming healthy can establish himself as a best part of our team and be that secondary if not primary rebounder with a still capable shutdown game. Seedsman can certainly penetrate so he's a good starting point. As a short term solution as we're not starting the season with Scharenberg I'd look to Fasolo as an option on a back flank to help as a second rebounder off that other back flank. Sinclair is the other I'd look at in the short term but he's more someone I'd play on small crumbing forwards rather than as a rebounder with his footskills as with Toovey and Williams similarly limited. None the less with a limited rebounding back half if we go with Sinclair over the short term the back half can still function with all excellent stoppers by position which is better than most can say. Seedsman, Williams and Sinclair are all capable of providing run and carry and Seedsman and Keeffe are relatively good kicks or Fasolo if played back so it's still functional from a rebounding standpoint and sufficient to win with even if it's not a strength.

On Scharenberg the kick. He the the capacity to do damage. He has penetration and some excellent vision to spot some nice targets up the field so he'll be an asset as a rebounder. Occasionally he can have a few poor kicks but mostly very good.

Reid I'd almost half expect to see as a forward first this year with more quality key defence options than key forward options. Additionally with our front half even with very capable marks overhead - Elliott/Fasolo/K.Martin/Swan as examples of non key position players who can win their 1v1s and take a mark up forward we'll regardless of this continue play through Cloke continually regardless of those other options and it makes us too predictable to the opposition and easy to defend and stop so I'm now on the Reid up forward train.

I wouldn't be using Reid up forward if Malthouse was still coaching and using the press. He'd be much more valuable down back then but since we're not I see minimal advantage to leaving him back with the benefit of him playing forward with our setups so key forward focused and key forward friendly really giving him the opportunity to be an effective key forward and of greater value to our team from a win/loss standpoint as a forward.

Unless something drastically different happens in 2014 we won't be matching any offers for Harry

Tried to get rid of him in trade week

That would be a disappointing outcome then and yet another step back in the immediate..

 

[blaze036]

That would be a disappointing outcome then and yet another step back in the immediate..

No one came after him in the 2013 trade period doubt anyone will come after him in 2014.

Getting old now and has a truckload of off-field baggage, also wouldn't come too cheaply.

 

[HappyRed]

Pfffttt, no Seedsman, author has no idea.

Agreed, this authors opinion means crackers..
Paul "Seeds" Seedsman is easily in top 22. He will run of half back, doing a role similar to 2013. Toovey will have H. Shaw's old role imo. I love our depth though, we still have Marley Williams as well.. Who i'm excited for.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Agreed, this authors opinion means crackers..
Paul "Seeds" Seedsman is easily in top 22. He will run of half back, doing a role similar to 2013. Toovey will have H. Shaw's old role imo. I love our depth though, we still have Marley Williams as well.. Who i'm excited for.

Marleys the ****ing man!

 

[blaze036]

Agreed, this authors opinion means crackers..
Paul "Seeds" Seedsman is easily in top 22. He will run of half back, doing a role similar to 2013. Toovey will have H. Shaw's old role imo. I love our depth though, we still have Marley Williams as well.. Who i'm excited for.

I think Seedsmen is overrated amongst our supporters

 

[Knightmare]

No one came after him in the 2013 trade period doubt anyone will come after him in 2014.

Getting old now and has a truckload of off-field baggage, also wouldn't come too cheaply.

A 27 year old turning 28 next year doesn't have to be old. Geelong have proven they can keep their guys going into their 30s and as productive as ever. It's just been a Collingwood problem in recent times where when players his 30 for the most part they're done which has been unfortunate.

Harry is durable enough and a hard enough trainer to play to 32/33 if he wants to.

I think Seedsmen is overrated amongst our supporters

Many don't yet consider him a part of our best 22 and those who I'm speculating likely view him as a 16-22 player.

I consider Seedsman a clear best 15 and close to best 10 player on our list so I'm I'd expect in the minority on my extremely positive evaluation of Seedsman.

In my view Seedsman is the only player on our squad who can both penetrate (both through incredible run and carry but then also a long kick) and beat his direct opponent which is better than most back flankers in the competition can say.
Scharenberg has the capacity to join Seedsman in this company but he's probably the only other on our list who can.

