Scape Goat Daniel Jackson

[tigerdan]

On Sunday we saw what happens when we play enough midfielders with big bodies and a side with enough run - anyone who wants to take away from that for next year by trading key elements of our growing capacity to compete is a fool of the highest order.

A fool of the highest order would pay Jackson any more than about 100k a year. He does not deserve more than that. Spend the money on guys that have talent, and who are going to improve. Not on generic spuds of dubious value to the side.

He's only getting a game because he is not a stringbean. Jackson has played his part in protecting the kids, but he's just not good enough and next year any one of our kids will be big enough to not need his 'protection' anymore. And when that happens, Jackson wont be able to get a game.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Whats this role he plays that is so important...

You don't know what he does, but you have such a firm opinion about his value?

A fool of the highest order would pay Jackson any more than about 100k a year.

You're either hopelessly out of touch with average player wages, or such an extreme Jackson hater you're beyond help.

He does not deserve more than that. Spend the money on guys that have talent, and who are going to improve. Not on generic spuds of dubious value to the side.

Hardwick has said he's amongst the first picked, he's backed that up by picking him injured much of the year, he's in the leadership group, so I guess he doesn't agree with you as to Jackson's lack of value to the team.

As for his form, I think it's very hard to make a case that Foley has been as good over the season, Cotchin and Martin have really showed their youth with some awesome displays of talent, but they've also mixed that with lazy, dumb, careless football at times and both have clearly shown that they need support and a steadying influence, not to have the leadership and fate of the entire club thrust on their young shoulders too fully and too early.

Jackson has very much become an on-field general to the younger players and he is infinitely more important to us than you and some others imagine. Every time a combination of he or Tuck or Graham is out over the last two years, our form plummets because our teeth are gone. It's been a true pleasure to watch Tuck and Jackson catching opposition onballers in 'the pincer' again and crush them (there was an awesome overhead shot of it on the weekend), rather than Jackson forming one half of the pincer and wide open spaces on the other side.

Jackson has played his part in protecting the kids, but he's just not good enough and next year any one of our kids will be big enough to not need his 'protection' anymore. And when that happens, Jackson wont be able to get a game.

You have fundamental flaws in your knowledge of player capacity and of our list. Martin and Cotchin are dead tired and have been for weeks, both came into football with a better physique for it than Conca, so why would Conca magically be able to play 22+ hard full games as a midfielder next year? Half a dozen this year has knocked the poor kid out of the seniors from fatigue and soreness. Batchelor has a great physique and enormous promise, but he's not getting out of the back half to displace a genuine mid any time soon, nor is Dea. Helbig is half a decade off, Contin's seemingly nowhere, Hislop's gone and maybe Nason and Webberley will be lucky to survive, Connors is nowhere and Morton with him, Grigg has way more flaws than Tuck or Jackson, Houli is our next 'quarter-back' - just where exactly are you going to pull a finals competitive midfield from in seasons to come without hoping like hell Jackson and Tuck have at least 2-3 years of really good football left between them and hopefully 6+ for Jackson?

You say all Jackson has is size, but you're apparently oblivious to the fact that players who are Jackson's size, can run all day, are aggressive, lay more tackles than anyone else, and don't let the side down too badly on the football side of things (quite the opposite in Jackson's case compared to his peers), are rare as hen's teeth. Conca and co. certainly won't be doing it at anywhere near the same level next year, or the one after that. It took Jackson himself the best part of five years to get to the ideal AFL build and stamina to truly play our four hard quarters, the only mid on our list who was comparably developed athletically when first drafted is Martin, the rest are well behind where Jackson started. Some blokes like Edwards will never get there.

If you think any juniors we have are going to fill his boots in the next year or two and give us the extra genuinely good mids we need, you're going to be very disappointed.

 

[Rocco_S]

Good post Rayzor, and on the most part, I agree. But hypothetically, if in 4-5 seasons we're running out for a grand final (which is the plan) I don't think Jackson is out there. I love how he has a crack, I love his energy, and he's one of the fittest and hard-working players at our club. They are all fantastic qualities, no one can deny that.

