Opinion Creating a Culture of Success at Hawthorn

[Mitchell Madness]

But tell me it wouldn't have been better for the team if Brown in fact had the awareness of the goal post and did not injure his knee at all?

Yes, great determination but also dumb as a box of hammers. You've illustrated the point quite well.

We're applauding clumsiness - and pushing through the adversity caused by the clumsiness.

Conversely, Buddy was also pushing himself to the limit including nailing a long range shot which takes power and skill while super depleted in the 120th minute of the game. Crawford ran his arse off right to the final siren (was he playing on Riccutio?). Neither of these players ran in to a point post so nobody talks about how hard they worked all game.

This is what's weird.

If you are playing, do you notice a player running, or do you notice them sacrificing themselves?

 

[seysearles]

Yep, and this in turn breeds monumentally entitled fans who don’t understand how football clubs and rebuilds work, who start sooking like crybabies when we don’t win the flag every year…

Not sure who you’re referring to but I attended 100’s of games between 1991 and 2008 out in the rain and cold at Waverley park supporting the club during a pretty depressing and uninspiring 17yrs of football that a lot of supporters might not have stuck fat through. Then in 2001 and 2004 we hit the jackpot by doing exactly what I’m calling for, recruiting a core of obsessively driven guys that set the standards and held everyone else to account. It’s a formula that you see time and time again in great teams. Barrassi’s Melbourne, Matthew’s Hawthorn, Voss’s Brisbane, Carey’s North, Selwood’s Geelong, Hodge’s Hawthorn. These are all dynastic clubs and they were all lead by high energy alpha males that set standards.

 

[Yardie]

Not sure who you’re referring to but I attended 100’s of games between 1991 and 2008 out in the rain and cold at Waverley park supporting the club during a pretty depressing and uninspiring 17yrs of football that a lot of supporters might not have stuck fat through. Then in 2001 and 2004 we hit the jackpot by doing exactly what I’m calling for, recruiting a core of obsessively driven guys that set the standards and held everyone else to account. It’s a formula that you see time and time again in great teams. Barrassi’s Melbourne, Matthew’s Hawthorn, Voss’s Brisbane, Carey’s North, Selwood’s Geelong, Hodge’s Hawthorn. These are all dynastic clubs and they were all lead by high energy alpha males that set standards.

Do you think that Sam and MM have not done that?

 

[seysearles]

I can’t think of a single new recruit that doesn’t have the drive you speak of - who do you think lacks drive

Do you think that Sam and MM have not done that?

Well let’s just say it’s not overly apparent right now. I feel very good being in Mitchell’s hands because I know his psychology pretty well by now and I think it’s aligned with what I’m talking about but if I’m honest I don’t see strong leadership and that competitive mongrel in guys like Ward McKenzie DGB McGuinness Brockman Koschitzke Reeves and so on. I know those guys are super young and it’s a bit harsh but the real leaders generally show signs of that character from the get go.

Lewis Day Newcombe and even Moore I have more optimism in but they still need to take it to the next level.

 

[threesixpio]

I'm gonna get on a bit of a rant here.

There's a bit of an old school obsession with wanting leaders to be angry when things aren't going well. To demonstrate frustration and aggression at teammates to pull them into line if they're not doing well enough. I find it so weird.

Geelong just won a flag and half the time their leaders are on the field laughing and joking around. Dangerfield is obsessed with the camera. Selwood is probably the kind that this thread is calling for but who else at Geelong that has kept them up and thereabouts for a decade? Nobody that fits the 'angry about a loss' types that is being called for here.

I saw Nick Maxwell mentioned in this thread. Geezus Christ - of all the people to refer to. Barry Hall? Come on. Let's get serious here - if you're referencing Barry Hall it really just means you like people who get angry.

We don't want a team of Brendan Goddard's who point and yell and their teammates and throw the pretzels on the ground after every loss. Or Barry Hall's who will get suspended every few weeks. I want guys like Nash who get everything out of themselves and don't need that alpha crap to physically intimidate and beat opponents. I want guys like Will Day who got crunched repeatedly (and injured) as a young player but kept getting up and is now strong enough to take the heat and to change the game when playing in the midfield.

We've got the youngest midfield going around and they are winning their bit every week. Newcombe came from the bush league, Nash from another country, Day developed from twig to rig - all of these guys overcame some amazing things to perform at a level that matches some of the best in the competition. This is the leadership and drive a club needs. We are still miles off but the thing we want is happening right in front of our eyes.