 

[jmac70]

Unless something drastically different happens in 2014 we won't be matching any offers for Harry

Tried to get rid of him in trade week

There would have been plenty of other players also offered by the club during trade week. This is nothing new and is a reality of football. If Harry's pay expectations fall in line with the club's he will re-sign.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If Harry's "space cadet" image scares off other clubs and he stays a Pie until he retires I'll be very pleased. Hes one of the hardest workers at the club and very durable. Most of his mouthing off in his private time has zero to do with his performance or on the clubs performance. Hes a bit different...who isnt these days....its 2014.

 

[blaze036]

A 27 year old turning 28 next year doesn't have to be old. Geelong have proven they can keep their guys going into their 30s and as productive as ever. It's just been a Collingwood problem in recent times where when players his 30 for the most part they're done which has been unfortunate.

Harry is durable enough and a hard enough trainer to play to 32/33 if he wants to.



Many don't yet consider him a part of our best 22 and those who I'm speculating likely view him as a 16-22 player.

I consider Seedsman a clear best 15 and close to best 10 player on our list so I'm I'd expect in the minority on my extremely positive evaluation of Seedsman.

In my view Seedsman is the only player on our squad who can both penetrate (both through incredible run and carry but then also a long kick) and beat his direct opponent which is better than most back flankers in the competition can say.
Scharenberg has the capacity to join Seedsman in this company but he's probably the only other on our list who can.

Seedsmen can do those long flashy runs and then the big kick, however he regularly turned it over in 2013 and his defensive part of his game is bottom 5 on our list. Never stays on his opponent and struggles to defend 1 on 1. People see a big run and an exciting goal every 4 games and overrate him because of this, most of his offensive work is very hit and miss.

I think his position in the team is in serious trouble if young gets back and scharenberg starts to fire in the VFL. Young and Harry are very similar to him just better

 

[Scodog10]

A 27 year old turning 28 next year doesn't have to be old. Geelong have proven they can keep their guys going into their 30s and as productive as ever. It's just been a Collingwood problem in recent times where when players his 30 for the most part they're done which has been unfortunate.

Harry is durable enough and a hard enough trainer to play to 32/33 if he wants to.



Many don't yet consider him a part of our best 22 and those who I'm speculating likely view him as a 16-22 player.

I consider Seedsman a clear best 15 and close to best 10 player on our list so I'm I'd expect in the minority on my extremely positive evaluation of Seedsman.

In my view Seedsman is the only player on our squad who can both penetrate (both through incredible run and carry but then also a long kick) and beat his direct opponent which is better than most back flankers in the competition can say. Scharenberg has the capacity to join Seedsman in this company but he's probably the only other on our list who can.

Which stopping jobs in 2013 enabled you to form this opinion? I like what Seedsman brings to the table, however of all our regular defenders in 2013 he is the one I would have immediately taken to the goalsquare if given the match up.

He isn't what I'd consider a marking threat (of his 100 in 2013 only 11 were contested), he runs at just over 4.5 contested possessions per game so he loves to get into space and it nullifies his main strength in rebounding. Given the option of Toovey in 2014 that would somewhat counteract that goalsquare threat, but I still have my doubts especially if pitted against a top 4 opponent who are all choc full of offensive weapons.

Don't get me wrong the improvement is definitely there (there's no way I'd have considered him a legitimate defensive option after 2012), but I just don't see it to your level of confidence.

 

[piedpiper32]

On Reid I'm increasingly after all this time starting to with the way Nathan wants us to play see him best suited as a forward and as a forward for the season.
If we still played the forward press he'd be a backman but without it I don't see the advantage to it.
I agree that his rebound from the back half is big with his kick probably the best on our list when he has it going. I also agree that our footskills as a back half and the ability of that unit to rebound is poor with more a shutdown first back half. The issue for Reid the backman with the gameplan as it is, is that without the use of forward press Reid as a backman is not given sufficient opportunities to be an intercept marking presence and as a result he's a 1v1 only defender making him of no greater usefulness than Keeffe or Brown as a key defender which while he can do capably goes away from what made him by position an All Australian and one of the most influential if not the most influential key defender in the competition. As a forward on the other hand with clubs over-helping on Cloke, Reid won't ever attract the no.1 opposition defender and while I highly doubt he'll continue his dominance of last year as a forward I feel he can still be effective and much more effective than the next best option, help support Cloke and better balance our front half in the way the inclusion of Podsiadly in that forward half helped Hawkins for Geelong as that second option to take pressure off him and better balance the front half.

