Cummins Overrated?

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Great game with bat and ball. Sets the tone and stands up when it really counts.

There are still genuine concerns about his in-game decision making and field settings. Gets far too defensive too soon. Our use of deep point and cover today was ridiculous.

If we were to lose Lyon tomorrow, I am really concerned about how the next spinner would be brought on. My fear is Cummins would take the defensive approach of Ponting, and we would end up churning and burning several.
 
Is going to go down as one of the all time greats. His numbers are great but they still don't show the full story.

He takes so many huge wickets, he breaks partnerships as good as just about anyone i have ever seen. When the ball is doing nothing and the game is drifting away he just finds a way.

With the bat the amount of times he has saved us is ridiculous. Time and time again across multiple formats he has saved/won us games with the bat.
 
Black Diamond said:
Great game with bat and ball. Sets the tone and stands up when it really counts.

There are still genuine concerns about his in-game decision making and field settings. Gets far too defensive too soon. Our use of deep point and cover today was ridiculous.

If we were to lose Lyon tomorrow, I am really concerned about how the next spinner would be brought on. My fear is Cummins would take the defensive approach of Ponting, and we would end up churning and burning several.
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Surely Lyon know his own game right now so set his own field which is usually defensive and Murphy has done well under Cummins.
 
ABAB said:
Surely Lyon know his own game right now so set his own field which is usually defensive and Murphy has done well under Cummins.
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Lyon knows his own game well and that is why it is ok for him. Younger players cannot demand their own fields the same way.

Murphy did well under Cummins in India, but that was also in games we were thrashed in. Murphy in England under Cummins was not very good and that was because of the fields set.
 
Black Diamond said:
Great game with bat and ball. Sets the tone and stands up when it really counts.

There are still genuine concerns about his in-game decision making and field settings. Gets far too defensive too soon. Our use of deep point and cover today was ridiculous.

If we were to lose Lyon tomorrow, I am really concerned about how the next spinner would be brought on. My fear is Cummins would take the defensive approach of Ponting, and we would end up churning and burning several.
Click to expand...
Feels like there's a lot of analytics at play with our field settings

Restricting boundaries aka preventing "splash plays"

Singles don't lose us the game whereas a destructive batter getting to hit 4s and keep the strike hurts you

Presumably there's some numbers behind what we are doing.

I do find it amazing though that we'll have fielders back even when a batter first comes to the crease
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Feels like there's a lot of analytics at play with our field settings

Restricting boundaries aka preventing "splash plays"

Singles don't lose us the game whereas a destructive batter getting to hit 4s and keep the strike hurts you

Presumably there's some numbers behind what we are doing.

I do find it amazing though that we'll have fielders back even when a batter first comes to the crease
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Exactly. Prep is very thorough but there is rarely a backup plan beyond defence and no agility if it doesn't go our way.
 
Pat isn't the tactical captain like Clarke or Taylor, but I remember Ponting being panned for a lack of imagination a lot (which probably showed less given he could throw the ball to McGrath or Warne until 06).

But **** me if he isn't the most come with me boys captain i've ever seen.
 

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Black Diamond said:
Lyon knows his own game well and that is why it is ok for him. Younger players cannot demand their own fields the same way.

Murphy did well under Cummins in India, but that was also in games we were thrashed in. Murphy in England under Cummins was not very good and that was because of the fields set.
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I thought Murphy held his own at The Oval.

He wasn't used well at Headingley, though.

I do think that Cummins the captain has numerous faults: he doesn't always trust his instincts and sometimes errs on the conservative side RE declarations and field placings (when he trusts his instincts, his field placings can be pretty clever).

I don't really blame him for Brisbane because we were a bowler down, but his bowling plans during that Reddy/Washington partnership were sometimes perplexing.

Luckily, he became much more aggressive after that Pant dismissal, and unlike
Tim Paine he uses his fifth/sixth bowler pretty well.
 
DaRick said:
I thought Murphy held his own at The Oval.

He wasn't used well at Headingley, though.

I do think that Cummins the captain has numerous faults: he doesn't always trust his instincts and sometimes errs on the conservative side RE declarations and field placings (when he trusts his instincts, his field placings can be pretty clever).

I don't really blame him for Brisbane because we were a bowler down, but his bowling plans during that Reddy/Washington partnership were sometimes perplexing.

Luckily, he became much more aggressive after that Pant dismissal, and unlike
Tim Paine he uses his fifth/sixth bowler pretty well.
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I don't blame him for the Brisbane result either. That was just bad luck for him and the team.

I guess my main question is about his instincts. Is he not trusting them, or are his instincts to be defensive early? At this stage it looks like the latter.
 
Black Diamond said:
I don't blame him for the Brisbane result either. That was just bad luck for him and the team.

