Cotchin & Martin v Murphy & Gibbs

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Very interesting conversation with a friend today. Which pair would you choose to have in your side going forward, Cotchin & Martin or Murphy & Gibbs?

Obviously Murphy is the best performed player out of the four so far by some way, and Gibbs is improving. However, both Martin & Cotchin will more than likely improve at rapid rates.

I am leaning towards the Carlton pair by a very small margin. Thoughts?

 

[anti_]

personally i don't really rate gibbs as someone who is absolutely integral to a footy side.

he's a great player, don't get me wrong, but i feel he's much more expendable to a 22 than some may think. he does compliment them nicely though.

i think cotchin and martin have game-breaking ability. both can break tackles/win clearances/kick goals (martin more so with the goals).

i'd take the richmond 2, even though the carlton 2 have produced more thus far.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

personally i don't really rate gibbs as someone who is absolutely integral to a footy side.

he's a great player, don't get me wrong, but i feel he's much more expendable to a 22 than some may think. he does compliment them nicely though.

i think cotchin and martin have game-breaking ability. both can break tackles/win clearances/kick goals (martin more so with the goals).

i'd take the richmond 2, even though the carlton 2 have produced more thus far.

I really rate Gibbs despite not having set the world on fire quite yet. He is versatile, can go forward, back or play in the middle. He is also a weapon in the modern game, because of his ability to hit up a target. That's a vital skill to have to combat the press and zones.

Gibbs reminds me of Shaun Burgoyne in a lot of ways.

 

[slimdusty4]

carlton two have produced more...

having said that, they are older (combined).
murphy is ranked 1 then cotchin the gibbs, over martin...
but i think the tigers duo are bridging the gap, and within 18-24 months, i think we will be talknig about cotchin and martin as two of the very best not just richmonds best.

so for right now the blue duo is winning it in a points decision, but in the years to come, i think its gonig to be a knockout blow, the tigers way

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Gibbs has more versatility than the other 3. He can be a midfielder but he can also play defence and forward and he can play on talls or smalls in an offensive or negating capacity.

We really missed him in the semi. His ability to read and set up play is fantastic and his skills are sublime.

 

[Jesus Baulks]

Bird in the hand for me. Murphy and Gibbs are proven upper echleon players, Martin and Cotchin will probably both end up reaching that level but they may not.

Cotchin's injury woes are probably what tips me in favour of the blue pair. If he gets a good run with injury though I think he'll be the best of the four.

 

[slimdusty4]

Gibbs has more versatility than the other 3. He can be a midfielder but he can also play defence and forward and he can play on talls or smalls in an offensive or negating capacity.

We really missed him in the semi. His ability to read and set up play is fantastic and his skills are sublime.

martin can play crumber, one out forward, ruck rover, centre, or even as a wing. versatile, to no end, but not as polished yet.

as for injuries, cotchin had interupted pre seasons, until now. his first full pre season at richmond, and delivered a BnF. great effort, i think the injuries are behind him

 

[vWestCoast]

It's taken Murphy and Gibbs this long to get to their level. Wait untill Cotchin and Martin are the same age or have played the same amount of games.

 

[slimdusty4]

Bird in the hand for me. Murphy and Gibbs are proven upper echleon players, Martin and Cotchin will probably both end up reaching that level but they may not.

Cotchin's injury woes are probably what tips me in favour of the blue pair. If he gets a good run with injury though I think he'll be the best of the four.

hang on... jesus baulks, you told me i was crazy if i thought that cotchin would get 15 votes, and mnartin would get 12.

i even bumped the thread, im still awaiting your apology/admission.

 

[Fasta_123]

cotchin and martin. just dont rate gibbs

 

[Rocky_Star_Pro]

Murphy and Gibbs are better now, I just feel that Cotchin and Martin will surpass them when they reach the same level of experience/age that the Carlton pair are at now

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I really rate Gibbs despite not having set the world on fire quite yet. He is versatile, can go forward, back or play in the middle. He is also a weapon in the modern game, because of his ability to hit up a target. That's a vital skill to have to combat the press and zones.

