Cousins 2005 or Gablett 2009?

[Hodgepodge]

i fail to see any logic behind this apparent cheap possesions theory

as dermott brereton pointed out, which was a very very good point he made in defence of ablett.

that in defense, you want the ball in the hands of the best most skilled player in your side, its the most pressurizing place on the ground for the ball to be in, and especially with the new frontal pressures, ablett is the bloke you want the ball in the hands of every single time down their, that its not cheap possesions, his disposals in the back half are probly just as important as any other disposal he gathers. besides his possesions in the back half, he was number 1 in the AFL for contested possesions

He was No.1 in the AFL for possessions. Naturally about 30% of them are going to be counted as 'contested' by the statisticians.

He does get a lot of the ball behind the pack, receiving little handballs and giving off again. It's good to share the ball around as it gives players confidence.

Unfortunately Geelong can't carry out this gameplan unless they are dominating.

This is the reason why Ablett's had his worst games this year when the result has been close and his best when it's been a blowout.

 

[Hodgepodge]

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and geelong hit the forward and kicked the goal...

I raise you 5:40-6:30 of the following clip

[youtube]9Yh5oVdFIIc[/youtube]

Good chain of possession there, including some magic from the delicious one.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

He was No.1 in the AFL for possessions. Naturally about 30% of them are going to be counted as 'contested' by the statisticians.

He does get a lot of the ball behind the pack, receiving little handballs and giving off again. It's good to share the ball around as it gives players confidence.

Unfortunately Geelong can't carry out this gameplan unless they are dominating.

This is the reason why Ablett's had his worst games this year when the result has been close and his best when it's been a blowout.

he does get a lot of possessions off teammates running past, but why wouldnt you give the ball to garry ablett if you had the chance to? you would be stupid not to hand it over, he uses the ball better then anyone else in the AFL, so i really dont know where your heading with that point, because its whats best for the team to be giving it to him.

half the reason he gets the ball given to him is because he runs so hard, his taggers dont have the fitness or stamina to keep up with him.

he is number one in the AFL for hard ball gets because he gets under the packs, gets the footy alot himself, and does the hard physical pack work, this has nothing to do with being a reciever, its about the tough in and under work ablett does and one on one footy, which he is the best in the AFL at, as the stat reflects.

he is just the complete midfielder, i give you a bit more credit than grandblue hodgepodge, i think even you can see he is the best in the league, him and franklin when on song are clear 1 and 2.

theirs only ever going to be one garry ablett senior, and whatever son he had was always going to be a bundle of tallent from birth, embrace it mate, dont be envious.

 

[Hodgepodge]

he does get a lot of possessions off teammates running past, but why wouldnt you give the ball to garry ablett if you had the chance to?

That's the reason why you discount his high possession numbers the same way we discount Aaron Davey's.

Melbourne give it to Davey at every opportunity, and while he probably kicks it a lot more than Ablett, the possessions are still cheapish.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

That's the reason why you discount his high possession numbers the same way we discount Aaron Davey's.

Melbourne give it to Davey at every opportunity, and while he probably kicks it a lot more than Ablett, the possessions are still cheapish.

like i posted after, he gets these possesions because he runs hard off his tagger to recieve them and then uses it effectively, how is that cheap?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

That's the reason why you discount his high possession numbers the same way we discount Aaron Davey's.

Melbourne give it to Davey at every opportunity, and while he probably kicks it a lot more than Ablett, the possessions are still cheapish.

as analyzed by the AFL stats experts, he is the player who gets more contested footy than anyone else, so he does it all, contested or non contested footy. its not cheap possesions

 

[Hodgepodge]

as analyzed by the AFL stats experts, he is the player who gets more contested footy than anyone else, so he does it all, contested or non contested footy.

Contested footy can still be cheap.

And anybody who gets given the ball as much as Ablett is definitely going to lead the contested ball charts.

i.e. When Dane Swan was getting a lot of the ball, he was also averaging more contested ball than anyone else.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Contested footy can still be cheap.

And anybody who gets given the ball as much as Ablett is definitely going to lead the contested ball charts.

i.e. When Dane Swan was getting a lot of the ball, he was also averaging more contested ball than anyone else.

no its not cheap hodgepodge, its called contested football for a reason, because it is contested

 

[Hodgepodge]

no its not cheap hodgepodge, its called contested football for a reason, because it is contested

Free kicks and disposals within a metre of an opponent are counted as contested possession. A 1-2 is usually good for two contested possessions. It's cheap football, even if it's recorded as 'contested'.

