Could it be the draft order is wrong (back to front) ?

[IanW]

I wonder if he would have thought the same thing when the Hawks were near the bottom?

I'm guessing not

Oh, its worse than that.

Hawthorn spent, what 30 years of being useless, and having players not want to go to them because they got thrashed year after year after year.

Because of this, if you were any good, you didnt want to play for Hawthorn, so the club continued to be crap.

The draft, the salary cap and free agency are all designed to avoid this.

But expecting the OP to know the history of his own club appears to be a bit much.

 

[Pessimistic]

Oh, its worse than that.

Hawthorn spent, what 30 years of being useless, and having players not want to go to them because they got thrashed year after year after year.

Because of this, if you were any good, you didnt want to play for Hawthorn, so the club continued to be crap.

The draft, the salary cap and free agency are all designed to avoid this.

But expecting the OP to know the history of his own club appears to be a bit much.

Thts better than knowing just a bit like you do - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Hawks first premiership = 1961
salary cap = 1990s ???
draft = 1980s ???

I believe zoning was what you were talking about, but even that didn't pre-date 1961

Anyway, I wasn't talking about hawthorn, the most sure fire way to attract all the trolls to ruin a thread

 

[IanW]

Thts better than knowing just a bit like you do - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Hawks first premiership = 1961
salary cap = 1990s ???
draft = 1980s ???

I believe zoning was what you were talking about, but even that didn't pre-date 1961

Anyway, I wasn't talking about hawthorn, the most sure fire way to attract all the trolls to ruin a thread

Pesimistic,

Zoning's not what Im talking about. What Im talking about is clubs being stuck in long-term vicious cycles, where a lack of success leads to the conditions that prevent success.

You might want to have a look at how Hawthorn went before 1961 - for example, tell me how often they beat Collingwood between, say, 1935 and 1955.

 

[Pessimistic]

You were accusing me of not knowing history despite having errors yourself.

I could be just as petty and talk about GWS but that would be off topic too

 

[IanW]

You were accusing me of not knowing history despite having errors yourself.

I could be just as petty and talk about GWS but that would be off topic too

Pessimistic,

Go for it. Point out my errors. But the point will still remain that your suggestion will make it easier for successful clubs to keep being more successful, leaving fans of less successful clubs less and less likely to care enough to turn up.

Case in point - Canberra Raiders, who are averaging about the same crowds in Canberra as GWS are ... and they also keep losing their good young players, because without a draft, disequal funding and all the rest of the socialist AFL's equalisation policies, as a good young player you arent going to see success there ... and this then becomes self-fufilling.

If the AFL was ever stupid enough to adopt your proposal - and, yes, it *is* one of the worst ideas ever proposed on BigFooty - the same thing would happen in the AFL.

 

[IanW]

Thts better than knowing just a bit like you do - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Hawks first premiership = 1961
salary cap = 1990s ???
draft = 1980s ???

I believe zoning was what you were talking about, but even that didn't pre-date 1961

Anyway, I wasn't talking about hawthorn, the most sure fire way to attract all the trolls to ruin a thread

Hawthorn joined the VFL in 1926.

A classic "cycle of failure" club for their first thirty years, they had no good players because they had no money, and they had no money because they had no crowds, and they had no crowds because they had no on field success, and they had no on field success because they had no good players.

In their first seventeen years, Hawthorn never won more than seven games a year.

Between 1945 and 1953 they finished last or second last every time but one.

In 1957, Hawthorn played finals for the first time.

Thirty. Years. Of. Failure.

The reason this is relevant is the current draft system is set up to avoid this happeneing - if a club has a bad run for a number of years, it will get enough talent in the draft to hopefully build a team around.

If the AFL is stupid enough to adopt your proposal, then the fact the clubs at the *top* get the first picks will ensure any club at the bottom stays there ... and its fans annd corporate support will inevitably move to other sports or more successful clubs.

 

[Pessimistic]

At least you bothered to post an alternate viewpoint.

Personally I don't think the whole thing can be resolved without some trading system based on actual currency, contrived or otherwise. But that's another discussion.

One problem with the current system ? Jessie white is being shunted off (to Adelaide, so that Sydney can get a player they don't really need according to the 'pure reverse ladder draft order system'

Probably the last thing White wanted

 

[Pessimistic]

My other point is a few clubs have had the best talent for a few years now and basically burned that talent.

lets hope GC and GWS can be different, because if they follow the example made by Richmond, carlton, port and Melbourne, to name the worst, the AFL could lose a whole generation of talent

 

[Damo80]

My other point is a few clubs have had the best talent for a few years now and basically burned that talent.

lets hope GC and GWS can be different, because if they follow the example made by Richmond, carlton, port and Melbourne, to name the worst, the AFL could lose a whole generation of talent

I think with the level of resourcing that most AFL clubs now devote to talent identification, recruiting, development coaches etc, this should be getting better (both identifying the best talent, and then developing it), so I think that your statement re: losing a generation of talent is OTT. That said, I can only speak with a level of knowledge re: Richmond, who in the past few years have directed a LOT more resources into these areas, and it seems either our recruiting has improved, or our development of the talent we do bring in is better.

