COVID-19 / Coronavirus

[Brishawk]

It might be hard to say which protocols were breached in which way, until we know what & how they were communicated.. The media are talking about guards with 5 minutes of training... That's not a protocol in my book... But i am happy to wait and see what the inquiry says.

Yeah I'm sure the contract with the security firm included a provision to ensure staff were adequately trained, which doesn't seem to have occurred. Of course, I'm not sure how much additional training you need to know not to sleep with people in quarantine given the widespread advice to keep 1.5 from people and avoid prolonged contact.

 

[rdhopkins2]

I hope every security guard working at the quarantine hotels has been tested and is self-isolating.
It beggars belief though that a guard/s would sleep with a quarantined guest though. C’mon, that’s just ridiculous.

I have no doubt they would have been poorly trained but use an iota common sense.

 

[Kanga Commando]

Yeah I'm sure the contract with the security firm included a provision to ensure staff were adequately trained, which doesn't seem to have occurred. Of course, I'm not sure how much additional training you need to know not to sleep with people in quarantine given the widespread advice to keep 1.5 from people and avoid prolonged contact.

you would think not sleeping with people in quarantine is a captain obvious if ever there was one..

 

[Gralin]

you would think not sleeping with people in quarantine is a captain obvious if ever there was one..

Yes it seems the breakdowns that have caused the outbreak are pretty simple things that no one should be able to claim is a failure of training.

Whether the proper oversight and auditing was put in place, whether there were complaints that were ignored, that could all come out with the inquiry being run now.

I'm interested to see how much falls on Government departments, vs Security firm management vs the people doing the stupid shit directly

 

[Brishawk]

There was a systemic floor in the protocol, are you living under a rock Bris? Our state handed the quarantine responsibility to private security firms who had little to no training, who then went and spread the virus through the community. You're telling me this was the right initiative? Which other state used private firms? Further to that, when the VIC Gov initially released the outcomes of breaches, in lieu of handing the responsibility over to VICPOL or the ADF (as was offered) they instead hired another firm who further bungled the operation.

Go ahead, please give me the reasoning as to how on earth this was not a protocol fluff up of a catastrophic nature?

No, the protocol is social distancing and the firm didn't implement it. But really, how much more training is required to eliminate the risk of security staff sleeping with people in quarantine?

State Governments have actually used security guards in, at minimum, NSW, Queensland and WA. However, there was differences on how security and sites were managed. Collectively, the states will now have evidence on which to base a best practice approach. Given this has never happened before, the risks at time of decision are not clear and there is little chance of perfect outcomes. Australia, is as good as it gets globally so really you are complaining about relatively minor issues compared with the catastrophes occurring globally. This is not to diminish your personal suffering etc., but in context of the planet we are the exemplar.

Let's face it, had Dan Andrews brought in the ADF from day one, you would have been rolling out the 'Dictator Dan' line and bemoaned the rise of fascism in Victoria, and asked why are we spending millions on bringing the ADF in when no other state has and when we could have employed lower cost security firms? Or maybe you would have preferred people self-isolating at home and people take personal responsibility.

I could easily use this to suggest the federal government was responsible given they demanded the quarantines but provided no resources. They left it to the states, who have no experience, to deal with these matters on their own. The national boarder is the federal responsibility, so of course they should have been in charge of the quarantine of individuals. Or I could argue the lack of unionisation of the security industry, and the lack of a union presence in the establishment of on site activity led to inadequate health and safety procedures which compromised the safety of security workers and the Australian people. But it is all spin. The situation is complex and full of uncertainty. There is no simple, easy answer, accessible only to Liberal voters with 'common sense'. All you are doing is complaining about the outcome and twisting it into your pre-existing narrative of Dan Andrews/ALP failure. Take a break. You will feel better about things. The situation will improve.

 

[Gralin]

SA also using security guards as they sent one home for breaking the rules

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

I hope every security guard working at the quarantine hotels has been tested and is self-isolating.
It beggars belief though that a guard/s would sleep with a quarantined guest though. C’mon, that’s just ridiculous.

