Covid 19 (OPEN DISCUSSION)

[ziad]

It's also pretty tiresome watching the WA Premier potshot other states' handling of COVID when his govt to date refuses to actually deal with it. There's definitely a sentiment of 'piss or get off the pot mate' bubbling away.

McGowan should really shut his mouth about death counts in other states and how their health systems are coping because he's just inviting criticism when our time comes. You can't hide behind 'we crushed COVID in 2020' forever.

Pity he didnt let me go to my mothers funeral.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

It's also pretty tiresome watching the WA Premier potshot other states' handling of COVID when his govt to date refuses to actually deal with it. There's definitely a sentiment of 'piss or get off the pot mate' bubbling away.

McGowan should really shut his mouth about death counts in other states and how their health systems are coping because he's just inviting criticism when our time comes. You can't hide behind 'we crushed COVID in 2020' forever.

I was always under the impression that one credible strategy to handle Covid was to not allow it to run rampant through the population, killing lots of people, necessitating significant restrictions, and damaging the economy.

 

[Scotland]

If your point is that The West is a terrible newspaper, you’ll certainly get no argument from me.

The West is a terrible newspaper, but when they are saying the same thing as ABC News maybe their political leaning/ownership isn't the issue...

 

[ep2018]

The higher ups, media moguls etc in the state prefer it when Labor control the state and the LNP control the country, hence the West sucking up to McGowan during the state election, and now they are throwing him to the wolves.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

I think it's more likely that polling showed that McGowan was massively popular, and it would have looked ridiculous for The West to oppose him and endorse the Liberals who were completely hapless going into the last election.

 

[Balls In]

COVID petition Dr interview. He is clearly an extremist, citing 90 %vax rates, hot dry summer and mild variant as perfect reasons to open up now;

 

[Balls In]

If the federal government is going to back Clive Palmer's frivolous lawsuits, the Deputy Prime Minister call WA a hermit kingdom and compare it to North Korea, and the Premier of NSW take frequent pot shots at WA by comparing McGowan to Gollum (and just yesterday bragging about their awesome health care system and saying they "don't need to permanently close their borders like Western Australia" and "we don't have to go into lockdowns") - a curious statement in a state where there was a three month lockdown in the capital city, hundreds of people are dying each week, and a woman recently had to perform CPR on her own stillborn baby while her husband drove to the hospital because the 000 dispatcher could not give them any idea of when an ambulance might arrive - then the WA government can hardly be blamed for pointing out that they've done a much better job at avoiding economic strife, lockdowns, illness and death than the Coalition people who are attacking them.

All these partisan words of deflection, when it's obvious the premier took a crap on the rug, then wiped his arse on the curtains

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

The lack of self awareness to say this

All these partisan words of deflection,

And this

it's obvious the premier took a crap on the rug, then wiped his arse on the curtains

in the same sentence, is breathtaking.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

COVID petition Dr interview. He is clearly an extremist, citing 90 %vax rates, hot dry summer and mild variant as perfect reasons to open up now;

Who cares what an anaesthetist thinks, let alone actively seeking out media interviews? Should we also get the opinion of a garbageman who thinks that the borders should stay closed indefinitely?

 

[Balls In]

The lack of self awareness to say this
And this



in the same sentence, is breathtaking.

I'd call it exactly the same way if this was a lib premier. I've called out Morrison. I praised McGowan early on. I think McGowan is an economic conservative even now. The genie is completely out of the bottle though. Accepting this shit from any politician is unacceptable.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

Let's take a trip through Dr Torre's twitter feed shall we?





Here's one of his retweets:


But sure let's all care about what some hard right die-hard Liberal voter thinks about what a Labor Premier did (shocking development, he was critical of the premier from the side of politics he hates!)

 

[Ishmael_]

Low quality journalism, but I laugh when as soon as the tide of public opinion turns against McGowan people immediately jump to discrediting the source.