This brings me to another point - you fail to acknowledge that the kid taken at pick is no guarantee to be the most talented in the first instance. The lower teams have the earliest picks, increasing their likelihood of getting the best talent from the draft, but this relies on those club's recruiting departments doing their job well. As a Richmond supporter, I know all too well that this is not guaranteed!

 

[Wargreymon90]

On further consideration - the worst players are punished by having to go to Port Adelaide and Melbourne, and the best are rewarded with training and support from the best club systems. Its just like the top uni graduates getting placements with the best companies, not working at IGA or Visy

This is the thinking that will single handedly ruin the afl

 

[footscore]

lets face it, 28,070 posts since 2000

I didn't realize internet existed in 2000 let alone BigFooty but you'd have to be one of the 1st?
Must have been only like 10-15 of you going from thread to thread at that time.

 

[Pessimistic]

believe it or not I used to post more on Hawk Headquarters in the early years until it was attacked by (among others) the AFL itself.

And people wonder why Hawk Fans are Paranoid ?

Off topic but one of the best days was draft day when Hawthorn drafted Roughy, Buddy and Lewis.

Lots of heated argument and many people, if not the majority, were deeply critical of the club. Bucknara fluffing reading out Buddys name and number added to the conspiracy theories

 

[Pessimistic]

On topic, Just trying to throw all the words up there and see how they land.

I don't think a reversed draft order is as wild as it first sounds. If you took that as the basis you could combine other draft and trading rules to construct a fairly good system with no more flaws than the current one

 

[Jonts]

My IQ has shrunk from reading this thread

 

[CallumBartlett]

lets face it the current reverse order means the best players go to the worst clubs, where they receive the worst development effort. often fading into obscurity.

If the salary cap is kept and strengthened, and there is unlimited free agency - why not make the premiers take the first pick and the spooners the last. No trading for picks allowed as this dilutes the whole idea - and pointless if there is unlimited free agency

That way the better clubs can develop the best talent and the other clubs can benefit by poaching them under free agency.

The effect would be the whole competition would benefit.

You could argue the top clubs would be self perpetuating but aren't they anyway ? And they have to keep those players who could earn much more elsewhere.

We copied the draft from US sports but they already have feeder competitions where development is the key criteria - so when the draft happens the better players are more obvious

Oh and scrap compo picks

First of all no disrespect I have nothing but respesct for hawthorn. I can see what your saying with concerns of guys like Watts etc. being "Lost in the system" but there are a lot of flaws with your argument specifically with your own club in this.

Football has natural flows, teams go up, teams go down it's just natural with our current system. My own team made 4 grand finals in a row, winning 3 of them just 10 odd years ago but in previous years, would be stuffed winning a chook raffle. In your own argument, in lets say the 2004 draft, instead of Lance Franklin (pick 5 1st round) and Jordan Lewis (Pick 7) you would have received Lynden Dunn (5th bottom 1st rounder) and Matthew Bate (7th bottom 1st rounder).

Also you say that the teams with the best development and facilities deserve the best picks, does that mean someone like North Melbourne with brand new facilities, arguably the best in Australia and Brad Scott (for mine the best coach going around at the moment) with a good club culture deserve pick 1 every year?

You also suggest that teams like Hawthorn (the club you support) deserves a top pick because they have good development procedures in place? In terms of Hawthorn in particular, I'd have to disagree, if you speak to Hawthorn fans guys like Hallahan, Savage, Smith, Boumann, Grimley are meant to be the next big things but really haven't shown a lot for mine yet and I think Clarkson knows there is a lack of quality youth at the club and needs to win more premierships soon, hence the drafting of Brian Lake.

Or should the top pick go to Brisbane, without being biased we have yet again shown terrific development of highly touted young players Rich, Redden, Luenberger etc. As well as players that no-one wanted Rockliff, Beams, Golby etc. were all taken PSD or Rookie Draft and the players have consistently improved year after year, obviously there is great development systems in place.

 

[Pat_Footy]

It is a worthy point. Obviously the premise of the thread is wrong. The OP should have just gone with a debate regarding top talent and poor clubs. Top talent often goes to waste through poor development and coaching. Melbourne are the obvious example.