However, he has shown time and time again, that he makes stupid decisions, gets over stimulated and turns the footy over with his disposal. He isn't the only one, but after the amount of time he's had in the system, we need better from a midfielder that's one of the first picked each week.

 

[Haggard H]

For some reason or another (generally just ignorance) most posters in here think that premiership sides are made of 22 superstars. Just isn't the case.

Jacko is an equal or better footballer than

2010: Toovey, Johnson, Dawes, Goldsack, McCaffer, L. Brown
2009: Wojinski, Mooney, Rooke, Hawkins, Byrnes, Blake.
2008: Guerra, Osborne, Williams, Campbell, Renouf, Gilham, Dew
2007: Hunt, Wojinski, Mooney, N. Ablett, Byrnes, Rooke
2006:Fletcher, B. Jones, Stenglein, Hansen, R. Jones, Armstrong
2005: Mathews, LRT, Dempster, Buchanan, L. Ablett, Bevan, Fosdike
etc,etc,etc

and is well worth keeping for a reasonable wage. If he's going to be offered 500k from GWS then he'd be crazy not to go, but otherwise I don't see why there's a thread to bag the crap out a handy player who busts a gut for this club every week.

 

[peejay]

i must be one of only a few that still has time for DJ.

 

[Haggard H]

i must be one of only a few that still has time for DJ.

Because you're one of only a few that still has time to think.

 

[Rocco_S]

and is well worth keeping for a reasonable wage. If he's going to be offered 500k from GWS then he'd be crazy not to go, but otherwise I don't see why there's a thread to bag the crap out a handy player who busts a gut for this club every week.

My intention wasn't to "bag the crap" out of him. I too would keep him for a reasonable wage. The thread is based on Barrett's report on the Footy Show last week being true (which I agree should not be taken as gospel). If you missed it, in a nutshell he said; The Richmond Football Club and Daniel Jackson are "miles apart" from reaching a new contract agreement and that Jackson was asking for considerably more money than we are prepared to offer. I've never met DJ, however it wouldn't surprise me if he was just a little too big for his boots.

 

[tigerdan]

You don't know what he does, but you have such a firm opinion about his value?



You're either hopelessly out of touch with average player wages, or such an extreme Jackson hater you're beyond help.



Hardwick has said he's amongst the first picked, he's backed that up by picking him injured much of the year, he's in the leadership group, so I guess he doesn't agree with you as to Jackson's lack of value to the team.

As for his form, I think it's very hard to make a case that Foley has been as good over the season, Cotchin and Martin have really showed their youth with some awesome displays of talent, but they've also mixed that with lazy, dumb, careless football at times and both have clearly shown that they need support and a steadying influence, not to have the leadership and fate of the entire club thrust on their young shoulders too fully and too early.

Jackson has very much become an on-field general to the younger players and he is infinitely more important to us than you and some others imagine. Every time a combination of he or Tuck or Graham is out over the last two years, our form plummets because our teeth are gone. It's been a true pleasure to watch Tuck and Jackson catching opposition onballers in 'the pincer' again and crush them (there was an awesome overhead shot of it on the weekend), rather than Jackson forming one half of the pincer and wide open spaces on the other side.



You have fundamental flaws in your knowledge of player capacity and of our list. Martin and Cotchin are dead tired and have been for weeks, both came into football with a better physique for it than Conca, so why would Conca magically be able to play 22+ hard full games as a midfielder next year? Half a dozen this year has knocked the poor kid out of the seniors from fatigue and soreness. Batchelor has a great physique and enormous promise, but he's not getting out of the back half to displace a genuine mid any time soon, nor is Dea. Helbig is half a decade off, Contin's seemingly nowhere, Hislop's gone and maybe Nason and Webberley will be lucky to survive, Connors is nowhere and Morton with him, Grigg has way more flaws than Tuck or Jackson, Houli is our next 'quarter-back' - just where exactly are you going to pull a finals competitive midfield from in seasons to come without hoping like hell Jackson and Tuck have at least 2-3 years of really good football left between them and hopefully 6+ for Jackson?