Anybody who averages as much possession as Ablett is going to win the contested possession for the year, too.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

At their absolute best, if he could produce it consistently quarter by quarter and week in and week out I'd take Kerr before any of them with Ablett a very close second.

I'm as big fan of Cousins as anyone, I wish Geelong had've got him under the F/S rule when he started out. He was after all born in Geelong and I remember watching his old man playing.

In answer to the OP, I might just lean towards Cousins. I think Ablett has played better than he did in '09. Watching Cousins run until he spewed, getting knocked from pillar to post and then just continuing to run was awesome.

People talking about how inspirational Cousins is compared to Ablett either don't pay attention or are just anti-Ablett. In this year's GF who was it that was still running his guts out in the second half and in particular the last quarter, busting packs and opening the game up with sure hands and precise disposal when no one else seemed capable of doing it.

As for HodgePodge (I can't believe I'm responding to his dribble) about blowouts and close ones, 4 games I can think of straight off the top of my head.
'07 Preliminary Final v Collingwood he was probably second best to Ottens in a very tight one.
'07 Grand Final v Port Adelaide he did some very nice things but was well down the pecking order in an absolute blow out.
'08 Grand Final v Hawthorn in a closeish game was easily Geelong's best.
'09 Grand Final v St Kilda in a close one, was quietish in the first half then probably Geelong's best in the second.

 

[Hodgepodge]

'07 Preliminary Final v Collingwood he was probably second best to Ottens in a very tight one.
'07 Grand Final v Port Adelaide he did some very nice things but was well down the pecking order in an absolute blow out.
'08 Grand Final v Hawthorn in a closeish game was easily Geelong's best.
'09 Grand Final v St Kilda in a close one, was quietish in the first half then probably Geelong's best in the second.

We're talking about '09 champ.

And yes, he was below his best in that close game. Stats still read ok, but he had no impact.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

I really hope you were drunk when you wrote this...or maybe you're a 7 year old? Otherwise that is pretty sad.

No i wasnt drunk and no im not a 7 year old and because you obviously didnt get what i said i was talkin about when geelong are bringing it out there backline and just handpassing it to eachother when they could do a thew handpasses but they do 10 yes stats do mean a fair bit in football but geelong have that many kicks and handballs its not funny its just crap to watch well maybe not for geelong supporters but for teams that dont follow geelong i would much rather watch saints then geelong but maybe thats just me.

 

[wce_all_da_way]

No i wasnt drunk and no im not a 7 year old and because you obviously didnt get what i said i was talkin about when geelong are bringing it out there backline and just handpassing it to eachother when they could do a thew handpasses but they do 10 yes stats do mean a fair bit in football but geelong have that many kicks and handballs its not funny its just crap to watch well maybe not for geelong supporters but for teams that dont follow geelong i would much rather watch saints then geelong but maybe thats just me.

I applaud your sentence extending abilities.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

I applaud your sentence extending abilities.

Yeah but its a weekend so who cares.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Free kicks and disposals within a metre of an opponent are counted as contested possession. A 1-2 is usually good for two contested possessions. It's cheap football, even if it's recorded as 'contested'.

Anybody who averages as much possession as Ablett is going to win the contested possession for the year, too.

not true, a contested possesion is just that, a possesion won in a contested situation in packs and in tight one on one situations, so your wrong hodge podge, your basing your argument on false logics

 

[geelong_crazy26]

No i wasnt drunk and no im not a 7 year old and because you obviously didnt get what i said i was talkin about when geelong are bringing it out there backline and just handpassing it to eachother when they could do a thew handpasses but they do 10 yes stats do mean a fair bit in football but geelong have that many kicks and handballs its not funny its just crap to watch well maybe not for geelong supporters but for teams that dont follow geelong i would much rather watch saints then geelong but maybe thats just me.

put simply, you get frustrated because we keep control of the ball and are to good in games.

 

[Hodgepodge]

not true, a contested possesion is just that, a possesion won in a contested situation in packs and in tight one on one situations, so your wrong hodge podge, your basing your argument on false logics

I've decided you need some facts if you're going to argue this case any further.

Have a read:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/66844/default.aspx

It sounds like you got 'contested possession' mixed up with 'hard ball get'.

They're two totally different stats, and while 'contested possessions' are quoted by just about every DTer, most don't know what they actually are.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

We're talking about '09 champ.

And yes, he was below his best in that close game. Stats still read ok, but he had no impact.