You could tune into Sky News any time in the last two years and the sentiment would be the same. McGowan bad. WA insular. Restrictions over the top. Etc. Victoria in lockdown, 0 cases in WA = WA bad. At least they are consistent. Once they pick a horse they flog it post mortem.

Meanwhile The West features front page fluff pieces about McGowan in is WA bomber jacket and that's OK, but when they stick the boots in for not having a plan after two years it's boo hiss right wing rag always sticking the boots in etc.

The Guardian is running with similar stories now too.

It's a cult of personality at this point, which is frankly bizarre because McGowan prior to the pandemic was just a milquetoast neoliberal who rode to power against an incredibly unpopular state government.

And since that point he's continued to govern that way. Take a look at the policies he brought to the last state election with incredibly high approval ratings. Policies on the economy, on climate change, unions, public sector funding - nothing.

His neophyte opponent had a more comprehensive plan for climate change - a silly market based solution but still, something!

Which is why I find it remarkable when people defend him on tribal lines, he's just another suit who has had the luxury of governing the most isolated state on an island.

What he is exceptionally good at is marketing. Having worked in Labor circles for some time, McGown and his faction are incredibly good at messaging and everything he and his cabal do is focus tested within an inch of its life.

That is why he kept the borders closed, because the blowback from opening with the health system in its current state would be worse than simply moving the goal posts and hoping for the best.

 

[Balls In]

Let's take a trip through Dr Torre's twitter feed shall we?





Here's one of his retweets:


But sure let's all care about what some hard right die-hard Liberal voter thinks about what a Labor Premier did (shocking development, he was critical of the premier from the side of politics he hates!)

I think when you just start blindly attacking the source rather than the points raised it sort of a statement of its own.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

I think when you just start blindly attacking the source rather than the points raised it sort of a statement of its own.

What points has Torre actually raised that are particularly relevant to his position in the hospital system?

 

[wadistance]

What points has Torre actually raised that are particularly relevant to his position in the hospital system?

What relevance does an virologist have in terms of creating a public policy to return to living? A virologist is concerned with how a virus acts inside the body. So why are we asking them about how lessen the spread of the virus? Or how we can live with the virus? Or make estimations of whether covid viral deaths will outnumber deaths due to mental health and emotional heath or not?


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[Balls In]

What points has Torre actually raised that are particularly relevant to his position in the hospital system?

Typically bad faith question from the resident, professional dissembler. Rather than I try answer in good faith like Moose attempted, how about you stump up with a reasoned critique of any point the good Dr raised?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

What relevance does an virologist have in terms of creating a public policy to return to living? A virologist is concerned with how a virus acts inside the body. So why are we asking them about how lessen the spread of the virus? Or how we can live with the virus? Or make estimations of whether covid viral deaths will outnumber deaths due to mental health and emotional heath or not?


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That’s all very interesting but it doesn’t answer my question.

Balls In is putting a lot of stock in the fact that Torres is a doctor and wants the border open, but people are ignoring him because of his leanings. But what’s he actually said, relevant to his position as a doctor, that would change anyone’s mind?

 

[Balls In]

That’s all very interesting but it doesn’t answer my question.

Balls In is putting a lot of stock in the fact that Torres is a doctor and wants the border open, but people are ignoring him because of his leanings. But what’s he actually said, relevant to his position as a doctor, that would change anyone’s mind?

So far we have the head of the AMA, nurses, ICU (and 6000 public sigs) lots of critical opinion pieces published in the West, WA Today, News.com, Perth Now, Sky, ABC and the Guardian no less. Dan Andrews talked of sending "ambassadors" to WA for Christ sake. They are all wrong. We have a president ruling on fear and dividing based on vaxxed vs unvaxxed, east vs West, masked vs unmasked Labor vs liberal. Has still not explained his poop on the rug, his arse wipe on the curtains.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Typically bad faith question from the resident, professional dissembler. Rather than I try answer in good faith like Moose attempted, how about you stump up with a reasoned critique of any point the good Dr raised?

He hasn’t raised any point that hasn’t been raised by non-doctors. It was all “broken promises” and “freedoms”.

