Corona virus, Port and the AFL.

[StrappingTape]

"What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic."

It goes on:


There are similar concerns about the nearby Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab, which operates at biosecurity level 2, a level significantly less secure than the level-4 standard claimed by the Wuhan Insititute of Virology lab, Xiao said. That’s important because the Chinese government still refuses to answer basic questions about the origin of the novel coronavirus while suppressing any attempts to examine whether either lab was involved.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

I don't know why you guys are treating this like a crazy conspiracy theory. You'd almost have to have a weird bias to not consider the possibility.

Yeah the whole story gaining legs now on American media this morning. It appears someone somewhere has started dropping verifiable info to journo's about how it accidently got out in an accident.

 

[raptalia]

So the story is COVID-19 was created in a lab in China and the Chinese then injected it into the citizens of Wushan ?

Why would they do that?

Maybe the next part of the conspiracy is that the Chinese also have a vaccine which they are deliberately withholding until the US allows Huawei to build the US 5G network. Yes, there we have it the old 5G connection.

At the risk of taking conspiracy too far Fox are about the only network that are pro Trump in the US and as we all know Trump blames the Chinese for this whole mess so it is possible that Trump leaked information to Fox to help discredit the Chinese.

Relax, it is only conjecture.

 

[StrappingTape]

So the story is COVID-19 was created in a lab in China and the Chinese then injected it into the citizens of Wushan ?

Why would they do that?

Maybe the next part of the conspiracy is that the Chinese also have a vaccine which they are deliberately withholding until the US allows Huawei to build the US 5G network. Yes, there we have it the old 5G connection.

At the risk of taking conspiracy too far Fox are about the only network that are pro Trump in the US and as we all know Trump blames the Chinese for this whole mess so it is possible that Trump leaked information to Fox to help discredit the Chinese.

Relax, it is only conjecture.

No the story is that the Chinese were racing away int he lab to beat the US and to show they are on an equal footing with Coronavirus research/cures etc. Then ****ed up and it accidentally got out, tried to fix it, failed and here we are.

 

[Magus]

Don't those Level 4 international bioresearch labs have people wearing hazmat suits full time? That's what I see every time I have seen the CSIRO Lab in Geelong for the last 30 years, that changed its name because people used to pronounce the old acronym as Anal

Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness (ACDP), formerly known as the Australian Animal Health Laboratory (AAHL), in Geelong, Victoria, Australia is a high security laboratory, run by the CSIRO for exotic animal disease diagnosis and research. The lab is one of four Biosafety Level-4 labs in the country."

That's why I said something just isn't right in the way the reporting of the story. Not that it is dodgy but that the full facts haven't been explained as there was holes that didn't make it logical.

Ok found the video of CSIRO in Geelong- I thought this is how all these level 4 labs around the world are set up.

Pure speculation of course, but that Washington Post article I posted did say this:

“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)

 

[Magus]

So the story is COVID-19 was created in a lab in China and the Chinese then injected it into the citizens of Wushan ?

NO-ONE has said that at all.

 

[Forzaport]

Ok so the Lab has live bats in it. I understand that bit now.

How then do they expect to do tests on it? The Washington Post article says - Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats.

So how do they do tests?? Is it by taking blood? Do they want bats to bite humans and then test humans?? Or is the risky bit having live bats in a so called secure site as opposed to dead bats to draw blood from?

Risky could mean so many different things - the most obvious is poor physical containment. A PC2 lab is basically controlled via negative air pressure to keep air escaping into the outside environment and the protective clothing is literally a lab gown, eye protection, gloves and covered shoes - work is mainly done in a biohazard hood that creates an air curtain between you and your biological samples. PC4 is the full body space suit stuff, air locks, etc all the shit you see in the movies - for example, research on Hendra & Ebola viruses is done in PC4 facilities (not sure about coronaviruses).

I honestly don't know if they do have live bats - it's just a potential source of virus from a lab.