It's not fair on the draftees to have their careers crippled purely through clubs screwing their development.

 

[Tazwegian]

You could argue the top clubs would be self perpetuating but aren't they anyway ? And they have to keep those players who could earn much more elsewhere.

No. 11 different winners since 1995. Other clubs have been up and down. The draft order is there for a reason. All clubs should have sufficient resources to develop players, some are naturally going to be better than others, but the standard is pretty even.

 

[SaintsManMat]

If you are going to introduce this ridiculous idea, you might as well just scrap the draft as it was introduced to help bottom clubs build towards success

probably the dumbest idea i have ever heard, give the premiers access to the best young player in the country? yeh sounds good

 

[SaintsManMat]

On further consideration - the worst players are punished by having to go to Port Adelaide and Melbourne, and the best are rewarded with training and support from the best club systems. Its just like the top uni graduates getting placements with the best companies, not working at IGA or Visy

Umm you do realise Visy has a world class Technical centre with some pretty highly qualified scientists and robotic engineers etc?

My first job out of Uni was at Visy's technical centre in their analytical laboratory

 

[swansfan51]

Umm you do realise Visy has a world class Technical centre with some pretty highly qualified scientists and robotic engineers etc?

My first job out of Uni was at Visy's technical centre in their analytical laboratory

It was more having a crack at them BigFooty style for their connection with the AFL. I assume the entire thread is a joke and posted accordingly

 

[mayhem20202]

lets face it the current reverse order means the best players go to the worst clubs, where they receive the worst development effort. often fading into obscurity.

If the salary cap is kept and strengthened, and there is unlimited free agency - why not make the premiers take the first pick and the spooners the last. No trading for picks allowed as this dilutes the whole idea - and pointless if there is unlimited free agency

That way the better clubs can develop the best talent and the other clubs can benefit by poaching them under free agency.

The effect would be the whole competition would benefit.

You could argue the top clubs would be self perpetuating but aren't they anyway ? And they have to keep those players who could earn much more elsewhere.

We copied the draft from US sports but they already have feeder competitions where development is the key criteria - so when the draft happens the better players are more obvious

Oh and scrap compo picks

Can't say I agree with the idea, or even think that is has any merit, however if this was the case, they would need to revamp free agency. There would certainly need to be no compensation picks given out when players are lost, and they would definitely need to bring the free agency eligibility back from 7 years to a max of 4, maybe even 3.

 

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

Lol, could you imagine if this system was in place? Essendon draft Nick Riewoldt after their 2000 flag, Brisbane picking Hodge, Ball or Judd after their 2001 flag... Geelong nabbing Kreuzer or Cotchin after taking out 2007, or Hawthorn getting Naitanui in 2008...

Seriously?

What
The
F***?

 

[Pessimistic]

Not jack Watts ?

Thats my point

 

[coryne]

Could you imaging how unbeatable a club such as Geelong would be is this kind of system was introduced in 2007

2007 they would have netted Kreuzer or Cotchin
2008 they would have got Watts or Nic Nat (depending on who Hawthorn recruited) for being runners up
2009 they would have had a Scully/Trengove/Martin

This is before the craziness of the expansion sides kicked in.

Could you imagine if they slotted Cotchin, Nic Nat and Martin into their side (and take out Taylor, Brown and Menzel). Taylor would be a pretty big loss, but they would have also had pick #19ish as their 2nd rd pick and probably still have been able to draft Taylor into the side. Actually they would have probably STILL been able to get a some damn good players in 2008 and 2009 as their second rd picks would only be a couple of places behind where they actually were for their 1st rd selections


The whole "loosing players due to the salary cap" thing would also be less of an issues as players have proven they will take smaller contracts to stay together to gain success, as shown by Geelong themselves. The top side would basically be loosing depth players to top 5 quality kids, with the majority of said players taking pay cuts to stay in the resulting juggernaut created.

 

[LeverPuller]

My idea is better but no less crazy.

Draft picks awarded in order of how long it's been since the club last won the flag. Teams who haven't won the flag are put in at year of entry to the comp.

Thus, current draft order:

1 - Bulldogs
2 - Melbourne
3 - St Kilda
4 - Richmond
5 - Carlton
6 - Fremantle
7 - Adelaide
8 - North
9 - Essendon
10 - Brisbane
11 - Port
12 - West Coast
13 - Hawthorn
14 - Collingwood
15 - Gold Coast
16 - Geelong
17 - GWS
18 - Sydney

No possible way for teams to tank. When a team wins the flag they drop to last spot. Picks resume normal ladder order from 2nd round. No compo.