You say all Jackson has is size, but you're apparently oblivious to the fact that players who are Jackson's size, can run all day, are aggressive, lay more tackles than anyone else, and don't let the side down too badly on the football side of things (quite the opposite in Jackson's case compared to his peers), are rare as hen's teeth. Conca and co. certainly won't be doing it at anywhere near the same level next year, or the one after that. It took Jackson himself the best part of five years to get to the ideal AFL build and stamina to truly play our four hard quarters, the only mid on our list who was comparably developed athletically when first drafted is Martin, the rest are well behind where Jackson started. Some blokes like Edwards will never get there.

If you think any juniors we have are going to fill his boots in the next year or two and give us the extra genuinely good mids we need, you're going to be very disappointed.

Don't talk to me about fundamental flaws in knowledge or being beyond help, Rayzor.

Firstly, I am not a Jackson hater. The last Richmond player I hated was Daffy, and that was because he was a prat.

I just don't think Jackson is any bloody good. If you think we should keep (in fact, reward) a guy who is mid paced, mid skilled (at best) and mid height then go for it. Aggressive? Pah. King is Aggressive. Jackson just gets frustrated and does something stupid. Endurance? Big deal. That's what the bench is for.

But don't confuse the reason why he's picked. It's simply because (IMHO) we have no-one better to put there right now (becuase the kids are *currently* not physically up to it), not because he's a gun, or even 'good'. And that is a very important distinction. Who cares if he's one of the first picked? That is a throwaway line that means nothing and you should know that. Speaking of throwaway lines, so is 'onfield general'. How can you actually prove, or qantify, that (short of being in the team yourself)?

By all means we should move mountains to keep Cothcin and Martin, because they are real talents. And I do hope you are not putting Jackson in the bracket because he is so far out of their league it is not funny.

Don't try to back up your argument by dragging Foley into this. It has nothing to do with him. Foley is out of form. But, and this is very important, Foley has more talent than Jackson and surely you are not denying this. By all means drop Foley if he is out of form, but don't put them in the same bracket as to value to the team. And at the end of the day, Jackson should be paid according to his value to the team (which will become less and less, as he does not have the talent to justify an increase).

As for Tuck, he has his own flaws but I would rather he play the role Jackson has been playing to be honest (being played at expense of more talented but less develpoed kids). I think it was a mistake to leave Tuck out of the team so long this year but that's a moot point.

At the end of the day Jackson's value to the team is going to diminsh, starting from round 1 next year (because he will rapidly see his spot in the team under threat). We need to save our $ for players who we need to prevent from defecting, not rewarding players of limited talent and limited value to the team. If that makes me a Jackson hater in your eyes, so be it.

 

[Dustin Credible]

i must be one of only a few that still has time for DJ.

+1

Has for some reason become the whipping boy.

 

[doddy87]

Look im all for not holding the club at ransom and paying the player what thye are worth but Jackson is and has been a very good player for this club... anyone that says otherwise doesnt watch us very closely

 

[Rayzorwire]

Firstly, I am not a Jackson hater.

So you must just be way out of touch with player wages then?

As for the fundamental flaws in player knowledge which I pointed out, you haven't actually addressed any of the points I made - key among which is who do you think is actually going to replace Jackson? I listed the options, you tell me. How will our kids magically compress the 3-5 seasons of body growth and conditioning down into just a season or two so they can replace Jackson?

Speaking of throwaway lines, so is 'onfield general'. How can you actually prove, or qantify, that (short of being in the team yourself)?