They could be doing a lot of different things - I'm not sure what their ethics panels are like but I doubt they would allow human studies that intentionally infect people. Experiments could be something like extracting different strains of virus from bats and infecting a mouse or rat model (maybe larger animal like a Pangolin) then trying different pharma treatments. Maybe they were just looking to catalogue different strains or develop a vaccine. If they were taking blood from live bats then they should have some form of anesthetic like isoflurane to put them to sleep.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Is there any actual evidence at all that it came from a lab or that patient zero got it at the lab?
Any evidence of a virus cluster early on at the lab?
Any evidence at all?
Other than the fact there is a lab there?

Just the story in the Washington Post of US officials who visited the labs a few times over the last 2 years and were concerned about the safety of the lab and " sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge."

 

[raptalia]

NO-ONE has said that at all.

Relax, I was only speculating as are some sections of the US media. This is not a new story it was widely circulated on social media in February. Looks like some one has decided to invent a bit of credibility to it.

 

[raptalia]

No the story is that the Chinese were racing away int he lab to beat the US and to show they are on an equal footing with Coronavirus research/cures etc. Then f’ed up and it accidentally got out, tried to fix it, failed and here we are.

That might be the story but is it the truth of the matter?

 

[Magus]

Relax, I was only speculating as are some sections of the US media. This is not a new story it was widely circulated on social media in February. Looks like some one has decided to invent a bit of credibility to it.

Invent credibility, okay.

 

[bomberclifford]

I don't know why you guys are treating this like a crazy conspiracy theory. You'd almost have to have a weird bias to not consider the possibility.

I've certainly not said it's not possible. Only that the evidence of this being the case is not there.

This whole thread of the conversation started because I posted an article that seemed to contradict the Fox News report of 'sources' claiming it came from a lab. The people quoted in that Guardian article were quite clear that the evidence as it stands, doesn't support this.

They may find evidence in the future that proves that it came from the lab, in which case I'd change my stance.

At the moment though the lab theory has become a breeding ground for the conspiracy nuts to run wild.
For the record, I don't include you and Forza in that category.

 

[bomberclifford]

Is there any actual evidence at all that it came from a lab or that patient zero got it at the lab?
Any evidence of a virus cluster early on at the lab?
Any evidence at all?
Other than the fact there is a lab there?

If there was, this thread would be three pages shorter.

 

[Magus]

I've certainly not said it's not possible. Only that the evidence of this being the case is not there.

This whole thread of the conversation started because I posted an article that seemed to contradict the Fox News report of 'sources' claiming it came from a lab. The people quoted in that Guardian article were quite clear that the evidence as it stands, doesn't support this.

They may find evidence in the future that proves that it came from the lab, in which case I'd change my stance.

At the moment though the lab theory has become a breeding ground for the conspiracy nuts to run wild.
For the record, I don't include you and Forza in that category.

All good.

For the record, I think it may well have come from the wet market and that they should probably be shut down. Not only because of this disaster but because the of the horrible treatment of animals.

I just thought the laboratory theory seemed to pretty coincidental. I'm not attached to the idea though.

Maybe it'll grow legs in the coming weeks, maybe it won't.

 

[VineValerian]

Just catching up with this thread. Makes me think that letting the virus run its course and kill half the population isn't such a bad idea. The problem is which half though...

The half I don't like.

 

[Powerage]

Here's a thought experiment. China had a previous coronavirus outbreak with SARS yet didn't see fit to cover it up or send false data to the WHO and world governments but they did with COVID-19.

Now what is the more likely reason for that cover-up - patient zero contracting the virus from a wet market or patient zero contracting the virus from working at a research lab studying coronaviruses that has poor physical containment protocols and insufficiently trained staff?

How do you know SARS was not covered up, or that false data was not sent to the WHO? China covers shit up almost out of habit. The US sprouts 'conspiracy theories' more than any other country on earth. Its hard not to when your own government lies to you about bizarre things as a matter of course. I'm not saying these theories are not true. Sometimes they are.

My own belief is that like any war the first casualty of a pandemic is truth. Only when it is all over and objective data is studied by objective men will some version of the truth hopefully come out. But there are no guarantees even of this. History is written by the winners.

I'm not sure the source of the virus even matters. There are plenty of natural viruses that are plenty harmful. With the release of CRISPR–Cas9 kits DNA can be altered by someone reasonably completent in a backyard lab.

What matters is accepting that this is going to happen again regardless of the source, and being adequately prepared for it once an outbreak fades from peoples memories.