Maybe if Newcombe punched the ground after a loss, or if Day screamed in a teammates face after conceding a goal it would soothe some of the testorone needs of the fans . Maybe a bit of footage of Sam Mitchell tearing strips off one of the players would feel good. Probably Chad. People would love that. Maybe if more players pointed to their jumpers after kicking a goal. Or swore when they made a mistake. (Unless the umpire decides that's 50m, then it's horrible leadership and a bad example).

Sorry - I've descended into sarcasm. But my point is that most of the best leaders in the AFL don't make a show of it for the fans. They just keep going and do it for their teammates.

Love this. And your Will Day comment …

Guess who Hodgey thought was tough as nails for taking hits and staying calm?



“Jesus Big Boy. I never bleed. I’m invincible and awesome”

 

[Roddy]

Not sure who you’re referring to but I attended 100’s of games between 1991 and 2008 out in the rain and cold at Waverley park supporting the club during a pretty depressing and uninspiring 17yrs of football that a lot of supporters might not have stuck fat through. Then in 2001 and 2004 we hit the jackpot by doing exactly what I’m calling for, recruiting a core of obsessively driven guys that set the standards and held everyone else to account. It’s a formula that you see time and time again in great teams. Barrassi’s Melbourne, Matthew’s Hawthorn, Voss’s Brisbane, Carey’s North, Selwood’s Geelong, Hodge’s Hawthorn. These are all dynastic clubs and they were all lead by high energy alpha males that set standards.

It's also blatantly clear you are unable to see beyond your own nose....

 

[threesixpio]

It’s so early days. This bunch are competitive as shit. We may need some more polish but grit and determination …not sure that’s our problem

 

[seysearles]

It's also blatantly clear you are unable to see beyond your own nose....

There's no need to play the man. Its funny how people get triggered and go on the attack when there really isn't a provocational tone to the OP. If anything the thread is a tribute to one of our club champions and my opinion (take note that I tagged it as an "opinion" thread) that perhaps there is correlation between those sorts of leaders and on-field success.

I still respect anyone with a differing opinion so long as they express it in a respectful manner. You should probably do the same.

 

[Kanga Commando]

There's no need to play the man. Its funny how people get triggered and go on the attack when there really isn't a provocational tone to the OP. If anything the thread is a tribute to one of our club champions and my opinion (take note that I tagged it as an "opinion" thread) that perhaps there is correlation between those sorts of leaders and on-field success.

I still respect anyone with a differing opinion so long as they express it in a respectful manner. You should probably do the same.

You won‘t find them on BF. I thought you were pretty brave with your first post. Having a different opinion here is like riding Dulcify at the Melbourne cup. You will get shot eventually…..

But the best piece on winning culture i have ever seen was Russell Greene on Open Mike.

He talked about his first game that Hawks lost by one point. When he came into the change room Scott and Matthews were throwing stuff around in anger at losing. He said that was the difference with the Saints. They would have been happy to get so close. Scott & Matthews would not accept 2nd best.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Well let’s just say it’s not overly apparent right now. I feel very good being in Mitchell’s hands because I know his psychology pretty well by now and I think it’s aligned with what I’m talking about but if I’m honest I don’t see strong leadership and that competitive mongrel in guys like Ward McKenzie DGB McGuinness Brockman Koschitzke Reeves and so on. I know those guys are super young and it’s a bit harsh but the real leaders generally show signs of that character from the get go.

Lewis Day Newcombe and even Moore I have more optimism in but they still need to take it to the next level.

Couldn’t disagree more with this, listen to ward speak, watch day on the bench after he went off injured and couldn’t come out to help us win plus his will to push for goals, watch jai period - what we lack is time, that guess what, needs time.

(As a side I have seen it in Nash in recent games, since his been sub his come back with some fire)

what you don’t seem to appreciate is how hard it is to build a consistent winning culture with a team under 24 years old average that is in the midst of rebuilding and basically a full rebuild of culture and club. Whether we get to the promise land again or not, is not dependent on your concern so I’m confused why you don’t enjoy the development now? Blind Freddy knows we need to improve and that comes with drive from the core leaders and whole team.

But it’s just amazing how negative you are considering everyone knows we need more talent on the list. This team is two years in on an official rebuild and we have emerging future stars that we didn’t have two years ago, I would be bloody happy we arn’t north or Carlton, because it is evident we have a core contingent that is pushing for the ultimate success and I can’t think of many players on the list that are just picking up a paycheque knowing they will never win a flag compared to some clubs…

 

[tommyk72]

Will Day.

Start watching him mate.