Gibbs reminds me of Shaun Burgoyne in a lot of ways.

Gibbs has averaged 21.8 possessions over his career thus far including his average first season at a disposal efficiency rate of about 78%, polled top 10 in the Brownlow once, 17 games over 30 possessions (highest being 45), several high profile scalps to his name playing on taller opponents. I'd say he has set the world on fire in several microbursts if you like.

In his last 3 seasons (69 games) he has picked up less than 20 possessions on 9 occasions, most of those being high teens, none in single figures.

Gibbs is as reliable as they come and his attributes kind of sneak up on you as he is not a flashy type at all.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

martin can play crumber, one out forward, ruck rover, centre, or even as a wing. versatile, to no end, but not as polished yet.

as for injuries, cotchin had interupted pre seasons, until now. his first full pre season at richmond, and delivered a BnF. great effort, i think the injuries are behind him

I haven't disputed any of Martin's or Cotchin's attributes. I think Gibbs suffers being compared as a pure midfielder. Regardless of where the others can play, Gibbs is more versatile simply based on the fact he can play on talls as well, and make a pretty good fist of it.

 

[La Dispute]

I'd rate them:

1. Murphy
2. Cotchin
3. Martin
4. Gibbs

Probably the Richmond pair in terms of midfielders, but in terms of how the fit into a team, Murphy and Gibbs compliment ours well.

 

[telsor]

For now, the more experienced and developed players must be prefered, and the Carlton duo would be approaching the peak of their powers.

As a same age comparison, I dare say the Richmond duo 'win'.

So the question is if the latter will develop at a similar rate, as well as unpredictable issues like injury.

I think the decision comes down to if you're willing to take the risk that better at same age will continue to mean they'll remain better, and also where a club is in regard to their premiership window.


I'd take Cotchin and Martin, but I'm biased

 

[Jimthegreat]

Bias or not, as it stands right now, which I assume it the poll is about, surely Murphy and Gibbs. Richmond supporters voting?

Having said the the Richmond pair are younger and less experienced so that "gap" will close.

 

[telsor]

I haven't disputed any of Martin's or Cotchin's attributes. I think Gibbs suffers being compared as a pure midfielder. Regardless of where the others can play, Gibbs is more versatile simply based on the fact he can play on talls as well, and make a pretty good fist of it.

Agree, Gibbs is actually more like Deledio in this regard.

Very good whereever you want to play him, but doesn't 'own' a position the same way a 'pure' midfielder does, so tends to get underrated/underappreciated ... Although the coaches would probably prefer these 2 to the other 3.

 

[Flinch]

Short Term- Murphy & Gibbs

Long Term- Cotchin & Martin

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Is it fair to say that Murphy's fourth season was comfortably better than any other single season produced by the other three?

And similarly that Murphy's sixth (current) season was well ahead of his fourth?

 

[Sometimes]

Bias or not, as it stands right now, which I assume it the poll is about, surely Murphy and Gibbs. Richmond supporters voting?

Having said the the Richmond pair are younger and less experienced so that "gap" will close.

This is Bigfooty. Proven performances mean nothing compared to how much potential players are perceived to have.

Therefore, Cotchin and Martin> Murphy and Gibbs.

Gives all teams hope.

 

[Blues_Man]

This is Bigfooty. Proven performances mean nothing compared to how much potential players are perceived to have.

Therefore, Cotchin and Martin> Murphy and Gibbs.

Gives all teams hope.

Yup pretty much it ..the other two are younger ..not as good yet ..but show promise ..so they all pick them .

Then factor in the Carlton hatred and the number increases .

I am delighted with Murphy and Gibbs as i'm sure the tigers supporters are with their two .

 

[Blue since 72]

personally i don't really rate gibbs as someone who is absolutely integral to a footy side.

he's a great player, don't get me wrong, but i feel he's much more expendable to a 22 than some may think. he does compliment them nicely though.

i think cotchin and martin have game-breaking ability. both can break tackles/win clearances/kick goals (martin more so with the goals).

i'd take the richmond 2, even though the carlton 2 have produced more thus far.