You do watch our games, right? Jackson is always directing players where to be in the centre, changing match-ups, and this year seems to have license to go to whichever mid he feels like, on at least some occasions. Several times on the weekend he swapped opponents only a second or two before the ball was bounced at an around the ground stoppage. Generals direct troops on where to be and what to do, that's exactly what Jackson does every game and presumably it's part of his role with the leadership group.

Foley has more talent than Jackson and surely you are not denying this.

Foley's a very one-dimensional player and in many respects it has always made him less valuable than players like Jackson, Tuck, Cotchin and Martin who could play anywhere on the ground. Foley hasn't shown more talent than Jackson this year and what he may have done in the past is about as relevant to our future as Mark Coughlan's undeniable talent and terrific past form. He needs to be a clearance machine, a ball magnet, good defensively, and help us more than harm us with his ball use. I don't think he achieved an acceptable enough level on any of these criteria to be a first rotation mid this season. If he can't improve on what he did this year then his spot's in far more jeopardy than Jackson's, because there's nowhere else on the ground you can play him.

I hope that like many players coming back from such extensive injury, he improves quite a bit more with another pre-season under his belt and time for the body to settle again, but I'll be rating him on output in the present, not nostalgia or reputation.

 

[ize_]

For some reason or another (generally just ignorance) most posters in here think that premiership sides are made of 22 superstars. Just isn't the case.

Jacko is an equal or better footballer than

2010: Toovey, Johnson, Dawes, Goldsack, McCaffer, L. Brown
2009: Wojinski, Mooney, Rooke, Hawkins, Byrnes, Blake.
2008: Guerra, Osborne, Williams, Campbell, Renouf, Gilham, Dew
2007: Hunt, Wojinski, Mooney, N. Ablett, Byrnes, Rooke
2006:Fletcher, B. Jones, Stenglein, Hansen, R. Jones, Armstrong
2005: Mathews, LRT, Dempster, Buchanan, L. Ablett, Bevan, Fosdike
etc,etc,etc

and is well worth keeping for a reasonable wage. If he's going to be offered 500k from GWS then he'd be crazy not to go, but otherwise I don't see why there's a thread to bag the crap out a handy player who busts a gut for this club every week.

Is by no means better than those in bold. Jackson is fine for now, but won't be part of long term plans I wouldn't have thought. Does his part so that younger, flashier players can shine and I think that's admirable. Dusty and Cotch would not have enjoyed the seasons they have were it not for Jacko, anyone who can't see that is kidding themselves.

 

[rammbo]

For some reason or another (generally just ignorance) most posters in here think that premiership sides are made of 22 superstars. Just isn't the case.

Jacko is an equal or better footballer than

2010: Toovey, Johnson, Dawes, Goldsack, McCaffer, L. Brown
2009: Wojinski, Mooney, Rooke, Hawkins, Byrnes, Blake.
2008: Guerra, Osborne, Williams, Campbell, Renouf, Gilham, Dew
2007: Hunt, Wojinski, Mooney, N. Ablett, Byrnes, Rooke
2006:Fletcher, B. Jones, Stenglein, Hansen, R. Jones, Armstrong
2005: Mathews, LRT, Dempster, Buchanan, L. Ablett, Bevan, Fosdike
etc,etc,etc

and is well worth keeping for a reasonable wage. If he's going to be offered 500k from GWS then he'd be crazy not to go, but otherwise I don't see why there's a thread to bag the crap out a handy player who busts a gut for this club every week.

He would b inthe bottom 5 of that list i would reckon.

 

[Tigerbob]

LMFAO !!

Seeyaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's the door Jackson, your a shit player anyway.

My thoughts exactly.

Get him out of our club.

 

[Livonski]

For some reason or another (generally just ignorance) most posters in here think that premiership sides are made of 22 superstars. Just isn't the case.

