Play Nice Derailed, (The Place to Continue Off-Topic Discussion)

[76woodenspooners]

If Mick was a better media performer he’d have come out looking better. We’d still be talking about how bad the succession plan was and how it potentially cost us another premiership.

Why would anybody think the succession plan cost us a Premiership …

… but not think that it was the succession plan won us a Premiership?

Fact: we had a succession plan. Fact: we won a Premiership. Fact: Correlation doesn’t prove causality, but it’s a much easier argument than anything about what coulda happened in parallel universes where the facts are different.

Besides, I don’t get any arguments about the succession plan costing us the 2011 Premiership. What’s to say that without the succession plan we wouldn’t have finished 6th in the 2011 season?!?!?

Regardless of how Mick behaved, we’d still be getting rid of a premiership coach during the teams window replacing him with some hone who’s barely done an assistant coaching apprenticeship who turned out to be average anyways.

But we wouldn’t have been getting rid of a Premiership coach? He would have been leaving of his own accord.

 

[Maggie5]

Regardless of how Mick behaved, we’d still be getting rid of a premiership coach during the teams window replacing him with some hone who’s barely done an assistant coaching apprenticeship who turned out to be average anyways.

I don't think the use of the words 'regardless of how Mick behaved' should be so easily discounted.

He was and still is , totally destabilized the club and supporters. Buckley had to wear it throughout his coaching and even now.

 

[sr36]

Has a lover ever seductively whispered into your ear “Lie to me and tell me you love me”?

That’s what it is to be a footy supporter. We all know diddly squat about what really goes on inside footy clubs. The only clues we get are:
(1) What happens on the footy field for a couple hours a weekends for around half the year.
(2) The Circus that goes on between the club and the media.

We reconstruct reality based on these tiny tidbits.

Do you reckon there are Richmond supporters who are banging on about how they shouldn’t have sacked Hardwick?

No.

Why not?

Because Richmond supporters believe that Hardwick needed a break and wanted to move on. Sure, maybe it’s true, and that would be helped by supporters wanting to believe that, but how would supporters really know?

When Buckley left Collingwood the official line was that it was “amicable”. The club have always stood by that. Buckley fronted up to his press conference. Buckley got to coach a farewell game (and what a glorious day that was, Queens Birthday 2021 in Sydney where we won against the overwhelming odds). The media have mostly stuck by the ’amicable’ story. Sure, none of us are under any illusion that Buckley had any choice in the matter, so he was effectively sacked. But everybody played their role. Everybody lied and said that they loved. And that made us - the supporter base - happy.

Compare Malthouse. Here we are, still banging on about this 10 years later. This could have all been avoided. Easily. All it would have taken is for Mick to say “Sorry folks, I love youse all, but I really need to take a break from this caper”. Hardwick style. And it would have avoided civil war within the Collingwood supporter base between those who are wringing their hands over how we would have been guaranteed another eleventy seven more Premierships if we’d kept him, versus those who just wanted to move on and enjoy the footy. The club played their role. But nah, Mick didn’t want to do that.

I too dream of the perfect world where we all graciously accept our bosses decisions about our future and then blatantly lie about our feelings. Glory be.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I too dream of the perfect world where we all graciously accept our bosses decisions about our future and then blatantly lie about our feelings. Glory be.

Well, there’s a very easy solution to that: graciously resign, and that way they’re not your boss anymore. (Just as Mick should have done)

 

[sr36]

Well, there’s a very easy solution to that: graciously resign, and that way they’re not your boss anymore. (Just as Mick should have done)

If you get sacked and are upset, is it a gracious resignation when you lie and claim it as a resignation that you are happy about?

The ongoing bitterness has been infantile - but good on him for fighting for his job.

 

[76woodenspooners]

If you get sacked and are upset, is it a gracious resignation when you lie and claim it as a resignation that you are happy about?

Unless you’re the owner, an organisation is bigger than any one person within it. If you have a disagreement with the organisation then you are the one in the wrong (except in situations where a higher authority is brought into play like the legal system, or regulators, etc, which we are not talking about here).