I guess my main question is about his instincts. Is he not trusting them, or are his instincts to be defensive early? At this stage it looks like the latter.
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Some of his captaincy during The Ashes, and our tendency to bowl short crap to the tail (notably not today, though) suggests the former, since he was obviously sticking to pre-conceived plans.

I do sometimes see an argument for the latter though (sending ENG in at The Oval so they couldn't chase down our target), but that's slightly different from in-game management.
 
Iceman! said:
Is going to go down as one of the all time greats. His numbers are great but they still don't show the full story.

He takes so many huge wickets, he breaks partnerships as good as just about anyone i have ever seen. When the ball is doing nothing and the game is drifting away he just finds a way.

With the bat the amount of times he has saved us is ridiculous. Time and time again across multiple formats he has saved/won us games with the bat.
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MOTM debut game, hit winning runs

Brisbane Ashes 2017, batted with Smith to help get a first inning lead which was crucial

Similarly, Lords 2023 batting with Smith

This match, of course

Birmingham 2023, of course

Christchurch 2024

And that’s not to mention games where his efforts were huge, but the side didn’t quite win, eg
Bangladesh Mirpur 2017 scoring 25 and 33*
Adelaide 2018 vs India scoring 28 off 121, falling just short in the chase
Brisbane 2024 vs WI scoring 64*

And that’s not to mention limited overs games, including but not exclusive to:
Wankhede 2024 batting with Maxy for his 200
WC Semi final 2024 batting with Starc to chase home the runs
Clubbing 37 off 14 against NZ in WC to help the total to 389, which was just enough

Etc etc
 
Think he’s an incredible player and leader. One of the best leaders by example a la Graham Smith or Steve Waugh that I’ve seen.

I did find it almost odd though reading some comments yesterday saying he got things spot on with his timing/non-decision to declare though - that’s a very subjective or revisionist look back at things. I still don’t feel like he has a lot of instinct for those little things like timing etc and like Waugh at certain stages and definitely Ponting, it’s the personnel and match situation that has helped rather than the decision itself.

Being realistic, some more judicious batting from Pant and Jaiswal and Australia probably end up cursing the fact that they didn’t leave themselves more time to take the wickets.

I guess on the flip side of that he was criticised for being proactive in Brisbane last year and declaring behind the Windies 9-down to have a go at them under lights and ultimately losing by a few runs so I can understand that it is a double edged sword
 
PhatBoy said:
Think he’s an incredible player and leader. One of the best leaders by example a la Graham Smith or Steve Waugh that I’ve seen.

I did find it almost odd though reading some comments yesterday saying he got things spot on with his timing/non-decision to declare though - that’s a very subjective or revisionist look back at things. I still don’t feel like he has a lot of instinct for those little things like timing etc and like Waugh at certain stages and definitely Ponting, it’s the personnel and match situation that has helped rather than the decision itself.

Being realistic, some more judicious batting from Pant and Jaiswal and Australia probably end up cursing the fact that they didn’t leave themselves more time to take the wickets.

I guess on the flip side of that he was criticised for being proactive in Brisbane last year and declaring behind the Windies 9-down to have a go at them under lights and ultimately losing by a few runs so I can understand that it is a double edged sword
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Declarations are mostly viewed with 20/20 hindsight, particularly 3rd-4th innings. Win and you were right, draw and you were conservative, lose and you were wrong.
 
Coops93 said:
He really lifts when the team needs him and takes the big wickets or the clutch runs.

If he comes in at 7 for 450 he's little chance to get runs. 7 for 120 and he'll dig in and get some important runs or even steer the team home. Same bowling, if it's 5-60 he might take 1 wicket while the other guys pile on the wickets. But if it's getting tight late or there's a big partnership then he's basically a lock to take the big wickets to break the game open. Happens time and again.
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Did both in this game, multiple times. Clutch.
 
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Great player but I still have reservations about his captaincy and tactics

reckon when he gets tired coming in to his 3rd or 4th spell...and when things go against the side ..think he struggles

i still would prefer a batter in the top four as the captain ..and let pat just concentrate soley on his game /bowling
 
I think the tactics stuff is impacted heavily by our wicket taking options with the older ball.

In yesteryear we had Warne and could attack. Men around the bat, look to take wickets. Attack with the new ball then attack with Warne. Evidence of good, aggressive captaincy.

Now? Sometimes Lyon but usually we are trying to hold ground through the middle overs. Peg away, stay in the game. Very orthodox fields, defensive, limit boundaries.

That's not a reflection on the captaincy itself necessarily, more on the bowling options available.
 
Westend said:
Great player but I still have reservations about his captaincy and tactics

reckon when he gets tired coming in to his 3rd or 4th spell...and when things go against the side ..think he struggles

i still would prefer a batter in the top four as the captain ..and let pat just concentrate soley on his game /bowling
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If he was to resign tomorrow, who takes over?
 

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