Now the obvious question you're baiting me for. Which game are you referring to?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

i think the reason why cousins is winning this pole is because people got confused and think its ablett 06 we are talking about, no way cousins is close to ablett.

ablett is the best player in a great side
cousins was not even the best player in an ordinary premiership side

I would say that ablett has no weakness at all

hes quick
physicaly strong
uses the ball better than anyone in the comp by both hand and foot
can play up forward
reads the play well

this cheap stats theory is just nonsense , i except that the contested stats might not be a perfect measure, however some perspetive if he is leading the comp for contested footy their is no way that he can not be winning alot of his own ball.

their is no camparison between the two , ablett is considerd the best player in the comp by the players, the coaches,the media ,the umpies and the genaral public .Plus he has 2 premiership medals

 

[GrandBlue]

i think the reason why cousins is winning this pole is because people got confused and think its ablett 06 we are talking about, no way cousins is close to ablett.

ablett is the best player in a great side
cousins was not even the best player in an ordinary premiership side

I would say that ablett has no weakness at all

hes quick
physicaly strong
uses the ball better than anyone in the comp by both hand and foot
can play up forward
reads the play well

this cheap stats theory is just nonsense , i except that the contested stats might not be a perfect measure, however some perspetive if he is leading the comp for contested footy their is no way that he can not be winning alot of his own ball.

their is no camparison between the two , ablett is considerd the best player in the comp by the players, the coaches,the media ,the umpies and the genaral public .Plus he has 2 premiership medals

Your head really is as thick as a brick.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Now the obvious question you're baiting me for. Which game are you referring to?

The '09 game I quoted Didn't realise I was being so cryptic.

But you can also include the H&A game against StKilda.

 

[owenkraveki]

geelong_crazy26 seems to continue to emphatically argue heavily in gablett's favor based on his debunked theory of 'contested footy', and awards, regardless of the rationality of his opponents' arguments.

Although, looking at his signature, ignorant, generalised, Bay 13-esque statements seem to be all that he is capable of.

And answering the OP, I'd happily welcome either bloke with open arms, but the inspiration and leadership Cousins provides, along with his class and skills, more than compensates for the niche Crawford left.

 

[Mephistopheles929]

Great, yet again, statistics are being brought into the equation. A Hardball get statistic gets added if you pick the ball up off the ground whilst a couple of meters away from another player and you don't even have to give it off. The way I see it, every time Ablett picks the ball up off the ground, he gets instantly tackled then ball up, or if he tries to take the opposition on, Free Kick against.

Oh, and regarding the tackling, you seem to be rating quantity higher than quality. I will admit, it's not Cousins' best statistic, however, it's his pressure on the opposition in general that he excells at and is something Ablett lacks.

By the way, if statistics are brought into the equation, Cousins smashes Ablett in Inside 50s. But as I said, that doesn't make him a better player. All previous points do.

So how exactly do you measure someone's pressure on the opposition? Players whose pressuring skills are considered elite; Brett Kirk, Lenny Hayes, Cyril Rioli, Jimmy Bartel, Brad Sewell...all have high tackle counts.

Surely the best way to put pressure on a bloke with the football is to tackle him. Cousins laid 33 tackles in 2005, Ablett laid 92 tackles in 2009. I think that those stats provide a fair indication on their defensive pressuring abilities.

So what exactly is it that Cousins does that proves his pressuring skills are elite while Ablett's are so poor?

I think you're confusing hardball gets with contested possessions too. A hardball get stat is only recorded when you make contact with another player. Ablett's been in the top 5 of the league for hardball gets for the past three years. If the way you see it is that every time Ablett picks the ball up off the ground he gets tackled or gives a way a free kick then you obviously don't watch him play very often.

 

[Mephistopheles929]

He was No.1 in the AFL for possessions. Naturally about 30% of them are going to be counted as 'contested' by the statisticians.

He does get a lot of the ball behind the pack, receiving little handballs and giving off again. It's good to share the ball around as it gives players confidence.

Unfortunately Geelong can't carry out this gameplan unless they are dominating.

This is the reason why Ablett's had his worst games this year when the result has been close and his best when it's been a blowout.

Of the 7 H&A games he played in where the result was less than 15 points he polled Brownlow votes in 4 of them, all BOG.

Only 2/8 of his Brownlow 3 vote games came in 6+ goal wins, with the R5 game against Brisbane the only genuine blowout.

He polled 17/30 Brownlow votes in games where the margin was under 4 goals with only 9 of those votes coming in 6+ goal wins.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Of the 7 H&A games he played in where the result was less than 15 points he polled Brownlow votes in 4 of them, all BOG.

You're basing your entire argument on how many Brownlow votes he won, which is just pure folly.

He got 3 votes for his performance against StKilda? Hard to believe.