Scharenberg I feel by roughly mid way through the season assuming healthy can establish himself as a best part of our team and be that secondary if not primary rebounder with a still capable shutdown game. Seedsman can certainly penetrate so he's a good starting point. As a short term solution as we're not starting the season with Scharenberg I'd look to Fasolo as an option on a back flank to help as a second rebounder off that other back flank. Sinclair is the other I'd look at in the short term but he's more someone I'd play on small crumbing forwards rather than as a rebounder with his footskills as with Toovey and Williams similarly limited. None the less with a limited rebounding back half if we go with Sinclair over the short term the back half can still function with all excellent stoppers by position which is better than most can say. Seedsman, Williams and Sinclair are all capable of providing run and carry and Seedsman and Keeffe are relatively good kicks or Fasolo if played back so it's still functional from a rebounding standpoint and sufficient to win with even if it's not a strength.

On Scharenberg the kick. He the the capacity to do damage. He has penetration and some excellent vision to spot some nice targets up the field so he'll be an asset as a rebounder. Occasionally he can have a few poor kicks but mostly very good.

Reid I'd almost half expect to see as a forward first this year with more quality key defence options than key forward options. Additionally with our front half even with very capable marks overhead - Elliott/Fasolo/K.Martin/Swan as examples of non key position players who can win their 1v1s and take a mark up forward we'll regardless of this continue play through Cloke continually regardless of those other options and it makes us too predictable to the opposition and easy to defend and stop so I'm now on the Reid up forward train.

I wouldn't be using Reid up forward if Malthouse was still coaching and using the press. He'd be much more valuable down back then but since we're not I see minimal advantage to leaving him back with the benefit of him playing forward with our setups so key forward focused and key forward friendly really giving him the opportunity to be an effective key forward and of greater value to our team from a win/loss standpoint as a forward.

Fair call on Reid given the change in our style of play and personnel over recent years. If anything it will be exciting to see him team up with Cloke and White and give the opposition a real headache.

Regarding Scharenberg once again I am happy we went for him rather than Aish. We really needed another classy, rebounding back. You mention Sinclair as an option earlier in the season, however I have my doubts. With Scharenberg recovering I would prefer to have Macaffer in the side over Sinclair as this would give us a tagging option, something which worked well for us last season. Sinclair has pace and will give you 100%, but his disposal is very ordinary, consistently missing targets or turning it over.

Fasolo might be an option although guys with a real nose for goal are hard to find or replace so keep him forward. I wouldn't mind seeing O'Brien slotted in defence at times as long as it was as an attacking half-back. Everyone knows he has his limitations against the agile, small forwards, however when allowed to roam a bit and take the game on he has the ability to hurt the opposition. With him and Seedsman it will give us a good counterattack. He did have a good season on the wing last year, but I think the reason he got into trouble in earlier seasons was when we tried to put him on guys like Cyril Rioli and those types where he lacks the agility and ability to change directions on a dime. Play him up at half-back and not on one of those types and he can be a great source of intercept marking, spoiling, and quick rebound. Marley and Toovey could be relied on to stop the smaller forwards.

 

[Knightmare]

Without having stats on Seedsman in 1v1s going off what I've seen I haven't noticed him get outbodied in 1v1 contests during the year whereas you'd see as one example Maxwell time after time continue to get nudged out of the contest and beaten in almost all 1v1s.

Seedsman isn't a muscly build but he's hasn't looked exposed in the contest to this point at senior level. I'd struggle to name anyone who has taken advantage of him in the contest to this point and I wouldn't be afraid if he was isolated deep assuming he's not against a key forward, though with the rebound he provides you'd still look to play him higher 90% of the time anyway.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Seedsmen can do those long flashy runs and then the big kick, however he regularly turned it over in 2013 and his defensive part of his game is bottom 5 on our list.

I heard the same about Ben Johnson and Alan Toovey early in their careers too. Cant kick, wont make it, trade bait, lalala.

Theres no guarantees in footy but Seedsmans run and carry is a valuable asset in modern footy. The defensive waeknesses you mention are common amongst younger players. It takes time. (Edit...not that I neccessarily agree with you that he is weak defensively...havent noticed it myself).

 

[Hinequarters]

Some player are done and dusted before 30 and some go much longer.. I seriously doubt Geelong had a management program that would extend players careers by years.. that kind of thing is more genetic than environmental..


but hey what do I know