I have no doubt they would have been poorly trained but use an iota common sense.

It wouldn't be the first time a fella has risked a virus for a root.

 

[Kanga Commando]

Yes it seems the breakdowns that have caused the outbreak are pretty simple things that no one should be able to claim is a failure of training.

Whether the proper oversight and auditing was put in place, whether there were complaints that were ignored, that could all come out with the inquiry being run now.

I'm interested to see how much falls on Government departments, vs Security firm management vs the people doing the stupid sh*t directly

I suspect a shitfight when its all over regardless

 

[Pessimistic]

Been watching UK news. they have the city of leicester in 'lockdown' but its entirely voluntary

"we are trusting people to 'do the right thing' but if it seems they aren't we might think about enforcing it."

Seems like a non caring govt doesn't give a shit, but is obsessed with sounding legit

 

[MightyHawks]

I think one of the big problems is the Premiers & Prime Minister haven’t been able to agree on whether it’s suppression or elimination. The hotel policy is fine to have holes if we are going for suppression. At the time no one though elimination was possible. But why has it not been updated? Scomo doesn’t seem to think elimination is possible. Gladys & Dan haven’t acted in ways that they think it is either

 

[Gralin]

I think one of the big problems is the Premiers & Prime Minister haven’t been able to agree on whether it’s suppression or elimination. The hotel policy is fine to have holes if we are going for suppression. At the time no one though elimination was possible. But why has it not been updated? Scomo doesn’t seem to think elimination is possible. Gladys & Dan haven’t acted in ways that they think it is either

We still have people from overseas coming via ship and boat with supplies we import and taking stuff we export, we might have our borders closed but its not just people in hotel quarantine that could be a way in for new cases.

Elimination is great until you then sit around for the next couple of years with no idea how to deal with an outbreak so you can't open up your borders to anyone else who isn't also zero.

 

[Brishawk]

Been watching UK news. they have the city of leicester in 'lockdown' but its entirely voluntary

"we are trusting people to 'do the right thing' but if it seems they aren't we might think about enforcing it."

Seems like a non caring govt doesn't give a sh*t, but is obsessed with sounding legit

The uk are one of the worst performing nations on the planet. I wouldn’t be taking their advice!

 

[Brishawk]

I think one of the big problems is the Premiers & Prime Minister haven’t been able to agree on whether it’s suppression or elimination. The hotel policy is fine to have holes if we are going for suppression. At the time no one though elimination was possible. But why has it not been updated? Scomo doesn’t seem to think elimination is possible. Gladys & Dan haven’t acted in ways that they think it is either

Elimination is probably untenable without confinement. Suppressing the reproduction rate and controlling outbreaks is tenable but how long can people legitimately be restricted for? We desperately need a treatment.

 

[MightyHawks]

Elimination is probably untenable without confinement. Suppressing the reproduction rate and controlling outbreaks is tenable but how long can people legitimately be restricted for? We desperately need a treatment.

It seems that the biggest problem we have is that there have been examples of people who have not listened to authorities

Victoria really should have it as a jailable offense like in WA if you have the virus and you breach quarantine.

You only need to have literally a handful of people to wander around when they should be quarantined to create a real problem

 

[Badesumofu]

I'd suggest that Dim Tim Smith and his ilk are responsible for giving idiots cover to ignore the restrictions with the endless Dictator Dan rubbish. You say that often enough and people start to think it's all a joke and start getting on the beers with 30 of their closest friends.

Actually has anyone ever seen Dim Tim and Tige19 in the same room? Similar rhetorical styles and attitudes.

 

[Xtreme]

SA also using security guards as they sent one home for breaking the rules

Should have just borrowed the Behavioral Officers from the AFL instead!!!

 

[Gralin]

I'd suggest that Dim Tim Smith and his ilk are responsible for giving idiots cover to ignore the restrictions with the endless Dictator Dan rubbish. You say that often enough and people start to think it's all a joke and start getting on the beers with 30 of their closest friends.