If you have an amazing plan to legally increase profits by 5x with minimal risk, but the organisation doesn’t want to do that, then you need to deal with it. Or leave.

That’s because the organisation is bigger than you - which is the whole point - Mick saw himself as bigger than Collingwood.

And we’re not talking about letting the tea lady go. Unless they’ve done something illegal or immoral, in any serious organisation a leader of people will never get overtly sacked. They will be given the option to graciously resign. Or in some cases promoted.

And besides, Mick wasn’t even sacked. The club would have happily kept him on to do the role he was contracted to do.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Are we sure MM is not one of the posters on this thread?

Let it go.....

 

[sr36]

Unless you’re the owner, an organisation is bigger than any one person within it. If you have a disagreement with the organisation then you are the one in the wrong (except in situations where a higher authority is brought into play like the legal system, or regulators, etc, which we are not talking about here).

What? Do you actually think that?

I'm going to leave it there as I'm flabbergasted.

 

[76woodenspooners]

What? Do you actually think that?

I gotta admit, I haven’t always thought that.

But a bit of experience, and having seen it from the other side has changed my mind.

Nothing more frustrating than having to deal with stupid gits who should be moved on. And what’s to say I’m not one of them? Where is the ground truth?

Yeah, you might admire Mick for fighting a good fight. But how has being a bitter old codger actually helped him?!? (Apart from endearing him to the Carlton Football club for five minutes).

It would have been better for Mick to move on.

 

[Vicky Park]

I gotta admit, I haven’t always thought that.

But a bit of experience, and having seen it from the other side has changed my mind.

Nothing more frustrating than having to deal with stupid gits who should be moved on. And what’s to say I’m not one of them? Where is the ground truth?

Yeah, you might admire Mick for fighting a good fight. But how has being a bitter old codger actually helped him?!? (Apart from endearing him to the Carlton Football club for five minutes).

It would have been better for Mick to move on.

Now that we are back onto Mick, I have found that he is one of the very few 'issues' about which we have common ground with Carlton supporters. We are united in our distaste for him, and can reach across decades of mutual loathing to hold hands in our shared hatred. I have a Carlton mate, and whenever we talk footy we always end up at 'Mick'.

 

[sr36]

I gotta admit, I haven’t always thought that.

But a bit of experience, and having seen it from the other side has changed my mind.

Nothing more frustrating than having to deal with stupid gits who should be moved on. And what’s to say I’m not one of them? Where is the ground truth?

Yeah, you might admire Mick for fighting a good fight. But how has being a bitter old codger actually helped him?!? (Apart from endearing him to the Carlton Football club for five minutes).

It would have been better for Mick to move on.

There isn't a ground truth. Each situation is different.

These are contracted blokes who don't need to be renewed - they're not the permanent employee stupid gits that it's really difficult to move on. Mick fought to continue as coach - good luck to him, but he lost the fight. I agree that the post-departure bitterness has been pitiful from Mick. But I suspect it comes from the same place that made him a successful coach. It was all about him. Us against them. Rally around Mick. Do it for Mick. And the players did.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Are we sure MM is not one of the posters on this thread?

Let it go.....

What is this, the Gabba?

Country road… take me home…

 

[Daicosian silk]

I’ve always felt that it was mainly a timing issue. If the Collingwood hierarchy had allowed Mick to continue coaching until it was clear to everyone that he was failing then no one would have had a problem with it. Even Mick. You could argue that Buckley was in some way a bit selfish for essentially demanding that he take over as head coach in 2012. If he’d simply agreed to stay on as assistant coach and wait until the senior coaching position became available then l think the fallout that continues to this day could have been avoided. Let’s say Mick had continued coaching and by say 2014 the Pies had missed the finals, it would have been far more acceptable for Mick to finish up after 15 years as head coach. Let him coach until it was clear that he was failing. As it stands he was essentially moved on after coaching the team to the last 2 grand finals. It also fractured the team because there is no doubt that he would have had strong relationships with quite a few of the players who may have resented the way he was treated

 

[Bianconeri]

Why would anybody think the succession plan cost us a Premiership …

… but not think that it was the succession plan won us a Premiership?