Dunno, reckon he would have been pretty useful for us against you guys the other week.

Is a year behind Murph and I would be expecting a noticeable step up next season (with injury caveat in place).

 

[qldbluesman_43]

Like an above poster pointed out, a more appropriate comparison is probably Gibbs + Murphy vs Deledio + Cotchin. Martin is probably most comparable to Judd.

I picked can't split them because in reality all 4 players (plus Deledio and Judd if you wanted to add them in) are all absolute guns who would be top 10 no matter what club they played at.

 

[slimdusty4]

Have you not been on the main board much?
Look at the "Richmond fined for salary cap administration breach"...

Tell me we aren't 'hated'.
I think short term your boys, long term our boys.
That's the way the voting has been reflected.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

As a same age comparison, I dare say the Richmond duo 'win'.

So the question is if the latter will develop at a similar rate, as well as unpredictable issues like injury.

I think the decision comes down to if you're willing to take the risk that better at same age will continue to mean they'll remain better, and also where a club is in regard to their premiership window.

Some questions over whether the Richmond duo were better at the same age, particularly Cotchin.

I've opted to break down disposals, disposal efficiency and contested possessions since they affect disposal efficiency. Harder to go further given a player like Gibbs has spent a lot of time in defence and doing defensive roles so clearances and goals for example, don't really work. Feel free to add more stats though.

1st Season- Average per game

Murphy - 18.0 disposals, 6.5 contested, 71% efficiency
Gibbs - 13.0 disposals, 4 contested, 84% efficiency
Cotchin - 16.4 disposals, 6.4 contested, 64% efficiency
Martin - 20.2 disposals, 8.8 contested, 71% efficiency

Season 1 - have to give it to Martin here, more disposals, more contested, reasonable efficiency. Murphy a clear second, Cotchin nominally third although that efficiency percentage makes him and Gibbs very close. Other stats will probably separate them so happy to give it to Cotchin.

2nd Season- Average per game

Murphy - 17.9 disposals, 6.6 contested, 71% efficiency
Gibbs - 20.7 disposals, 6.9 contested, 78% efficiency
Cotchin - 17.7 disposals, 6.1 contested, 62% efficiency
Martin - 22.1 disposals, 9.3 contested, 71% efficiency

Again have to give it to Martin. Gibbs a clear second, Murphy 3rd and Cotchin 4th.

3rd Season- Average per game

Murphy - 24.6 disposals, 8.6 contested, 70% efficiency
Gibbs - 26.7 disposals, 8.3 contested, 76% efficiency
Cotchin - 19.5 disposals, 10.5 contested, 67% efficiency

So between the 3 that have played 3 years, Gibbs wins year 3, Murphy second and Cotchin third, although I note that Cotchin became more of a contested player and still improved his efficiency percentage.

4th Season- Average per game

Murphy - 25.6 disposals, 9.3 contested, 75% efficiency
Gibbs - 24.3 disposals, 7.4 contested, 77% efficiency
Cotchin - 24.1 disposals, 11.9 contested, 70% efficiency

The 4th season is where we need other stats to separate them. Extremely close. Cotchin perhaps shading Gibbs and neck and neck with Murphy.

Other seasons

5th Season- Average per game

Murphy - 25.5 disposals, 10.8 contested, 75% efficiency
Gibbs - 23.8 disposals, 7.5 contested, 74% efficiency

Fairly similar 5th seasons to their 4th seasons. Murphy clearly ahead of Gibbs on pure stats though. Have to remember those defensive roles from Gibbs however.

6th Season- Average per game

Murphy - 29.1 disposals, 12.8 contested, 74% efficiency

Cotchin needs to get here within 2 years. It's a big ask.

Having said all of this Martin and Cotchin aren't competing for their stats with a Chris Judd type. That surely makes a hell of a difference.

Based on season comparison at same age, Martin is in front. Murphy second. Gibbs third and Cotchin fourth.

The Tiger duo have to maintain that and do better to be ahead of Murphy especially, and that is still the unknown.