Even Bucks said as much today.

Rubbish. He can't be that serious if his hair is that long.

 

[Roddy]

When we’re contending again in a few years, I’m going to look back on this type of short-sighted nonsense and just LMFAO….

 

[seysearles]

When we’re contending again in a few years, I’m going to look back on this type of short-sighted nonsense and just LMFAO….

The fact that you admit that your mind will be on this thread while we are contending says a lot more about your mind than the thread.

 

[TazHawk15]

The fact that you admit that your mind will be on this thread while we are contending says a lot more about your mind than the thread.

You are only saying that because you started the thread.

Seriously you start a thread about “Creating a culture of success” at the MOST successful club of the last half a century, I can’t get my head around it.

Maybe head over to the Saints board and post it there and it would make perfect sense.

Only a couple of weeks ago Dermie was asked about our rebuild and said something along the lines of “The Hawks will rebuild and be successful again because it’s in their DNA”

 

[Accipiter]

Not sure who you’re referring to but I attended 100’s of games between 1991 and 2008 out in the rain and cold at Waverley park supporting the club during a pretty depressing and uninspiring 17yrs of football that a lot of supporters might not have stuck fat through. Then in 2001 and 2004 we hit the jackpot by doing exactly what I’m calling for, recruiting a core of obsessively driven guys that set the standards and held everyone else to account. It’s a formula that you see time and time again in great teams. Barrassi’s Melbourne, Matthew’s Hawthorn, Voss’s Brisbane, Carey’s North, Selwood’s Geelong, Hodge’s Hawthorn. These are all dynastic clubs and they were all lead by high energy alpha males that set standards.

Got to say that I admire this - common sense says there would be some that you missed but geez love that commitment to the brown and gold.

 

[SJT76]

I thought Sam etc had come out a few times to describe the mental attributes they look for in the draft, including being self-driven.

There’s no way that kids come in to a professional environment already being the fittest on the list (Ward, Long, Weddle) without significant drive.

Or DGB’s mad-as-a-hatter attack on the ball.

And so on. There is a void left by BigBoy, Shiels, Gunston, Mitchell, O’Meara that may take some time to fill, but I think it’s just the guys that are on the list finding their voice, confidence and place.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Building a culture of success starts with the leaders of the club. To have great leaders that set the standards you need both coaches and players bought in. But with a young side the would-be leaders need some time to come into their own, which they will do over time.

It didn't just happen for our great three-peat side in the early days either, it was something that was developed.

If you go to training, even last pre-season (prior to the 2022 season), there were a few youngsters that were notably acting as leaders on the track.

Someone like Lewis, who I imagine no one would have picked as being a potential leader, was barking at players and directing movement in the simulations. He has been extremely vocal at trainings.

From everything we have heard and seen from Ward and Mackenzie to date (Ward in particular) we have two extremely hard trainers that are diligent leaders at the junior level. I think that will translate to AFL level after a few years.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

We're a seriously young side at the moment which makes the next 2-3 years fascinating. 1-7 with a percentage of 60 is awful but I'm willing to not panic if we continue to get better. This season is going to be a really long one, but I hope in 2 years time we have come a hell of a long way.

One thing I'll say is our past glory will have nothing to do with any potential future glory, Essendon and Carlton 2 of the most successful clubs in the league have now been dogshit for 25 years and 30 years respectively. We need to be ruthless and make good choices, the old Hawthorn will win again it's in our DNA won't mean shit.

 

[Brishawk]

We're a seriously young side at the moment which makes the next 2-3 years fascinating. 1-7 with a percentage of 60 is awful but I'm willing to not panic if we continue to get better. This season is going to be a really long one, but I hope in 2 years time we have come a hell of a long way.

One thing I'll say is our past glory will have nothing to do with any potential future glory, Essendon and Carlton 2 of the most successful clubs in the league have now been dogshit for 25 years and 30 years respectively. We need to be ruthless and make good choices, the old Hawthorn will win again it's in our DNA won't mean s**t.

Of course past performance influences future performance. Carlton’s past performance was founded in buying players. That ain’t an option anymore so they suck. Bombers flushed their culture down the toilet during the doping saga and haven’t recovered. Saints permanently satisfied with mediocrity. That stems from a lack of success in the past. Culture isn’t permanent and it can be destroyed but it sure as shit helps to have had past success when you are trying for the next success. Just to know it is possible if nothing else. But yeah, the current players have to get the job done and hard decisions should be made. Those decisions are easier when you know there will be a pay off for it.

 

[Flukey!]