There’s been countless explanations given to this questions over the 12 years it’s been discussed over.

Malthouse was a good coach with a proven record. With a good list at his hands it’s reasonable to assume he could have delivered a premiership without the succession plan.

The better question is why’d I assume the succession plan had anything to do with that. All it did was stop Malthouse from coaching when the lost was still in its window.

Fact: we had a succession plan. Fact: we won a Premiership. Fact: Correlation doesn’t prove causality, but it’s a much easier argument than anything about what coulda happened in parallel universes where the facts are different.

Besides, I don’t get any arguments about the succession plan costing us the 2011 Premiership. What’s to say that without the succession plan we wouldn’t have finished 6th in the 2011 season?!?!?

I didn’t argue it cost us in 2011 although the off field distraction it provided certainly didn’t help. It cost us in the two years after when we still had a list good enough to challenge but a coach with little idea how to use it and no idea on how to galvanise the people in it.

But we wouldn’t have been getting rid of a Premiership coach? He would have been leaving of his own accord.

He was leaving because of the terms outlined in the successions plan. No amount of spin is going to change that.

 

[sr36]

What is this, the Gabba?

Country road… take me home…

I hate to admit it, as I usually hate that sort of thing, but Cameron's motorbiking revving to country road after a goal is pretty cool.

 

[Bianconeri]

I don't think the use of the words 'regardless of how Mick behaved' should be so easily discounted.

He was and still is View attachment 1764900, totally destabilized the club and supporters. Buckley had to wear it throughout his coaching and even now.

Buckley chose to wear it.

 

[No SPIN]

Buckley chose to wear it.

It shows the character and loyalty of Buckley to persist under such adversity.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm gonna put to bed the MM discussion that divides us all.

Regardless of what little we know the causes of the 'succession plan' failure, this is the end result. A succession plan failure, an opportunity lost.

A coach with zero senior experience coached a team that had just succeeded in a 20-2 win record with the highest percentage ever recorded in the competition

All the hallmarks of a dynasty team, and that is simply not up for debate

^ Think about that for a second, externally this is most unprofessional head scratcher of all time, this is akin to putting your 17yo L plater who's never driven a car before behind the wheel of an F1 car.

We're talking about the highest profile sporting organization in the country, this is amateur hour at its highest - no ifs buts or maybes.

Now we can all speculate and snipe each other as to the why's and why not's, defend or blame the succession plan and look for the architect(s) behind it with our pitch forks, jerry cans and lighters.

For mine there is no known universe that the club should've allowed this to happen.

I love this club, and if it were run like it is now at the time instead of whatever that was, we'd have more cups in the cabinet. I can never ever forgive the club for this.

 

[No SPIN]

I'm gonna put to bed the MM discussion that divides us all.

Regardless of what little we know the causes of the 'succession plan' failure, this is the end result. A succession plan failure, an opportunity lost.

A coach with zero senior experience coached a team that had just succeeded in a 20-2 win record with the highest percentage ever recorded in the competition

All the hallmarks of a dynasty team, and that is simply not up for debate

^ Think about that for a second, externally this is most unprofessional head scratcher of all time, this is akin to putting your 17yo L plater who's never driven a car before behind the wheel of an F1 car.

We're talking about the highest profile sporting organization in the country, this is amateur hour at its highest - no ifs buts or maybes.

Now we can all speculate and snipe each other as to the why's and why not's, defend or blame the succession plan and look for the architect(s) behind it with our pitch forks, jerry cans and lighters.

For mine there is no known universe that the club should've allowed this to happen.

I love this club, and if it were run like it is now at the time instead of whatever that was, we'd have more cups in the cabinet. I can never ever forgive the club for this.

20-20 hindsight makes everyone an expert!
And the succession plan gave us a flag.

I actually remember huge optimism and support here when the succession plan was announced - hailed as a perfect solution.

Not derision or howls of protest.

 

[Fat Jesus]

I'm gonna put to bed the MM discussion that divides us all.

Regardless of what little we know the causes of the 'succession plan' failure, this is the end result. A succession plan failure, an opportunity lost.