Jacko is an equal or better footballer than

2010: Toovey, Johnson, Dawes, Goldsack, McCaffer, L. Brown
2009: Wojinski, Mooney, Rooke, Hawkins, Byrnes, Blake.
2008: Guerra, Osborne, Williams, Campbell, Renouf, Gilham, Dew
2007: Hunt, Wojinski, Mooney, N. Ablett, Byrnes, Rooke
2006:Fletcher, B. Jones, Stenglein, Hansen, R. Jones, Armstrong
2005: Mathews, LRT, Dempster, Buchanan, L. Ablett, Bevan, Fosdike
etc,etc,etc

and is well worth keeping for a reasonable wage. If he's going to be offered 500k from GWS then he'd be crazy not to go, but otherwise I don't see why there's a thread to bag the crap out a handy player who busts a gut for this club every week.

Now THAT is a great post!

Refreshing to see some facts to back up an argument rather than the usual motherhood statements.

 

[YellowandBlackBlood]

Now THAT is a great post!

Refreshing to see some facts to back up an argument rather than the usual motherhood statements.

I'm not sure what you mean by "facts"! What was given is just an opinion. To say Jackson is as good as or better than those mentioned is definately an opinion as many outside this board would not agree with you! So I personally don't think the post is that great.

 

[Azzleberry]

+1

Has for some reason become the whipping boy.

Another +1... Hasn't had a good year this year and might be carrying some kind of injury or is struggling for form... He was second in the best n fairest in 2009 and polled well last year despite missing 8 games (mainly to suspension).. Is highly regarded within the club and will get a new deal... will not be going anywhere in 2012/13 IMO..

 

[smasha]

i must be one of only a few that still has time for DJ.

I still like him.

 

[Livonski]

I'm not sure what you mean by "facts"! What was given is just an opinion. To say Jackson is as good as or better than those mentioned is definately an opinion as many outside this board would not agree with you! So I personally don't think the post is that great.

Ok, fair enough, I should have said "research" rather than "facts". But even so, IMO Jacko is ahead of many on that quite extensive list. He's not A grade but the list attached aint either.

btw heard L Matthews on radio today say the notion of ditching players because they are won't "be part of our next premiership team" is quote...crap.

That notion gets bandied around a fair bit on this board. I'm with Lethal.

 

[tigerdan]

So you must just be way out of touch with player wages then?

As for the fundamental flaws in player knowledge which I pointed out, you haven't actually addressed any of the points I made - key among which is who do you think is actually going to replace Jackson? I listed the options, you tell me. How will our kids magically compress the 3-5 seasons of body growth and conditioning down into just a season or two so they can replace Jackson?



You do watch our games, right? Jackson is always directing players where to be in the centre, changing match-ups, and this year seems to have license to go to whichever mid he feels like, on at least some occasions. Several times on the weekend he swapped opponents only a second or two before the ball was bounced at an around the ground stoppage. Generals direct troops on where to be and what to do, that's exactly what Jackson does every game and presumably it's part of his role with the leadership group.



Foley's a very one-dimensional player and in many respects it has always made him less valuable than players like Jackson, Tuck, Cotchin and Martin who could play anywhere on the ground. Foley hasn't shown more talent than Jackson this year and what he may have done in the past is about as relevant to our future as Mark Coughlan's undeniable talent and terrific past form. He needs to be a clearance machine, a ball magnet, good defensively, and help us more than harm us with his ball use. I don't think he achieved an acceptable enough level on any of these criteria to be a first rotation mid this season. If he can't improve on what he did this year then his spot's in far more jeopardy than Jackson's, because there's nowhere else on the ground you can play him.

I hope that like many players coming back from such extensive injury, he improves quite a bit more with another pre-season under his belt and time for the body to settle again, but I'll be rating him on output in the present, not nostalgia or reputation.

Don't try that juvenile straw man style of argument with me. This is not Jackson v Foley. If Foley isn't playing well enough he should be dropped. Simple.

I don't think Jackson is worth paying much because he isn't any bloody good. I want to save the money we'd waste on him (let alone give him a pay rise) by spending it on genuinely the good players on our list. Players that we run the risk of having poached. If someone wants to poach Jacko because we aren't paying him what he wants, well tough luck. Better to lose Jackson than lose Cotchin.