Just as plausable as a thought experiment is who stands to gain the most from this pandemic? Big pharma. So why not entertain the idea they are behind it. Whoever comes up with a vaccine or an effective treatment stands to make a fortune. Follow the money trail. I can't see why that is not a plausible theory.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

All good.

For the record, I think it may well have come from the wet market and that they should probably be shut down. Not only because of this disaster but because the of the horrible treatment of animals.

I just thought the laboratory theory seemed to pretty coincidental. I'm not attached to the idea though.

Maybe it'll grow legs in the coming weeks, maybe it won't.

Wet Market isn't the problem. It's the name they give to the equivalent of our Central Market in Adelaide, Haymarket in Sydney etc.

At a Wet market they sell fruit and veg, cheeses, other perishable goods as well as meat just like the central market.

The component of the Wet market that has to be closed down is the caging of live animals and killing them there on the spot and unhygenic processing of these animals.

Edit wiki page on Wet Market explains it.

Wet market - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Background
Terminology
The term "wet market" came into common use in Singapore in the early 1970s when the government used it to distinguish such traditional markets from the supermarkets that had become popular there.[19] The term was added to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) in 2016, as a term used throughout Southeast Asia.[20] The OED's earliest cited use of the term is from The Straits Times of Singapore in 1978.[5]

The "wet" in "wet market" refers to the constantly[21] wet floors due to the melting of ice used to keep food from spoiling,[19][22] the washing of meat and seafood stalls and the spraying of fresh produce.

 

[raptalia]

Invent credibility, okay.

Yep, happens all the time. You just have to make it worth while.

 

[raptalia]

What is more important where it started or how it finishes?

 

[VineValerian]

Sam Newman losing it cause he can't play golf

He should be banned from a golf course for life due to abominable dress sense.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I heard it was infected Iranians who spread the disease in New York. Seriously that's another tinfoil hat rumour out there.

 

[Magus]

I'm not sure the source of the virus even matters. There are plenty of natural viruses that are plenty harmful. With the release of CRISPR–Cas9 kits DNA can be altered by someone reasonably completent in a backyard lab.

What matters is accepting that this is going to happen again regardless of the source, and being adequately prepared for it once an outbreak fades from peoples memories.

Of course it matters where it came from so you can stop it from happening again.
This either occurred from unhygenic and/or completely unsafe practices, not because nature just threw a curve-ball.

 

[bomberclifford]

Very tempted to change my name to "The Pangolian".

Lol. Just realised my error.

I'll leave it as is for posterity.

 

[StrappingTape]

That might be the story but is it the truth of the matter?

The Washington Post story sources have now been corroborated by some dude on Fox News who are now reporting it to. So multiple news agencies are now getting info which sounds insider/on the ground level of what actually happened in China. Much how we are now finding out that the Chinese had a top level health discussion about it but didn't act when it first happened, info is starting to get out of China and the US press has got a sniff.

 

[StrappingTape]

What is more important where it started or how it finishes?

Both, do you want to be doing this again and again? If we don't fix how it happened then we'll be here again in no time.

 

[raptalia]

Wet Market isn't the problem. It's the name they give to the equivalent of our Central Market in Adelaide, Haymarket in Sydney etc.

At a Wet market they sell fruit and veg, cheeses, other perishable goods as well as meat just like the central market.

The component of the Wet market that has to be closed down is the caging of live animals and killing them there on the spot and unhygenic processing of these animals.

Wet markets get their name from the floors that are always wet from the melted ice used to keep the seafood cold. I went to one when I was in China thirty years ago and they sell all sorts there snakes, scorpions, cockroaches you name it.

I thought the Chinese had applied some restrictions on selling native wildlife. The wet markets are OK if they stick to recognised meat, fruit, vegetables and seafood but it is the selling of 'exotics' that has to be crushed.

The article below is interesting as bats are sold across Asia and a corona virus could come from any one of thousands of such markets across Asia.

China just banned the trade and consumption of wild animals. Experts think the coronavirus jumped from live animals to people at a market.

Experts think the coronavirus jumped from animals to people in a market in Wuhan, China. Officials have now banned the wildlife trade nationwide.

www.businessinsider.com.au