Actually has anyone ever seen Dim Tim and Tige19 in the same room? Similar rhetorical styles and attitudes.

It's funny how he gets called Dictator Dan by people complaining he didn't dictate hard enough

 

[MrPremiership]

I'd suggest that Dim Tim Smith and his ilk are responsible for giving idiots cover to ignore the restrictions with the endless Dictator Dan rubbish. You say that often enough and people start to think it's all a joke and start getting on the beers with 30 of their closest friends.

Amen

 

[MightyHawks]

 

[CD Xbow]

Do show me the data and science proving this as factual?

I can't tell you a figure yet because the data is not available yet, but there are many indicators this is so. Remember people who go to ICU and get ventilated or put on ECMO can get a wide range of complications, irrespective of the cause of needing to go to ICU. Covid19 just adds to the woes.

1. About 25% people who go on ECMO get knocked off mentally 'for some reason'. (=pump heads, happened to my mother in law) it was thought to be due to clots, but may be a reaction to lubricants or other containments. It's horrible when people come out of ICU and they are not the person they were. There are many other complications of being on ECMO, especially if prolonged.

2. Folks in ICU for prolonged periods of ventilation also suffer numerous long term complications which affect them in many ways.

• Ventilator-Associated Pneumonia (VAP)
• Ventilator-associated lung injury (VALI) including pneumothorax.
• Muscle wasting: specifically, of respiratory muscles (which starts to happen within 18 hours of mechanical ventilation). This, of course, creates the need for even more prolonged ventilation by frustrating our weaning efforts.
• Swallowing dysfunction (prolonged stimulation of the gag reflex)
• Laryngeal injury due to tube pressure or accidental self-extubation
• Tracheal injury due to cuff pressure and movement-related erosion
• Carina and bronchial injury due to repeated suctioning
• Laryngotracheal stenosis
• Tracheal stenosis
• Tracheomalacia (deterioration of tracheal cartilages)
• Tracheal stensosis (or tracheoectasia)
• Tracheomalacia (deterioration of tracheal cartilages)
• Tracheo-innominate fistula
• Traeo-oesophageal fistula
• Mucosal ulceration and gastric bleeding due to decreased gastric blood flow
• Neuropsychiatric complications
• et al.

3. In addition there are many other complications, not directly related to ventilation or ECMO that they may sustain in ICU eg thombo-embolic events such as DVT's and PE's, sepsis, complications from having numerous holes poked in them, medical misadventure of various types etc. Believe me, you don't want to go to ICU unless you really, really have to.

4. Now Covid 19 is particularly nasty, as it has a propensity for thombo-embolic events, cardiac injury, multiorgan failure and other immune mediated reactions that are not understood yet. There are many reports of young people with strokes, PE's, dead legs as well as the oddball immune reactions like a 'cytokine storm' picture. This article is a readable summary for non medical folks https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-complications#1 Children develop something like Kawasaki syndrome, which has been named Paediatric Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome - see https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2767209 - the paper looks at 58 cases in UK with 4 deaths, so, yes children die from it to. Less than us old folks, but they do die. From these UK figures it's at a rate of about 1 in a thousand covid deaths are children < 17 yo.

Now when we get data, add up people from those 4 groups and see how many have suffered chronic illness from Covid 19. We should be able to do it for Oz as we hopefully keep our deaths less than a few hundred and it won't be too hard. I will bet anything there are more people with chronic complications/illness from Covid19 than deaths from it.

 

[CD Xbow]

Yeah I'm sure the contract with the security firm included a provision to ensure staff were adequately trained, which doesn't seem to have occurred. Of course, I'm not sure how much additional training you need to know not to sleep with people in quarantine given the widespread advice to keep 1.5 from people and avoid prolonged contact.

To be safe it requires whole body application of the condom, which when you think about is appropriate because you would have to be a d***head.