If he wants to represent from a health point of view that we should be opening on the 5th, I’ll look at it. At the moment he just looks like another rusted-on LNP voter who’s opposing McGowan because he’s a Labor premier.

 

[wadistance]

That’s all very interesting but it doesn’t answer my question.

Balls In is putting a lot of stock in the fact that Torres is a doctor and wants the border open, but people are ignoring him because of his leanings. But what’s he actually said, relevant to his position as a doctor, that would change anyone’s mind?

I fear there’s not much that doctors can say in favour of reopening society with a milder strain of virus circulating, as the public have been conditioned to panic over the past 2 years.

That’s going to be hard to undo.


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[Balls In]

He hasn’t raised any point that hasn’t been raised by non-doctors. It was all “broken promises” and “freedoms”.

If he wants to represent from a health point of view that we should be opening on the 5th, I’ll look at it. At the moment he just looks like another rusted-on LNP voter who’s opposing McGowan because he’s a Labor premier.

He has addressed the health point in detail. You ignored it and instead attacked him. He says the health system won't be better prepared. Double vaxxed pop, height of summer, mild variant etc

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

I think when you just start blindly attacking the source rather than the points raised it sort of a statement of its own.

The source is an anaesthetist who is publicly commenting on a matter of public health and epidemiology. His petition was minimally about the impact to his hospital and patients but mostly contained stuff like “McGowan said we needed to be double vaxxed and we are, he pulled the rug out from under us” and “we have ignored the Australian way of life,” stuff that might as well be written by Andrew Bolt. Do you think we will see a staunchly left wing nurse who has very little professional insight into McGowan’s decision invited on SkyNews and 6PR to talk about how “McGowan has kept us safe” and “we are doing better than the eastern states”?

And does the fact that the guy is an enthusiastic Liberal voter and a fan of various divisive far-right American political pundits, and seems to hate everyone from Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden to Jeremy Corbyn to Bill Shorten, not suggest that his views on this subject are probably informed less by his professional position than they are by his quite obvious political bias?

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

He has addressed the health point in detail. You ignored it and instead attacked him. He says the health system won't be better prepared. Double vaxxed pop, height of summer, mild variant etc

Well then he is wrong. Given the effectiveness of the booster, which has become increasingly clear in research statistics, a 75% boosted population will definitely fare better than a 30% boosted population. Deaths have skyrocketed in NSW and Victoria despite high percentages of double vaccinated people, the height of summer, and Omicron being a milder variant. I would think that this should matter to a guy whose job is ostensibly to preserve human lives, but I guess right-wing talking points about freedom and Australian way of life are more important to him.

 

[wadistance]

Well then he is wrong. Given the effectiveness of the booster, which has become increasingly clear in research statistics, a 75% boosted population will definitely fare better than a 30% boosted population. Deaths have skyrocketed in NSW and Victoria despite high percentages of double vaccinated people, the height of summer, and Omicron being a milder variant. I would think that this should matter to a guy whose job is ostensibly to preserve human lives, but I guess right-wing talking points about freedom and Australian way of life are more important to him.

Ok, so in terms of total worldwide cases, what’s the difference in percentage of those admitted with serious COVID related issues between those with two vaccines compared to 3? Has it gone from tenth of a percent to a fiftieth of a percent or something like that?


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[Ishmael_]

I fear there’s not much that doctors can say in favour of reopening society with a milder strain of virus circulating, as the public have been conditioned to panic over the past 2 years.

That’s going to be hard to undo.


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That disconnect is articulated nicely by Curtin's Dean of International Health in the Guardian.

‘Not logical’: WA needs more than border closures to fight Covid, experts say

Without education campaigns and further public health measures the state risks both anxiety and complacency

www.theguardian.com

Also interesting to see the other academics questioning the plan. The lack of adequate preparation or COVID mitigation strategies to slow spread, the logic behind pushing the reopening back to winter or the negative effect reneging on an opening date will have on COVID readiness both within the health system and public.