You ask who will play his role next year. Well it could be any one of half a dozen kids (note that kids does not necessarily mean first year players). All we need is *one* kid that has more talent to put on a bit of meat and they will boot our mid-everything trier out of the team.

But you know what? Even if none of them put on enough meat, and we have to play a hard body, i'd rather play Tuck. Tuck can butcher it, but at least he has a tendency to bang it on his boot. I'd rather that than have Jackson continue to dither with it and see all the holes get filled up by the time he decides who to kick it to.

As for your 'general' comment... Any player can do that. We obviously have different concepts of what a general does.

 

[YellowandBlackBlood]

Ok, fair enough, I should have said "research" rather than "facts". But even so, IMO Jacko is ahead of many on that quite extensive list. He's not A grade but the list attached aint either.

btw heard L Matthews on radio today say the notion of ditching players because they are won't "be part of our next premiership team" is quote...crap.

That notion gets bandied around a fair bit on this board. I'm with Lethal.

I agree with Lethal as well. I'm not sure that is what we are arguing here. Jackson wants more money and many here suspect he is not worth more. He is an ok player but not a great one. Does he deserve more money or should we just say this is what we think you are worth? I think the latter is much more sustainable for the club. If he doesn't like what is offered he is free to leave.

 

[Rayzorwire]

This is not Jackson v Foley.

Then why on earth did you invite me to directly compare their respective values in your last post?

Foley has more talent than Jackson and surely you are not denying this.

I assumed that the above *should* end with a question mark...was I mistaken?

You ask who will play his role next year. Well it could be any one of half a dozen kids (note that kids does not necessarily mean first year players). All we need is *one* kid that has more talent to put on a bit of meat and they will boot our mid-everything trier out of the team.

It's not just body bulk, if you go too far on that in one pre-season you run the very real risk of giving a player a year like the one Astbury is having.

There's not 100 Daniel Jackson's running around in the VFL, available to boost AFL sides like ours any given year, or any Daniel Jackson's in waiting just a year or two away already on our list, quite simply because it's very difficult to do what he does and it takes several years of training and conditioning.

You've more than made your point that you don't appreciate or recognise these facts.

 

[MR]

He was bloody stupid this week. Gave away 5 free kicks, especially one in the centre bounce which was at a crucial time.

 

[Livonski]

I agree with Lethal as well. I'm not sure that is what we are arguing here. Jackson wants more money and many here suspect he is not worth more. He is an ok player but not a great one. Does he deserve more money or should we just say this is what we think you are worth? I think the latter is much more sustainable for the club. If he doesn't like what is offered he is free to leave.

Yep, pay him what he's worth, no premium to stay, like you would a Dusty or Cotch. And after THAT free kick AGAIN today I reckon he'll do a Maxwell Smart.

"I hope I wasn't out of line with that demand for more money".

 

[tigerdan]

Then why on earth did you invite me to directly compare their respective values in your last post?

I assumed that the above *should* end with a question mark...was I mistaken?



It's not just body bulk, if you go too far on that in one pre-season you run the very real risk of giving a player a year like the one Astbury is having.

There's not 100 Daniel Jackson's running around in the VFL, available to boost AFL sides like ours any given year, or any Daniel Jackson's in waiting just a year or two away already on our list, quite simply because it's very difficult to do what he does and it takes several years of training and conditioning.

You've more than made your point that you don't appreciate or recognise these facts.

You were the one who started talking about Foley, not me. If you think Jackson is better than Foley, go right ahead, but here's some *facts* for you: Foley, 16 career brownlow votes and 4 BOG. Jackson, 8 career brownlow votes and 1 BOG. Which is the better of the two players? Note that they have played almost the same amount of games so I am comparing like with like.

In any case, I couldn't care less about Foley, he has nothing to do with the fact that Jackson isn't any bloody good.

As for your other 'facts', they are nothing but opinions (which you are entitled to). This isn't year 9 debating.