 

[tige19]

It's funny how he gets called Dictator Dan by people complaining he didn't dictate hard enough

You don’t get it, people are unhappy because he went hard on lockdown and yet gives a free pass to protestors (both cfmeu and BLM) and goes totally lax with quarantine measures. As much as I call out DA, you protect him, then you’ll scram “Oh, I am no fanboy”. Gralin, you are every bit a little lefty fan boy of DA, I’m not sure why you just don’t own it.

 

[tige19]

I can't tell you a figure yet because the data is not available yet, but there are many indicators this is so. Remember people who go to ICU and get ventilated or put on ECMO can get a wide range of complications, irrespective of the cause of needing to go to ICU. Covid19 just adds to the woes.

1. About 25% people who go on ECMO get knocked off mentally 'for some reason'. (=pump heads, happened to my mother in law) it was thought to be due to clots, but may be a reaction to lubricants or other containments. It's horrible when people come out of ICU and they are not the person they were. There are many other complications of being on ECMO, especially if prolonged.

2. Folks in ICU for prolonged periods of ventilation also suffer numerous long term complications which affect them in many ways.

• Ventilator-Associated Pneumonia (VAP)
• Ventilator-associated lung injury (VALI) including pneumothorax.
• Muscle wasting: specifically, of respiratory muscles (which starts to happen within 18 hours of mechanical ventilation). This, of course, creates the need for even more prolonged ventilation by frustrating our weaning efforts.
• Swallowing dysfunction (prolonged stimulation of the gag reflex)
• Laryngeal injury due to tube pressure or accidental self-extubation
• Tracheal injury due to cuff pressure and movement-related erosion
• Carina and bronchial injury due to repeated suctioning
• Laryngotracheal stenosis
• Tracheal stenosis
• Tracheomalacia (deterioration of tracheal cartilages)
• Tracheal stensosis (or tracheoectasia)
• Tracheomalacia (deterioration of tracheal cartilages)
• Tracheo-innominate fistula
• Traeo-oesophageal fistula
• Mucosal ulceration and gastric bleeding due to decreased gastric blood flow
• Neuropsychiatric complications
• et al.

3. In addition there are many other complications, not directly related to ventilation or ECMO that they may sustain in ICU eg thombo-embolic events such as DVT's and PE's, sepsis, complications from having numerous holes poked in them, medical misadventure of various types etc. Believe me, you don't want to go to ICU unless you really, really have to.

4. Now Covid 19 is particularly nasty, as it has a propensity for thombo-embolic events, cardiac injury, multiorgan failure and other immune mediated reactions that are not understood yet. There are many reports of young people with strokes, PE's, dead legs as well as the oddball immune reactions like a 'cytokine storm' picture. This article is a readable summary for non medical folks https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-complications#1 Children develop something like Kawasaki syndrome, which has been named Paediatric Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome - see https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2767209 - the paper looks at 58 cases in UK with 4 deaths, so, yes children die from it to. Less than us old folks, but they do die. From these UK figures it's at a rate of about 1 in a thousand covid deaths are children < 17 yo.

Now when we get data, add up people from those 4 groups and see how many have suffered chronic illness from Covid 19. We should be able to do it for Oz as we hopefully keep our deaths less than a few hundred and it won't be too hard. I will bet anything there are more people with chronic complications/illness from Covid19 than deaths from it.

Great post.

I have read literature on prolonged ventilator use, and I agree there is a body of evidence that there are long term issues associated. But, that is not a direct virus issue, that is a side effect of treatment, much like when cancer sufferers suffer from side effects of chemo.

I am yet to find anything concrete studies/literature that states with any certainty that Covid19 causes long term health issues. Those that have minor cases (90%) won’t need hospitalisation, why would you assume they will suffer adverse effects for years to come?

Every single professional has guessed and hypothesised about Covid and next to none of them have even been close to the realities, forgive me for not believing anything anyone says about this.

 

[phlogiston]

I am yet to find anything concrete studies/literature that states with any certainty that Covid19 causes long term health issues.

Do you reckon that's because the illness has only been around for 6-7 months?

 

[Mr Lizard]

close to the realities,