It helps that we have Mitchell and Hale as coaches and leaders at the club.

Both were there for the threepeat and both know what it will take to be successful again.

 

[seysearles]

Will Day.

Start watching him mate.

Even Bucks said as much today.

View attachment _hawthornfc 2023-05-11T093647.mov

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Not sure who you’re referring to but I attended 100’s of games between 1991 and 2008 out in the rain and cold at Waverley park supporting the club during a pretty depressing and uninspiring 17yrs of football that a lot of supporters might not have stuck fat through. Then in 2001 and 2004 we hit the jackpot by doing exactly what I’m calling for, recruiting a core of obsessively driven guys that set the standards and held everyone else to account. It’s a formula that you see time and time again in great teams. Barrassi’s Melbourne, Matthew’s Hawthorn, Voss’s Brisbane, Carey’s North, Selwood’s Geelong, Hodge’s Hawthorn. These are all dynastic clubs and they were all lead by high energy alpha males that set standards.

Minor point for the record Selwood's Geelong didn't win a flag in the first 10 years of his captaincy.

Ling and Harley were the premiership captains of their elite period.

I think this is what I'm getting at. Selwood is the poster boy of alpha stuff that has the commentators frothing - but it was the silly orange haired idiot that actually led them to a premiership within 2 seasons after the clear-speaking, not-very-masculine Tom Harley that had captained 2 flags in the three seasons prior.

I think it's totally fine to love these alpha guys, that do seriously hard things. As a fan it's awesome to see and really gets the blood pumping. I loved seeing Roughy destroy Hannebery in the 2012 grand final for example. I love seeing all that stuff too. But I'm not attributing success to sides that do that. And I think all the stories of players being shitty at each other after a loss etc is just theatre. I played a high level of sport and the best players were a mix of those over-emotional "throw the toys" types and hyper-focused, calm, high performers.

Yes - successful teams always have a bunch that set standards and hold everyone to account.
No - I don't think it requires the captain to be a Hodge, or Selwood or Voss type.

 

[KermitJagger]

Yes - successful teams always have a bunch that set standards and hold everyone to account.
No - I don't think it requires the captain to be a Hodge, or Selwood or Voss type.

Much less so now. Cotchin is the most recent multiple premiership captain, and despite being a pretty tough bloke on the field he wasn't a particularly great leader. Richmond really spread the load.

 

[seysearles]

Minor point for the record Selwood's Geelong didn't win a flag in the first 10 years of his captaincy.

Ling and Harley were the premiership captains of their elite period.

I think this is what I'm getting at. Selwood is the poster boy of alpha stuff that has the commentators frothing - but it was the silly orange haired idiot that actually led them to a premiership within 2 seasons after the clear-speaking, not-very-masculine Tom Harley that had captained 2 flags in the three seasons prior.

I think it's totally fine to love these alpha guys, that do seriously hard things. As a fan it's awesome to see and really gets the blood pumping. I loved seeing Roughy destroy Hannebery in the 2012 grand final for example. I love seeing all that stuff too. But I'm not attributing success to sides that do that. And I think all the stories of players being shitty at each other after a loss etc is just theatre. I played a high level of sport and the best players were a mix of those over-emotional "throw the toys" types and hyper-focused, calm, high performers.

Yes - successful teams always have a bunch that set standards and hold everyone to account.
No - I don't think it requires the captain to be a Hodge, or Selwood or Voss type.

What a nice balanced reply. One that genuinely makes me rethink my premise.

Its true that some of my opinion could be influenced by the effect that those sorts of players have on me personally.

Think about Matthews taking out the post. Brereton taking that mark and kicking the goal in the 89 grand final. Dipper with two Geelong players in a headlock or putting his body on the line to take the hit from Ablett. Hodge grabbing Smith by the scruff of the neck in the 2013gf when he was celebrating his goal as though we were already home.

These are reasons I go to the football and make me love the game as much as I do. I'm passionate and seeing those outward displays of passion and commitment coming from your players is just a beautiful thing. I admit that a lot of it is probably optics but I would argue those optics have an positive impact, not just on me as a supporter, but on the entire squad.

 

[parsons nose]

I agree with the idea that your captain doesn’t necessarily have to be an alpha male. Crawf was a great captain, but hardly an alpha male. Good captains come in all shapes and sizes- one common denominator is they command the respect of their teammates. Additionally, a club can choose the wrong person to be captain. I’m not convinced that the playing group is the right cohort to be selecting the captain, either. If we haven’t already moved away from this method of selecting a captain, we should.