A coach with zero senior experience coached a team that had just succeeded in a 20-2 win record with the highest percentage ever recorded in the competition

All the hallmarks of a dynasty team, and that is simply not up for debate

^ Think about that for a second, externally this is most unprofessional head scratcher of all time, this is akin to putting your 17yo L plater who's never driven a car before behind the wheel of an F1 car.

We're talking about the highest profile sporting organization in the country, this is amateur hour at its highest - no ifs buts or maybes.

Now we can all speculate and snipe each other as to the why's and why not's, defend or blame the succession plan and look for the architect(s) behind it with our pitch forks, jerry cans and lighters.

For mine there is no known universe that the club should've allowed this to happen.

I love this club, and if it were run like it is now at the time instead of whatever that was, we'd have more cups in the cabinet. I can never ever forgive the club for this.

I blame Ed. Terrible decision amongst many others he did.
MM should have got an extra couple of years and told to help with the rebuild of the side before handing the reigns to Buckley.

Great coach was MM although his control of power was at times sickening as was Ed.

 

[Carringbush2010]

20-20 hindsight makes everyone an expert!
And the succession plan gave us a flag.

I actually remember huge optimism and support here when the succession plan was announced - hailed as a perfect solution.

Not derision or howls of protest.

But you don't have proof of this, no one does, you're just speculating to defend the decision because the reality is too hard to swallow 'oh the succession plan sent a rocket up Micks bum, that's why we won the flag'

What we do know is putting a totally green coach to lead such a team is likely to fail, and it did, and the club allowed it.

No one can argue the above sentence.

'You remember optimism' I don't, and personally I could see disaster coming and when we won the flag after the announcement it softened the blow and then the likelihood happened.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I blame Ed. Terrible decision amongst many others he did.
MM should have got an extra couple of years and told to help with the rebuild of the side before handing the reigns to Buckley.

Great coach was MM although his control of power was at times sickening as was Ed.

Mick should have honoured the extra few years he had on his contract. Gallivanted around the planet with Nanette on the club’s dime visiting other comps and bringing learnings back.

Be that experienced head to support Buckley and the team when McCarthy died ahead of the 2012 Prelim final.

Surely we would have won Premierships if he’d done that?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I blame Ed. Terrible decision amongst many others he did.
MM should have got an extra couple of years and told to help with the rebuild of the side before handing the reigns to Buckley.

Great coach was MM although his control of power was at times sickening as was Ed.

But the list didn't need a rebuild, we're talking about a team that went 20-2 with the highest ever percentage recorded in the comp.

Yeah sure, some crafty trade ins (like we did last off season) would've been likely, that's not a rebuild.

What would've been optimal for us was Buckley going to North for the senior job, not taking over such a team with zero senior experience.

 

[76woodenspooners]

But the list didn't need a rebuild, we're talking about a team that went 20-2 with the highest ever percentage recorded in the comp.

The 2012 squad wasn’t much different to the 2011 squad?

Wholesale changes didn’t happen until 2013.

 

[No SPIN]

But you don't have proof of this, no one does, you're just speculating to defend the decision because the reality is too hard to swallow 'oh the succession plan sent a rocket up Micks bum, that's why we won the flag'

What we do know is putting a totally green coach to lead such a team is likely to fail, and it did, and the club allowed it.

No one can argue the above sentence.

'You remember optimism' I don't, and personally I could see disaster coming and when we won the flag after the announcement it softened the blow and then the likelihood happened.

What proof have you got it didn’t?

I have conclusive proof that it did - including a Premiership Cup.

You suggest a dynasty as if it was a certain outcome with MM continuing, and conveniently ignore Geel completely demolished our game plan in 2011.

So MM would have faced a complete restructure to propel us to a dynasty, not to mention the possibility of injuries also derailing subsequent seasons - as actually happened.

So I have proof the succession plan gave us a flag.
Your attempts to discredit this fact is disingenuous.

If you want proof of optimism go and do a search it’s not hard mate.

And finally- you do realize the succession plan ended when MM walked away from his contract.
Any subsequent history is completely irrelevant and therefore unrelated to the plan.